President Kennedy Message on Athletics

[southpaw]

Just now, geaux_sioux said:

Hmm how do I put this..... UND women's hockey as a top 5 program drew jack !@#$ while UND football in the worst stretch in 30 years with a lame duck coach still out drew the women's hockey team 8 fold at least. Oh, and the football tickets actually cost money, so there's that. Football will be in the black soon. Women's hockey will always be in the red.

I'll preface this... I in no way want football cut.  I don't think women's hockey should be cut, but I won't be surprised if it is.  However, if we're looking at financials, Women's hockey isn't the worst program to keep around.

When was the last time football was in the black?  Are another 3,000 people a game going to cover the 2.5 million dollar deficit each year?  

And since none of these sports are in a vacuum thanks to Title 9, you also have to add in the women's sports that must counter-act the 63 scholarships football gives out.  That's 126 (Great math, right?) total scholarships just because of football.  Cut football and you save at least three times the amount cutting women's hockey would.

 

[geaux_sioux]

7 minutes ago, southpaw said:

I'll preface this... I in no way want football cut.  I don't think women's hockey should be cut, but I won't be surprised if it is.  However, if we're looking at financials, Women's hockey isn't the worst program to keep around.

When was the last time football was in the black?  Are another 3,000 people a game going to cover the 2.5 million dollar deficit each year?  

And since none of these sports are in a vacuum thanks to Title 9, you also have to add in the women's sports that must counter-act the 63 scholarships football gives out.  That's 126 (Great math, right?) total scholarships just because of football.  Cut football and you save at least three times the amount cutting women's hockey would.

 

And lose a ton of revenue potential. Tickets, donations, and sponsors are what can set football apart from the other sports, same with womens hockey. Step one for digging football out of the red is/was winning. That's on it's way already. The second step is the donations and sponsorships side. Winning helps bring back interest and investment. 

[SWSiouxMN]

Is this an all or nothing thing with women's hockey? Could there be a way to keep it but lessen the blow on the budget? I'm not too privy on budgets (which is why I got my degree in the west end of campus and not the east ).

[dakotadan]

38 minutes ago, geaux_sioux said:

Hmm how do I put this..... UND women's hockey as a top 5 program drew jack !@#$ while UND football in the worst stretch in 30 years with a lame duck coach still out drew the women's hockey team 8 fold at least. Oh, and the football tickets actually cost money, so there's that. Football will be in the black soon. Women's hockey will always be in the red.

The football team out drew the women's hockey team. They better hang a banner for that in the Al. 

[Goon]

4 hours ago, geaux_sioux said:

WHockey isn't holding football back. Football held itself back by hiring the wrong coach and letting him run the program into the ground. Whockey is holding the basketballs and volleyball back. 

 

Good point, it's not Brian Idalski's fault that UND hired a bad head coach to lead the UND football team. Said problem has been fixed. 

[SIOUXFAN97]

9 minutes ago, Goon said:

Good point, it's not Brian Idalski's fault that UND hired a bad head coach to lead the UND men's hockey team. Said problem has been fixed. 

fixed it for ya

[fightingsioux4life]

16 minutes ago, SIOUXFAN97 said:

fixed it for ya

You realize what will happen next, don't you?

[Cratter]

2 hours ago, dakotadan said:

The football team out drew the women's hockey team. They better hang a banner for that in the Al. 

UND womens hockey has had games where they out drew the football team.

[UND-FB-FAN]

On 8/26/2016 at 9:40 AM, southpaw said:

We had both in the early 2000's when I was a student and it was great.

I don't want to start a hockey vs football thread as I attend games for both teams despite living 1,000 miles away but with the current setup neither program is going to bring the national recognition.  NDSU has won five straight FCS titles and ESPN still ignores them on a consistent basis.

I think it comes down to who brings in the most money to help fund the other sports in the athletic department.  Hockey may have hit its max but it still seems like it is bigger than football ever will be as far as funding.

I do not agree. Did you catch ESPN's coverage last night? Quite good for that University and football program, I'd say.  

How about FCS national title coverage and the Wentz coverage?

[Stromer]

1 hour ago, Cratter said:

UND womens hockey has had games where they out drew the football team.

Curious as to when those games have occured. As far as I can see, the womens attendance record was set @ 5,835 in 2014 with $1 tickets against the gophers. Lowest (non playoff) home  football attendance in recent years that I came across was 5,916 in 2014 against Northern Arizona, which was an absolute embarrassment.

[geaux_sioux]

6 minutes ago, Stromer said:

Curious as to when those games have occured. As far as I can see, the womens attendance record was set @ 5,835 in 2014 with $1 tickets against the gophers. Lowest (non playoff) home  football attendance in recent years that I came across was 5,916 in 2014 against Northern Arizona, which was an absolute embarrassment.

Just imagine how many would have showed for 1$ ticket night

[geaux_sioux]

1 hour ago, Cratter said:

UND womens hockey has had games where they out drew the football team.

Who was your source on this one? gfhockey or siouxvolley? 

[UND-FB-FAN]

17 hours ago, farce poobah said:

Schlossman, as he usually does, hits it out of the park.

http://www.grandforksherald.com/sports/4103211-brad-schlossman-unds-athletics-committee-problematic

 

Schlossman references the potential personal biases of those in the committee, and with that, I figure it is appropriate to point out the possible personal biases of Schlossman and his article, as well. Obviously, women's hockey is one of the two primary sports that Schlossman covers, and with that, it is hard to imagine he can objectively assess the viability of women's hockey at UND. Yes, it would be ideal if those within the athletic department, whom Schlossman adores, could make the decisions on their own; however, the entire University of North Dakota is the ultimate sponsor for the athletic department. Furthermore, questionable decisions have been made by Faison and the department in the past, providing reason for wholesale assessment. 

Difficult decisions will have to be made. UND certainly over-funds some sports (relative to national average figures and potential growth models), and although there will be several disagreements during the process, the ultimate goal should be to better focus the resources. What is so wrong with using contemporary data on regional counterparts in order to formulate athletic department funding models? Sponsoring niche sports is unique, but is it really practical? How does the University of North Dakota define practical? Perhaps in growing the University's prospective student interest and current student-athlete extracurricular accomplishments, and if that's the case, then certain sports need to be further emphasized. I think it is safe to say many know which sports those are; if you are having a difficult time, look at the regional universities with similar enrollment/budget numbers as UND. 

It is far too early to criticize President Kennedy, in my opinion. I do appreciate and wholeheartedly agree with this statement from his letter to the UND IAC:

Quote

"Two strong factors frame this issue, requiring a careful balancing between them.

First, that competitive athletic programs offer many strategic benefits to a university. They not only provide amazing development experiences for our student athletes, but as St. John's Football Coach John Gagliardi was fond of saying, they also provide a front porch to a university that invites others to peek in at the wonderful things inside the house (our academic offerings). While I was primarily attracted to St. John's University and the University of Michigan for their solid academic offerings, their athletic renown was also a factor. I suspect the same is true for many of our students.

Secondly, we must have an athletics program that we can afford and that is held to operating within defined funding metrics." 

 

 

[Stromer]

24 minutes ago, UND-FB-FAN said:

Schlossman references the potential personal biases of those in the committee, and with that, I figure it is appropriate to point out the possible personal biases of Schlossman and his article, as well. Obviously, women's hockey is one of the two primary sports that Schlossman covers, and with that, it is hard to imagine he can objectively assess the viability of women's hockey at UND. 

 

 

His bias is coming through loud and clear on twitter. Feels that attendance of womens hockey should be compared to the infancy days of women's basketball, which occured at least a solid half century ago give or take a few decades. Not sure I see the relevance of that and more importantly it shows that he isn't seeing the big picture.

Nobody should expect every sport of the university to make money because it won't happen and thats not what college athetics were ever designed to do. But I don't think it's too much to ask for them to not run multi-million dollar deficits, especially "minor" sports which aren't bringing in significant donations, advertising revenue, or enrollment gains to help offset those loses.

[UNDvince97-01]

5 hours ago, southpaw said:

But UND football is allowed to lose even more until they bring in more than 10,000 fans a game?  Maybe at that point, season tickets will sell for more than $90.

Good points actually.  Glad you brought this up. Now you are talking potential.  Supply and demand for a winning program.

Here's a look at just a few current trends for UND Football:
- Winning percentage: UP
- Program perception: UP
- Recruiting: UP
- Season ticket sales: UP
- Overall ticket sales: UP
- Potential for hosting playoff game(s): UP
- Guarantee payouts from FBS schools: UP

• 300k in 2014 from SJSU
• 325k in 2015 from WY
• 350k in 2016 from BGSU
• 450k in 2017 from Utah
• 500k in 2018 from Washington

From the 2013-14 and 2014-15 FY numbers...

- Summer camp revenues: UP (night and day from 2013 to 2016)

• 28k in 2013
• 102k in 2014 (Bubba's 1st year)
• 2015 and 2016 camp revenue numbers havent been released yet, but all indications are that they will be way above 2014 numbers as participation was at an all-time high.

- Rent expense for Alerus: will be DOWN (High Performance Center)

• 154k in 2013
• 156k in 2014 (anyone have an idea what we are charged for a gameday at the Alerus?)

- Severance payments: DOWN and off the books

• 47k in 2013
• 36k in 2014

It appears President Kennedy is attempting to make the following all but imminent:

• Near term (5-10 yrs) potential for Football travel budget to be slashed in half (approximately 550k in 2014) for football specifically in the MVFC membership. 
• Entire athletic department (minus hockey and football) travel budget with potential to be cut in half in the event of a move to the Summit.

Will all that get UND Football into the black?  Maybe, maybe not.  Hosting playoff games could determine the answer to that question.  If we hosted 3 games like we did in 2001 and 2003, with even a 9,000 attendance average, the math starts to add up.

We havent even touched on the football program endowment (currently around 1.5 million) and/or annual gifts last year (2015-16) totaling around $400,000.  I believe there are approximately 900 living UND Football alums, the biggest representation by far of any athletic alumni base (obviously).  Over 120 years of history and tradition.  Strength in numbers in terms of ROI.

It's apples and oranges (comparing WH and FB financially), and I know a lot of people here are just being the devil's advocate regarding the expense side of UND Football, but I wanted to illustrate the discrepancy between the 2 programs as they stand - and it is large.  The cost per student athlete is double for womens hockey and the future potential for both sports are polar opposites.

Ill say it again - I didnt want to cut sports then, and I dont want to now.  However, we are essentially looking at the 2nd round of cuts in 6 months.  I think it's great we have had Olympians from UND because of womens hockey.  But outside of that, it simply doesnt offer much return.

So finally........

In comparison, what are the future trends, outlook and potential for womens hockey?  Is it feasible or justiifable long-term?  Return on the investment?

Honest questions at a time when we need to make some serious adjustments financially.

Sorry for the long post.

 

[SIOUXFAN97]

4 hours ago, fightingsioux4life said:

You realize what will happen next, don't you?

no, what?

[nd1sufan]

On August 16, 2016 at 5:02 PM, SIOUXFAN97 said:

ask NMSU...they crunched some numbers and said it would cost more to move down...depends on who you ask I guess but dropping unneeded sports would help.

That is because NMSU's only revenue stream from FB is guarantee games, which would drop from 4 to probaly one or two. They are not worried about being competitve on FBS.

[geaux_sioux]

1 hour ago, UNDvince97-01 said:

Good points actually.  Glad you brought this up. Now you are talking potential.  Supply and demand for a winning program.

Here's a look at just a few current trends for UND Football:
- Winning percentage: UP
- Program perception: UP
- Recruiting: UP
- Season ticket sales: UP
- Overall ticket sales: UP
- Potential for hosting playoff game(s): UP
- Guarantee payouts from FBS schools: UP

• 300k in 2014 from SJSU
• 325k in 2015 from WY
• 350k in 2016 from BGSU
• 450k in 2017 from Utah
• 500k in 2018 from Washington

From the 2013-14 and 2014-15 FY numbers...

- Summer camp revenues: UP (night and day from 2013 to 2016)

• 28k in 2013
• 102k in 2014 (Bubba's 1st year)
• 2015 and 2016 camp revenue numbers havent been released yet, but all indications are that they will be way above 2014 numbers as participation was at an all-time high.

- Rent expense for Alerus: will be DOWN (High Performance Center)

• 154k in 2013
• 156k in 2014 (anyone have an idea what we are charged for a gameday at the Alerus?)

- Severance payments: DOWN and off the books

• 47k in 2013
• 36k in 2014

It appears President Kennedy is attempting to make the following all but imminent:

• Near term (5-10 yrs) potential for Football travel budget to be slashed in half (approximately 550k in 2014) for football specifically in the MVFC membership. 
• Entire athletic department (minus hockey and football) travel budget with potential to be cut in half in the event of a move to the Summit.

Will all that get UND Football into the black?  Maybe, maybe not.  Hosting playoff games could determine the answer to that question.  If we hosted 3 games like we did in 2001 and 2003, with even a 9,000 attendance average, the math starts to add up.

We havent even touched on the football program endowment (currently around 1.5 million) and/or annual gifts last year (2015-16) totaling around $400,000.  I believe there are approximately 900 living UND Football alums, the biggest representation by far of any athletic alumni base (obviously).  Over 120 years of history and tradition.  Strength in numbers in terms of ROI.

It's apples and oranges (comparing WH and FB financially), and I know a lot of people here are just being the devil's advocate regarding the expense side of UND Football, but I wanted to illustrate the discrepancy between the 2 programs as they stand - and it is large.  The cost per student athlete is double for womens hockey and the future potential for both sports are polar opposites.

Ill say it again - I didnt want to cut sports then, and I dont want to now.  However, we are essentially looking at the 2nd round of cuts in 6 months.  I think it's great we have had Olympians from UND because of womens hockey.  But outside of that, it simply doesnt offer much return.

So finally........

In comparison, what are the future trends, outlook and potential for womens hockey?  Is it feasible or justiifable long-term?  Return on the investment?

Honest questions at a time when we need to make some serious adjustments financially.

Sorry for the long post.

 

 

[Sioux>Bison]

On August 27, 2016 at 2:40 PM, dakotadan said:

To say that one has fans and the other doesn't is false. From a football standpoint getting 8-9,000 fans at home games is nothing to brag about. Pretty sad actually. Women's hockey draws virtually the same as men's basketball, women's basketball, and the volleyball programs. 

To say that one has huge national exposure potential and one does not is also false. NEITHER program has huge national exposure potential.

 

I'm pretty sure football has huge potential for being on ESPN highlights/scores to national broadcasts. If moo u can make it big nationally Then UND can too. Look at their NFL recruits making news too. football at UND will only get bigger and better.

man our hockey only crowd is annoying. Women's hockey is good for developing Olympians in a sport that no one watches or cares about on the women's level.

[Blackheart]

7 hours ago, southpaw said:

When was the last time football was in the black?  Are another 3,000 people a game going to cover the 2.5 million dollar deficit each year?  

And since none of these sports are in a vacuum thanks to Title 9, you also have to add in the women's sports that must counter-act the 63 scholarships football gives out.  That's 126 (Great math, right?) total scholarships just because of football.  Cut football and you save at least three times the amount cutting women's hockey would.

 

So cut both football and Women's hockey and we are all set, right?

[sioux24/7]

10 hours ago, nodakhoops said:

- UND has had countless Olympians and some of the best players in the world and no one goes. Can you imagine if WBB had Diana Tarasi and Lindsey Whalen how many people would go.

Side note, Lindsay Whalen did almost come here. 

[Shawn-O]

North Dakota women's hockey noteworthy accomplishment: 

The Lammy twins transferred from Minnesota.

That is all.  

[Shawn-O]

Investing time and money into events that people like to go and watch is a good thing. 

[UNDBIZ]

21 hours ago, southpaw said:

You also must not have read the article because even Schlossman didn't say that.

But look at this... I just had to go back a few pages and a few people were advocating moving the WH budget to the football or basketball programs:

None of those quotes mention football.  

[nodak651]

You guys will want to click this link.

https://und.edu/president/_files/docs/ncaa-report-2015.pdf