Future of the UND Football Program

[zonadub]

9 hours ago, Sioux94 said:

Ok that's what I thought.  But when he said.....would DeBoer accept the salary Bubba got....it made me question myself lol.   Yes he would have accepted.....or why apply and keep yourself in the running down to the final 2. 

Just saying that great coaches will come to Grand Forks at the salary UND pays. The choice was there. The decision was made.

Yes, he would probably be on to higher paying positions by now. DeBoer was a rising young star who would have had a shorter career at UND than Schweigert has. But the salary at UND would not have stopped him from coming to UND on his way to a P5 Head Coaching position.

And he would have been able to hire assistant coaches at the salaries paid by UND. It’s not just the money, it’s getting the right people.

[nodak651]

1 hour ago, zonadub said:

Just saying that great coaches will come to Grand Forks at the salary UND pays. The choice was there. The decision was made.

Yes, he would probably be on to higher paying positions by now. DeBoer was a rising young star who would have had a shorter career at UND than Schweigert has. But the salary at UND would not have stopped him from coming to UND on his way to a P5 Head Coaching position.

And he would have been able to hire assistant coaches at the salaries paid by UND. It’s not just the money, it’s getting the right people.

Easy to say in hindsight.  Tons of young talented coaches who move up to D1 programs fail, and it's not always the coaches fault when it happens either.  It's just not that easy... would he have the same career trajectory if he came here?  

[zonadub]

There were many on SS.com and in the gobc that wanted Bubba because they felt that this will be his last coaching gig until he retires. That appears to be playing out. Others would have preferred a younger, up-and-coming coach.

But my original post was intended to say that coaches, both head coaches and assistant coaches will come, and it’s not always about the money. The last several pages of posts has been an ongoing discussion that UND can’t get good coaches because the pay is too low.

[nodak651]

32 minutes ago, zonadub said:

There were many on SS.com and in the gobc that wanted Bubba because they felt that this will be his last coaching gig until he retires. That appears to be playing out. Others would have preferred a younger, up-and-coming coach.

But my original post was intended to say that coaches, both head coaches and assistant coaches will come, and it’s not always about the money. The last several pages of posts has been an ongoing discussion that UND can’t get good coaches because the pay is too low.

You make it sound like it's easy to pick a up and coming coach. For example, Sather fits that description pretty well, but how is that going so far?  Would DeBoer be where he is today if he got the UND job?  Is it certain he actually would have done better than Bubba?  His non UND success doesn't mean that he would be successful here.  Maybe he was riding the coat tales of head coaches?  Maybe Bubba would have done better if he had the budget to hire a better OC than Rudoph.  

[The Sicatoka]

46 minutes ago, nodak651 said:

You make it sound like it's easy to pick a up and coming coach. For example, Sather fits that description pretty well, but how is that going so far?  Would DeBoer be where he is today if he got the UND job?  Is it certain he actually would have done better than Bubba?  His non UND success doesn't mean that he would be successful here.  Maybe he was riding the coat tales of head coaches?  Maybe Bubba would have done better if he had the budget to hire a better OC than Rudoph.  

Those are all great questions, but all we have to evaluate is actual performance. 

DeBoer has gone from USF Cougs purple to UW Huskies purple in 12 seasons. 

[zonadub]

You finally said something about the budget. That is the crux of my post.

I am not saying that picking a different coach would have produced different results. My point is that a young up and coming coach would have come here for the same budget as the current staff. And that he could have hired other up and coming assistants with the same budget that is currently being allocated to the football program.

All the hand-wringing about salaries does not exclude the opportunity to hire good coaches. In fact, Bubba has had several on staff that have moved on to greener pastures. That is what assistants do. At least the good ones. And it is not exclusive to FCS programs.

[SiouxFan100]

GENERALLY money matters

[Sioux94]

1 hour ago, nodak651 said:

You make it sound like it's easy to pick a up and coming coach. For example, Sather fits that description pretty well, but how is that going so far?  Would DeBoer be where he is today if he got the UND job?  Is it certain he actually would have done better than Bubba?  His non UND success doesn't mean that he would be successful here.  Maybe he was riding the coat tales of head coaches?  Maybe Bubba would have done better if he had the budget to hire a better OC than Rudoph.  

No it's not 100% certain he would have done better, but I would absolutely bet we would have more than 1 playoff win in 9 years under Deboer.  Bubba completely wasted 5 years with Rudy.  We didn't have the 1983 Washington Redskins OL to run Rudy ball and make it work.  At a minumum he kept Rudy 1-2 years too long.  I can also pretty much guarantee Deboer wouldn't have run a fake punt QB sneak with 2 yards to go.....with the lead.....from his own 20 in a defensive battle...when the opponent was in a goaline defense. 

Deboer likely wouldn't be at where he is at if he came to UND.  He would have spent at least probably 5 years or so at UND, then taken an FBS position somewhere.  Fortunately for him he didn't get the job, pretty amazing how his career path ended up turning out after that.  I agree though, you never know on the younger coaches......but in his case....we definitely missed out.  I honestly don't know how it could be argued otherwise, and I'm not a Bubba hater. 

[Mama Sue]

Morning paper: Gopher football salary increases….

Def Cor boost of $136,000 for a total of $800,000. He had a top 10 defense the article said

RB coach got a $72,000 for a total $400,000. cornerbacks coach got an Increase of $61,000i to $380,000.  Off line coach got an increase $54,000 to a total of $465,000. Receivers coach got another $34,000 to total $430,000. Special teams got $25,000 for a total $345,000. The offensive coach got a salary of $625,000. The new def line coach will get $420,000 compared to $350,000 for the previous one. 
pJ Fleck got a 7 year contact worth  $35 mil.

WOW

[Midwestern Hawk]

21 hours ago, Sioux94 said:

No it's not 100% certain he would have done better, but I would absolutely bet we would have more than 1 playoff win in 9 years under Deboer.  Bubba completely wasted 5 years with Rudy.  We didn't have the 1983 Washington Redskins OL to run Rudy ball and make it work.  At a minumum he kept Rudy 1-2 years too long.  I can also pretty much guarantee Deboer wouldn't have run a fake punt QB sneak with 2 yards to go.....with the lead.....from his own 20 in a defensive battle...when the opponent was in a goaline defense. 

Deboer likely wouldn't be at where he is at if he came to UND.  He would have spent at least probably 5 years or so at UND, then taken an FBS position somewhere.  Fortunately for him he didn't get the job, pretty amazing how his career path ended up turning out after that.  I agree though, you never know on the younger coaches......but in his case....we definitely missed out.  I honestly don't know how it could be argued otherwise, and I'm not a Bubba hater. 

Good points.  Bubba is a great ambassador for UND.  His record says he is an average to slightly above average head football coach.  Deboer's record says something else and that there is a much higher upside.  If Bubba coaches at UND another five years he will likely make the playoffs 1-2 more times and we will have a minimum of 3 wins a season and a maximum of 8 wins and very likely lots of 6-5 and 5-6.

[zonadub]

3 hours ago, Mama Sue said:

Morning paper: Gopher football salary increases….

Def Cor boost of $136,000 for a total of $800,000. He had a top 10 defense the article said

RB coach got a $72,000 for a total $400,000. cornerbacks coach got an Increase of $61,000i to $380,000.  Off line coach got an increase $54,000 to a total of $465,000. Receivers coach got another $34,000 to total $430,000. Special teams got $25,000 for a total $345,000. The offensive coach got a salary of $625,000. The new def line coach will get $420,000 compared to $350,000 for the previous one. 
pJ Fleck got a 7 year contact worth  $35 mil.

WOW

The difference between P5 and G5 is greater the the difference between G5 and FCS. Coordinators each making more than UND and NDSU head coaches combined (plus UND’s assistants). Position coaches salaries above what the North Dakota head coaches are. Talk about big business.

 

yes, WOW!

 

 

 

and yes, money matters. no way ND is in that ballgame.

[SiouxFan100]

Do we have any current coaches that have the potential to move to the big time programs? 
 

but than again - money might not matter

[Irish]

I agree that more money is needed.  I wish that the good old boys that lobbied hard for Bubba would help a little more in financing his tenure.  Also, check out the attendance under Lennon when we were DII and compare it to the Muss and Bubba years. A winning program would give us increased revenue and there would be more money to help pay coaches. When things go south in a season the Alerus becomes almost deserted.   It is a bit circular - to raise more money it helps to have a winning team and to have a winning team you need money to pay good coaches.  Frankly our football program has been floundering since the Muss hire.  We seem to have a desire to stick with mediocrity far too long.  When NDSU fired Babich he was 46-22 but had one bad year and wasn't winning championships.  We don't seem to have the willpower to demand a winner.

[UND-FB-FAN]

Goes without saying, it has [apparently] been incredibly challenging for UND football to raise funds. Proof? Just look at the pathetic subpar salaries the UND coaches currently have. Compare that with conference peers and you then have your proof

So, now that we have the obvious problem identified, how do we fix it? How does UND raise more for coaches salaries? Or… where does UND allocate it from? Hard to not knock on the athletic department given this. You get what you pay for, period. You have to invest to get a return. Etc. etc. etc. Lastly, the other massive funding issue: need to improve facilities further to keep pace with NDSU and SDSU. 

[AJS]

Another general question. Has a school ever hired an up and coming coach and hit a home run? That coach uses the school as a stepping stone, builds the program up and then leaves it in a better position then when they started? Hypothetically, that could happen, right? My building frustration is that scenario seems impossible to happen at UND. 

How did UND get here? Optics wise it seems like NDSU / SDSU has nothing but money and UND can't afford anything. It's so sad what this athletic department has become. 

 

Edit: Although this is Football question, my frustration is more with AD as a whole. I think back to 2017 thinking that was a low point and we seem to be right back there in 2022. I do think the Football program is in a better place, but that's offset by the Men's BBall program. 

[Midwestern Hawk]

9 minutes ago, AJS said:

Another general question. Has a school ever hired an up and coming coach and hit a home run? That coach uses the school as a stepping stone, builds the program up and then leaves it in a better position then when they started? Hypothetically, that could happen, right? My building frustration is that scenario seems impossible to happen at UND. 

How did UND get here? Optics wise it seems like NDSU / SDSU has nothing but money and UND can't afford anything. It's so sad what this athletic department has become. 

Only way that changes is to beat NDSU on the field.  WIn and the $ will follow.

[UND1983]

16 minutes ago, AJS said:

Another general question. Has a school ever hired an up and coming coach and hit a home run? That coach uses the school as a stepping stone, builds the program up and then leaves it in a better position then when they started? Hypothetically, that could happen, right? My building frustration is that scenario seems impossible to happen at UND. 

How did UND get here? Optics wise it seems like NDSU / SDSU has nothing but money and UND can't afford anything. It's so sad what this athletic department has become. 

 

Edit: Although this is Football question, my frustration is more with AD as a whole. I think back to 2017 thinking that was a low point and we seem to be right back there in 2022. I do think the Football program is in a better place, but that's offset by the Men's BBall program. 

UND didn't have much money in the 80's 90's and 2000's either.  They just got better players and started winning.

[Siouxperfan7]

45 minutes ago, AJS said:

Another general question. Has a school ever hired an up and coming coach and hit a home run? That coach uses the school as a stepping stone, builds the program up and then leaves it in a better position then when they started? Hypothetically, that could happen, right? My building frustration is that scenario seems impossible to happen at UND. 

How did UND get here? Optics wise it seems like NDSU / SDSU has nothing but money and UND can't afford anything. It's so sad what this athletic department has become. 

 

Edit: Although this is Football question, my frustration is more with AD as a whole. I think back to 2017 thinking that was a low point and we seem to be right back there in 2022. I do think the Football program is in a better place, but that's offset by the Men's BBall program. 

Bunning and Mussman. played a huge role in getting us behind the rest of the Dakota schools.  RT deciding not to go D1 when JAcks and the Bison went also gets some blame as well.

[VMeister]

2 hours ago, Siouxperfan7 said:

Bunning and Mussman. played a huge role in getting us behind the rest of the Dakota schools.

I think Mussman did ok with what he was handed:  low budget, no real conference, nickname issue.

[The Sicatoka]

3 hours ago, AJS said:

Another general question. Has a school ever hired an up and coming coach and hit a home run? That coach uses the school as a stepping stone, builds the program up and then leaves it in a better position then when they started?

I assume you mean "a school" as UND, and yes, but he died recently: Bill Fitch. 

[nodak651]

On 1/29/2022 at 12:25 PM, Irish said:

I agree that more money is needed.  I wish that the good old boys that lobbied hard for Bubba would help a little more in financing his tenure.  Also, check out the attendance under Lennon when we were DII and compare it to the Muss and Bubba years. A winning program would give us increased revenue and there would be more money to help pay coaches. When things go south in a season the Alerus becomes almost deserted.   It is a bit circular - to raise more money it helps to have a winning team and to have a winning team you need money to pay good coaches.  Frankly our football program has been floundering since the Muss hire.  We seem to have a desire to stick with mediocrity far too long.  When NDSU fired Babich he was 46-22 but had one bad year and wasn't winning championships.  We don't seem to have the willpower to demand a winner.

No doubt better attendance would help, as it would also increase the % cut of concession sales that UND Football gets.  I still think the agreement with the REA is the biggest issue.  REA takes 52% of ticket sales, pockets any Ticketmaster fee revenue, and makes UND pay CC fees. REA allocated $0 income to UND the previous two years, as documented in the NDUS annual reports. Then UND still has to pay for it's use of the Alerus.  Why else would Kennedy fight so hard to (unsuccessfully) renegotiate the contract with the REA.  

[gfhockey]

54 minutes ago, nodak651 said:

No doubt better attendance would help, as it would also increase the % cut of concession sales that UND Football gets.  I still think the agreement with the REA is the biggest issue.  REA takes 52% of ticket sales, pockets any Ticketmaster fee revenue, and makes UND pay CC fees. REA allocated $0 income to UND the previous two years, as documented in the NDUS annual reports. Then UND still has to pay for it's use of the Alerus.  Why else would Kennedy fight so hard to (unsuccessfully) renegotiate the contract with the REA.  

Rea paid und zero last two years?

[nodak651]

2 hours ago, gfhockey said:

Rea paid und zero last two years?

https://www.nd.gov/auditor/2021-ndus-annual-financial-report page 63

https://www.nd.gov/auditor/2020-ndus-annual-financial-report page 63/64

[gfhockey]

30 minutes ago, nodak651 said:

https://www.nd.gov/auditor/2021-ndus-annual-financial-report page 63

https://www.nd.gov/auditor/2020-ndus-annual-financial-report page 63/64

That isn’t good

[FSSD]

34 minutes ago, gfhockey said:

That isn’t good

I wonder how much of that COVID related.  Because revenue from attendance is down.