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Future of the UND Football Program


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1 minute ago, Sioux>Bison said:

Yeah if we want to maximize our return on higher salaries we should be investing in Basketball…….. Is UND the average when it comes to salaries? If so I wouldn’t say under paying

Compared to what?


All FCS programs? Sure.

Dakota football programs (USD, NDSU, SDSU) - no

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10 minutes ago, UNDBIZ said:

I won't deny that UND needs to improve its coaching salaries, but it is difficult when the comparison is always to the school in Fargo.  I'm not saying it shouldn't be, as we want to compete with them, but it's difficult.  For example, Montana's head coach makes less than Bubba, but you'd think we're severely underpaying everybody because the comparison is always to ndsu.

Not really true. Including incentives, Bubba makes around $250k. Bobby Hauck made about $300k back in 2019. If Bubba made more than Hauck in 2020, it was only because of the Big Sky cancelling the 2020 season and Montana only scheduling two games in the spring. By my quick look at Hauck's contract, he should have made something in the neighborhood of $330k-$340k this season.

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2 minutes ago, Hammersmith said:

Not really true. Including incentives, Bubba makes around $250k. Bobby Hauck made about $300k back in 2019. If Bubba made more than Hauck in 2020, it was only because of the Big Sky cancelling the 2020 season and Montana only scheduling two games in the spring. By my quick look at Hauck's contract, he should have made something in the neighborhood of $330k-$340k this season.

Hmm, I guess I'm not sure on incentives.  His salary is $10k less than Bubba's, but fair point.

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40 minutes ago, UND1983 said:

This narrative always slays me.  Do you think by chance he has better facilities, training table, more money, and wait for it.....better players than everyone else to work with?

During the run of the last decade. NDSU has had something like three head coaches, four starting quarterbacks, more than half a dozen coordinators, three presidents(counting an interim), two athletic directors, and a complete turnover of the booster organization leadership, but they've only had one head S&C coach. That's the first clue.

Second, probably no football coach has as much one on one time with the players than the S&C coach. The players are in the weight room most every day of the week, and most are there 10-12 months a year. That is a HUGE amount of one on one time. This is even more true of the first and second year players. Kramer is the one they spend most of their time with during their redshirt year. 

Third, Kramer keeps up on modern S&C techniques better than the average S&C coach. He was at the US Olympic Training Center when they completely revamped their training program. He works with Sanford Sports Medicine to bring in new techniques. Kramer, Sanford and science are the reason why NDSU players don't cramp up late in the game, even down south. NDSU is also on the cutting edge of using technology to reduce injuries and fatigue. Many/most NDSU players now have GPS/RFID sensors in their practice uniforms so that their speed and agility can be tracked in real-time. When players start to slow down in a practice(even just 5%-10%), they are pulled and rested. Practice injuries are far more likely to happen when the body begins to get tired. That little drop off in speed is the first indicator. Those are just a couple of the many things NDSU/Kramer/Sanford do behind the scenes to stay at the cutting edge.

Fourth, culture. Whenever NDSU football is talked about, the word that almost always gets brought up is culture. Guess where that culture gets instilled? It's in the weight room every morning and afternoon. Sure, the older players pass it on to the younger players, but it's drilled in and reinforced in the weight room. That's Kramer's doing.

Finally, there's his personality. Kramer pushes the players to push through the pain. To realize they can do more than they think they are capable of. That the pain doesn't have to stop them. NDSU lines play hard. They know they can take the pain because they've done it many times before in the weight room and in practice. When you see opponent's D-lines start to break down against the Bison O-line in the third and fourth quarters, it's not just because of fatigue. It's because the Bison are still willing to hit at 100% power late in the game, while the opponents start to get afraid of the pain and psychologically aren't able to play at 100%. They start to flinch at contact. It's the cause of the "Bison hangover" many teams have the week after playing NDSU. Stig has been pretty open about it. This isn't quite as true as it was in the early part of the run because Bohl, Klieman and Entz all have slightly different styles, but a lot of it is still there.

The amazing thing is that Kramer can do all this without doing it in a mentally/emotionally damaging way. There have been lots of coaches of all types that use unhealthy methods to push their players. Thus far, Kramer appears to understand the line and pushes them in a healthy way. I don't know if I've ever heard a former player bad mouth Kramer. With the unhealthy coaches, you normally get a group that hates them and a group that defends them to the death. I haven't heard about groups of former players that hate Kramer, only those that like and respect him.

 

Notice that with the exception of the GPS sensors, none of the above is about facilities, money, or the quality of incoming players? I fear the Bison dynasty will end shortly after Kramer's daughters are about to graduate high school and he accepts an FBS job for a lot more money(he's had multiple offers, but his family status has kept him here - divorced with younger daughters living in town with their mother). I have no doubts NDSU will be able to find a replacement that uses cutting edge techniques, or can instill a program culture, or can get the total respect of the players, or can push the players beyond their limits, or can do it in a healthy way, but I don't know if NDSU will be able to find a replacement that can do ALL those things. The third and fourth years after Kramer leaves are going to be very interesting.

 

Of course this is all my opinion, and it's as an observer to the program not an insider, but I think I'm hitting pretty close to the mark. And I think the NDSU athletic department and coaches must agree since Kramer's salary is right in line with the coordinators, and both Bohl and Klieman asked Kramer to come with them when they left(Bohl reeeeaaaly wanted him).

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Secondhand knowledge I've gleaned from some former Bison football players...but I'm surprised NDSU hasn't created an endowment to fund Jim Kramer's salary at a P5 level...he's quite impressive...and the results do speak for themselves!

Also...I know where a lot of our people stand regarding our guy...and I think the results speak for themselves at times too...

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Is Entz the only Bison coach to get  a bonus for winning a title or do the  coordinators share in that?   I remember hearing once that either Bohl or Kleiman got paid dearly for that last win.

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From my limited contacts with insiders in college football programs, it appears there are a lot of programs that encourage players to do whatever it takes to make strength and weight gains, whether they do it legally or otherwise.  NCAA testing is notoriously poor at identifying cheaters, to the point where you have to be stupid to get caught.  Those are nice comments about Kramer, but do we really believe there isn't something else NDSU is doing "better" than most other schools?  History almost always shows long runs of dominating performance to be tainted.

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8 hours ago, UND-FB-FAN said:

UND football is severely underpaying everybody. Period. 
 

it’s not just NDSU comparison. 
 

do better. If you’re UND athletic department, look beyond f***king hockey. 

Nobody from the Hockey program snuck into the huddle at the NDSU game and said "go for it".  If we beat the Bison just think of the improved attendance for the rest of the season which translates into more $.  

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10 minutes ago, nodak651 said:

Good luck finding a better coach with the same money.

I agree football needs more money - however, the program needs to generate some enthusiasm from the fanbase.  Increase attendance and hopefully inspire some donors.  Football shoots itself in the foot repeatedly.  It's hard to see first game enthusiasm and compare it to the end of the season.  I don't know any donors who want to shovel in more money for a couple more years of Bubba Ball.  And I believe that there are many good coaches out there that would love to more up and could outcoach Bubba in their sleep.   

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19 minutes ago, Irish said:

I agree football needs more money - however, the program needs to generate some enthusiasm from the fanbase.  Increase attendance and hopefully inspire some donors.  Football shoots itself in the foot repeatedly.  It's hard to see first game enthusiasm and compare it to the end of the season.  I don't know any donors who want to shovel in more money for a couple more years of Bubba Ball.  And I believe that there are many good coaches out there that would love to more up and could outcoach Bubba in their sleep.   

They don't have to give it to Bubba.  Put the money towards keeping assistant coaches in place or hiring better ones.  I just don't see how you can be so critical of Bubba while discounting the fact that he has to find  a coach for 40k.  No wonder our running back got run over by our WR in the Utah Game.  

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I was looking other night at coaching salaries i see that Craig Bohl was paid over 1.5 million dollars but when Vigen was his assistant coach he was paid $300,000. dollars way more than Bubba is making as head coach. He then went to Montana State where his contract there with incentives this hear will pay him way over the $300,000. so were definitely behind in pay structure. If were behind on pay structure i betting were way behind on lot of other things as well that makes difference in recruiting players but things like that are difference when we have been close to beating upper tier teams. 

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NCAA has some new rulings…each of the 3 divisions will “govern itself.” Athletes May receive “educational and other benefits in accordance with guidelines established by their NCAA division.”  And a sport-by-sport approach for transgender athletes.

I like the old ways….too many changes to keep track of.

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12 hours ago, Sioux95 said:

From my limited contacts with insiders in college football programs, it appears there are a lot of programs that encourage players to do whatever it takes to make strength and weight gains, whether they do it legally or otherwise.  NCAA testing is notoriously poor at identifying cheaters, to the point where you have to be stupid to get caught.  Those are nice comments about Kramer, but do we really believe there isn't something else NDSU is doing "better" than most other schools?  History almost always shows long runs of dominating performance to be tainted.

I'd personally put the recipe to NDSU strength success as a combination of better quality athletes coming in and a strong culture that doesn't allow for mediocrity.

That being said, if NDSU was actually "pushing the envelope" (for all you Bison rubes I wholeheartedly don't believe they are from a program level)...then why aren't we??  If you're not cheating you're not trying...Do we sleep better at night going 5-6 and doing things "the right way"?!?  

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Said it before, and I will say it again.  How many more football Alumni are there than hockey Alumni?   It's time for some of those Alumni to step up and support the program. Roughly 70 more alumni every year, and if each of them gave another $1000, and multiply that over the past 30 years or so, and you have quite a bit of money.   Yes, the administration has to focus more on the other programs, but I think if they see a passionate alumni base in those programs it is that much harder to overlook. 

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22 hours ago, Kab said:

What is the poverty level for a family of 3 in Grand Forks ?

even a single person in GF would be hard to make a living at that salary 

starting wage at McDonalds in Williston is probably $36,000 

12 years ago I took my first corporate job at the exciting salary of $29k in Fargo. Married, with no kids at the time, we were able to live comfortable and start saving for our future house and family. To be competitive, we should be able to offer a higher salary, but as to whether or not a $50k salary is enough to live on, it absolutely is if you are smart with it. 

If you're single and can't live on $50k, you need to reevaluate your expenses.

If you're married, then you likely have a second income to factor in.

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19 hours ago, Hammersmith said:

During the run of the last decade. NDSU has had something like three head coaches, four starting quarterbacks, more than half a dozen coordinators, three presidents(counting an interim), two athletic directors, and a complete turnover of the booster organization leadership, but they've only had one head S&C coach. That's the first clue.

Second, probably no football coach has as much one on one time with the players than the S&C coach. The players are in the weight room most every day of the week, and most are there 10-12 months a year. That is a HUGE amount of one on one time. This is even more true of the first and second year players. Kramer is the one they spend most of their time with during their redshirt year. 

Third, Kramer keeps up on modern S&C techniques better than the average S&C coach. He was at the US Olympic Training Center when they completely revamped their training program. He works with Sanford Sports Medicine to bring in new techniques. Kramer, Sanford and science are the reason why NDSU players don't cramp up late in the game, even down south. NDSU is also on the cutting edge of using technology to reduce injuries and fatigue. Many/most NDSU players now have GPS/RFID sensors in their practice uniforms so that their speed and agility can be tracked in real-time. When players start to slow down in a practice(even just 5%-10%), they are pulled and rested. Practice injuries are far more likely to happen when the body begins to get tired. That little drop off in speed is the first indicator. Those are just a couple of the many things NDSU/Kramer/Sanford do behind the scenes to stay at the cutting edge.

Fourth, culture. Whenever NDSU football is talked about, the word that almost always gets brought up is culture. Guess where that culture gets instilled? It's in the weight room every morning and afternoon. Sure, the older players pass it on to the younger players, but it's drilled in and reinforced in the weight room. That's Kramer's doing.

Finally, there's his personality. Kramer pushes the players to push through the pain. To realize they can do more than they think they are capable of. That the pain doesn't have to stop them. NDSU lines play hard. They know they can take the pain because they've done it many times before in the weight room and in practice. When you see opponent's D-lines start to break down against the Bison O-line in the third and fourth quarters, it's not just because of fatigue. It's because the Bison are still willing to hit at 100% power late in the game, while the opponents start to get afraid of the pain and psychologically aren't able to play at 100%. They start to flinch at contact. It's the cause of the "Bison hangover" many teams have the week after playing NDSU. Stig has been pretty open about it. This isn't quite as true as it was in the early part of the run because Bohl, Klieman and Entz all have slightly different styles, but a lot of it is still there.

The amazing thing is that Kramer can do all this without doing it in a mentally/emotionally damaging way. There have been lots of coaches of all types that use unhealthy methods to push their players. Thus far, Kramer appears to understand the line and pushes them in a healthy way. I don't know if I've ever heard a former player bad mouth Kramer. With the unhealthy coaches, you normally get a group that hates them and a group that defends them to the death. I haven't heard about groups of former players that hate Kramer, only those that like and respect him.

 

Notice that with the exception of the GPS sensors, none of the above is about facilities, money, or the quality of incoming players? I fear the Bison dynasty will end shortly after Kramer's daughters are about to graduate high school and he accepts an FBS job for a lot more money(he's had multiple offers, but his family status has kept him here - divorced with younger daughters living in town with their mother). I have no doubts NDSU will be able to find a replacement that uses cutting edge techniques, or can instill a program culture, or can get the total respect of the players, or can push the players beyond their limits, or can do it in a healthy way, but I don't know if NDSU will be able to find a replacement that can do ALL those things. The third and fourth years after Kramer leaves are going to be very interesting.

 

Of course this is all my opinion, and it's as an observer to the program not an insider, but I think I'm hitting pretty close to the mark. And I think the NDSU athletic department and coaches must agree since Kramer's salary is right in line with the coordinators, and both Bohl and Klieman asked Kramer to come with them when they left(Bohl reeeeaaaly wanted him).

I’m quite certain both Kramer and his son would take exception to you saying he has two daughters, but the rest of your post seems on point.

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51 minutes ago, siouxfan512 said:

12 years ago I took my first corporate job at the exciting salary of $29k in Fargo. Married, with no kids at the time, we were able to live comfortable and start saving for our future house and family. To be competitive, we should be able to offer a higher salary, but as to whether or not a $50k salary is enough to live on, it absolutely is if you are smart with it. 

If you're single and can't live on $50k, you need to reevaluate your expenses.

If you're married, then you likely have a second income to factor in.

Problem out west is rent is 2 to $3,000 a month, it has come down a little.

that takes half your wage, taxes take another 25% so it doesn’t leave much 

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30 minutes ago, Kab said:

Problem out west is rent is 2 to $3,000 a month, it has come down a little.

that takes half your wage, taxes take another 25% so it doesn’t leave much 

Right, I was referring more to $50k for a coaching job in Grand Forks as very livable.

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4 hours ago, Texas rancher said:

I’m quite certain both Kramer and his son would take exception to you saying he has two daughters, but the rest of your post seems on point.

Is this one of those "respect the pronouns" things? ;) :D 

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