Who would UND hire?

[UND1983]

29 minutes ago, UND-FB-FAN said:

See above post. Those institutions still have FB success - actually, Duke, Kansas, North Carolina and Kentucky have very good FB teams this year (two are 4-0 and two are 3-1). Difference? Active athletic departments to find the right leadership for the program - not afraid to find someone different if it’s just not working. 

The Kentucky FB and BB coaches just got into it over support and such.  Their FB is an afterthought no matter how good they do

[gundy1124]

21 hours ago, jdub27 said:

As someone who sat through a portion of the interviews with all of the finalists, I'd disagree on that. 

How was that Eastern Washington athletic budget when he left?  That probably wasn't #1 on his resume. 

Why make a lateral FCS move if you're Chaves, maybe to share his great hockey background?

No wow factor besides staying awake at meetings.  But luckily for the AD Interview committee you can always say, "Hey, at least I wasn't on the re-naming or branding committee" 

[UND-FB-FAN]

41 minutes ago, UND1983 said:

The Kentucky FB and BB coaches just got into it over support and such.  Their FB is an afterthought no matter how good they do

The 60,000 people who attended last weekends Northern Illinois @ Kentucky game don’t think it’s an afterthought. And the media doesn’t think they’re an afterthought - they’re ranked #8 in the country right now. 
 

Mark Stoops has had up and down seasons at Kentucky. Been there even longer than Bubba has been HC at UND - wont surprise me if he leaves for a different school in the next year or two. He’s a candidate for Nebraska job. 

[siouxkid12]

8 minutes ago, Bison Dan said:

You couldn't be more wrong and uniformed.  SU has had sucess in most of its sports since going D1.

Are all those other sports at NDSU bringing in huge dollars? Putting NDSU on the national map? Are the contenders for national championships? 
 

[siouxkid12]

10 minutes ago, UND-FB-FAN said:

I agree completely - in fact, stated the same thing via my other post. By accepting the $100M donation and the REA, UND put themselves in a situation where they have to emphasize hockey. But, believe it or not, I think it’s hurt UND’s growth potential in the long run. Comes down to how the country (and even the state) views college hockey compared to college football and college basketball. Fact of the matter is, college football and college basketball are still incredibly popular in this area, and without question the most popular nationally.  

You are correct, they had to emphasize hockey but what is forgotten is with that money comes a responsibility to produce championships. They can talk about tradition, culture and everything else all they want but when you don't produce its a huge drag on other programs that can be promoted.

[Dustin]

Just to dial back on things, how do we reconcile an article like this, where the kid says "Everything about them I loved," to the topic of this thread, which is essentially saying "we don't like our coach, who else is available"?  You've got to give some props to the staff for creating an environment that yields this kind of strong response.  We can't be doing everything wrong.

https://www.inforum.com/sports/prep/everything-about-them-i-loved-fargo-south-kicker-landon-docken-commits-to-und

[Sioux>Bison]

5 minutes ago, siouxkid12 said:

Are all those other sports at NDSU bringing in huge dollars? Putting NDSU on the national map? Are the contenders for national championships? 
 

Well they have done better than UND teams. Bison Dan is a tool but he’s king of right on this point. Their SB and BB teams make the national tourney multiple years. Their BB team has made the big dance a couple of years. I think their track and wrestling isn’t too bad, but that’s about where it ends.

[Sioux>Bison]

1 minute ago, Dustin said:

Just to dial back on things, how do we reconcile an article like this, where the kid says "Everything about them I loved," to the topic of this thread, which is essentially saying "we don't like our coach, who else is available"?  You've got to give some props to the staff for creating an environment that yields this kind of strong response.  We can't be doing everything wrong.

https://www.inforum.com/sports/prep/everything-about-them-i-loved-fargo-south-kicker-landon-docken-commits-to-und

Parents of the players love what Bubba has going on at UND. Like it or not it’s not all about winning……

[siouxkid12]

20 minutes ago, UND-FB-FAN said:

I completely agree and have mentioned it on this site several times. The athletic department is tied to the REA/Engelstad agreement. President Kennedy attempted to (rightfully) buck it a few years back, but McGarry went running to the press and used her public image - inflated by the REA donation - and won out.
 

UND entered into an agreement with the “devil” in order to get the (at the time) $100M REA. The dependence on the REA and Engelstad family has been hard on the other UND athletic programs, especially since going to Division I - where more funding is needed. 

McGarry can pound sand too. This notion that we (UND) need to bend over backwards for her at every corner is exhausting and I for one can't wait until the Ralph is officially UND's. 

[UND-FB-FAN]

5 minutes ago, siouxkid12 said:

McGarry can pound sand too. This notion that we (UND) need to bend over backwards for her at every corner is exhausting and I for one can't wait until the Ralph is officially UND's. 

Spot on. As long as no loopholes open up, 2030 is a cardinal year. 
 

https://www.grandforksherald.com/news/und-ralph-engelstad-arena-reach-new-10-year-usage-agreement

read the details above, awful agreement for any sport at UND that is not hockey …

[siouxkid12]

2 minutes ago, Sioux>Bison said:

Well they have done better than UND teams. Bison Dan is a tool but he’s king of right on this point. Their SB and BB teams make the national tourney multiple years. Their BB team has made the big dance a couple of years. I think their track and wrestling isn’t too bad, but that’s about where it ends.

You and him are taking my post out of context. I said that NDSU has one contender and UND could potentially have 2 sports be contenders if they were smart. Name me one other sports that NDSU can say they will be contenders in?

Our men's and women's teams basketball teams and volleyball team have made the NCAA tournaments too but I definitely wouldn't be calling them contenders

[Mama Sue]

38 minutes ago, Dustin said:

Just to dial back on things, how do we reconcile an article like this, where the kid says "Everything about them I loved," to the topic of this thread, which is essentially saying "we don't like our coach, who else is available"?  You've got to give some props to the staff for creating an environment that yields this kind of strong response.  We can't be doing everything wrong.

https://www.inforum.com/sports/prep/everything-about-them-i-loved-fargo-south-kicker-landon-docken-commits-to-und

I read that article too this morning…great comments and yes, we must be doing something right

[Irish]

Blame hockey all you want but the sad fact is that Football's current problems are largely self-inflicted and could have been corrected.  There is a pent up enthusiasm for football that is just wanting to be unleashed every year - but seems to be dashed by what we do on the field.  Last year it died on our 20 yard line against the Bison.  We had it when we were successful in DII.  Our Athletic Department seems unwilling to make course corrections and prefers to just let things run its course.  We let Muss go on for 6, count em, 6 years before making a change.  And now we are in our 9th year of Bubba Ball - and let Rudy go on for what - 5 years?  How long would this last at NDSU?  Would better funding help - absolutely.  But let's not pretend that Bubba was our only choice when he was hired.  There is no demand from the top for excellence.  If we lay an egg Saturday just watch the crowds and enthusiasm shrink once again.  We have had 15 years of horrible leadership at the top and mediocre at best coaching.   And yet, here we are with a coaching extension through 2525.  This is not a map for success.  

 

[siouxkid12]

7 minutes ago, Irish said:

Blame hockey all you want but the sad fact is that Football's current problems are largely self-inflicted and could have been corrected.  There is a pent up enthusiasm for football that is just wanting to be unleashed every year - but seems to be dashed by what we do on the field.  Last year it died on our 20 yard line against the Bison.  We had it when we were successful in DII.  Our Athletic Department seems unwilling to make course corrections and prefers to just let things run its course.  We let Muss go on for 6, count em, 6 years before making a change.  And now we are in our 9th year of Bubba Ball - and let Rudy go on for what - 5 years?  How long would this last at NDSU?  Would better funding help - absolutely.  But let's not pretend that Bubba was our only choice when he was hired.  There is no demand from the top for excellence.  If we lay an egg Saturday just watch the crowds and enthusiasm shrink once again.  We have had 15 years of horrible leadership at the top and mediocre at best coaching.   And yet, here we are with a coaching extension through 2525.  This is not a map for success.  

 

I would agree that it is self-inflected but only to a point. Bubba is a good person to have when we need to raise funds for projects because he is all on board with what UND is trying to do (name change, new buildings, etc) His type of football however is no longer sufficient in the Missouri Valley/D1AA. UND needs to pay its football coaches a little bit more to attract that type of coach that is going to take us to the next level. 

[fightingsioux4life]

1 hour ago, siouxkid12 said:

McGarry can pound sand too. This notion that we (UND) need to bend over backwards for her at every corner is exhausting and I for one can't wait until the Ralph is officially UND's. 

100% agree with you here. She does not represent "the hand that feeds us"; she is siphoning off money that could be used to help UND athletics as a whole. Also, it was RALPH Engelstad who built the arena, not his daughter. The idea that we have to find another $100 million donor for FB and whatever else is the wrong approach. Smaller donations from a larger pool of alumni would be a much better approach to fundraising.

[Irish]

5 minutes ago, siouxkid12 said:

I would agree that it is self-inflected but only to a point. Bubba is a good person to have when we need to raise funds for projects because he is all on board with what UND is trying to do (name change, new buildings, etc) His type of football however is no longer sufficient in the Missouri Valley/D1AA. UND needs to pay its football coaches a little bit more to attract that type of coach that is going to take us to the next level. 

Agree with the need for higher pay - Although it is clear that no big donors from the Football Alumni are going to step forward.  And for the average fan who is close to being maxed out - who wants do dig in for a bit more when in reality all you are doing is funding Bubba Ball through 2025.  We need some indication of a course correction.

[gfhockey]

1 minute ago, Irish said:

Agree with the need for higher pay - Although it is clear that no big donors from the Football Alumni are going to step forward.  And for the average fan who is close to being maxed out - who wants do dig in for a bit more when in reality all you are doing is funding Bubba Ball through 2025.  We need some indication of a course correction.

Why don’t the big donors step forward for football? Should be a ton more football alumni then hockey alumni

[siouxkid12]

2 minutes ago, gfhockey said:

Why don’t the big donors step forward for football? Should be a ton more football alumni then hockey alumni

That's a good question. The GOBC should find out why and start the process of fundraising...

[Siouxperfan7]

Bubba's teams records thru last year at UND look like this:

Overall:  47-40   -   54% win percentage

Home: 32-10   -   76& win percentage

Away:  15-30   -   33% win percentage

Conference:  25-20   -   56% win percentage

 

Now, 2016 and the 2020/2021 Spring season were both banner years as we won a share of the conference those seasons.  Those were good years.  Bubba has had 2 good years where we made then playoffs.  Here are the numbers fot the other 6 seasons.

 

Overall:  33-35  -   49% win percentage

Home: 23-9   -   72% win percentage

Away:  10-26   -   28% win percentage

Conference:  13-19   -   41% win percentage

 

No matter how you look at it including the banner seasons or not, these are not the numbers of a top tier program in the FCS let alone the MVFC.  A 1-2 playoff record in that span doesn't turn many heads either.  Not trying to turn up the heat on Bubba's seat after just one conference loss, but I think its perfectly fine to start asking the questions whether Bubba is the future for this program.

 

[jdub27]

2 hours ago, UND-FB-FAN said:

See above post. Those institutions still have FB success - actually, Duke, Kansas, North Carolina and Kentucky have very good FB teams this year (two are 4-0 and two are 3-1). Difference? Active athletic departments to find the right leadership for the program - not afraid to find someone different if it’s just not working. 

Do they really have football success?
Prior to this year:
Kansas has 3 winning seasons in the last 25 and none since 2008. Their record is 94-201 the last 25 seasons.
UNC has 13 winnings seasons of the last out of 25 but that's only if you don't count the games the had to forfeit in 2 of their winning seasons. Not excluding that, they are 155-153 or 139-153 if you take out those forfeits.
Duke has 5 in the the last 25 seasons and has a record of 96-203 in that time frame.
Kentucky has 4 in the the last 25 seasons and is 140-164 in that time frame.

Bubba is at 5 of 8 and only one of those (3-8 in 2017) is what I would call a disaster of a season. His record in his first 8 seasons is 47-40 which is a better winning percentage than any of the schools you used as an example of having "FB success" have had the last quarter of a century.

 

[nodak651]

1 hour ago, UND-FB-FAN said:

I completely agree and have mentioned it on this site several times. The athletic department is tied to the REA/Engelstad agreement. President Kennedy attempted to (rightfully) buck it a few years back, but McGarry went running to the press and used her public image - inflated by the REA donation - and won out.

UND entered into an agreement with the “devil” in order to get the (at the time) $100M REA. The dependence on the REA and Engelstad family has been hard on the other UND athletic programs, especially since going to Division I - where more funding is needed. 

The REA/UND usage agreement has changed significantly since the arena was built, imo.  Below is a comparison for "Disposition of Net Income" between the current usage agreement and the 2004-2005 usage agreement.

Current usage agreement:

2004-2005 Usage Agreement:

 

 

 

[Irish]

17 minutes ago, Siouxperfan7 said:

I think its perfectly fine to start asking the questions whether Bubba is the future for this program.

 

Totally agree - however this question now needs to be postponed until 2025 because apparently the Athletic Director looked at his  coaching-  last year (in which he had some of the worst in-game coaching I have ever seen)  decided he needed an extension.  This is why we are mired in mediocrity.  

[jdub27]

2 hours ago, Dustin said:

Don't take this as me defending that UND is doing the right thing by being set up this way, but it's kind of hard to ignore the $100M donation (and repeat smaller donations) meant specifically for that sport.  I don't like biting the hands that feed us, but in a sense, the Engelstads are "hockey only" fans (although, where the BB and VB teams play also bear the Engelstad name) and have created a culture of "hockey only" fans.

Despite what is the common knowledge, people would be pretty surprised at some of the donations that have been made to other programs. However, those typically aren't announced publicly (and aren't of the $100 million variety) so there is a perception of that.

 

2 hours ago, gundy1124 said:

How was that Eastern Washington athletic budget when he left?  That probably wasn't #1 on his resume. 

Why make a lateral FCS move if you're Chaves, maybe to share his great hockey background?

No wow factor besides staying awake at meetings.  But luckily for the AD Interview committee you can always say, "Hey, at least I wasn't on the re-naming or branding committee" 

Terrible, their president was trying to move them down to D3.
EWU to UND isn't a lateral move unless you're talking about both being D1/FCS. EWU is directional commuter school that is an afterthought in their market due to proximity of P5 schools and has an $18MM budget. I would think we could agree that UND is slightly different than that. And directly to your question, that was one of the things that I know he was asked by multiple people.

Haha, point taken (and knowing some people on a few of those committees, glad I'm not them).
Out of the 5 finalists, 2 of them stuck out as head and shoulders above the others (for the portions of things I sat through). One of them had D1 AD experience, the other had significant ties to UND. I don't know who made the final call, but they actually brought in someone from the outside.

Starting to think it maybe it doesn't matter where people come from....

[sioux24/7]

24 minutes ago, jdub27 said:

Despite what is the common knowledge, people would be pretty surprised at some of the donations that have been made to other programs. However, those typically aren't announced publicly (and aren't of the $100 million variety) so there is a perception of that.

Just waiting for that big Sanford donation like all the other Dakota schools have received. 

[jdub27]

14 minutes ago, sioux24/7 said:

Just waiting for that big Sanford donation like all the other Dakota schools have received. 

UND received $10 million from Altru in 2012, which was the same amount that NDSU received from Sanford in 2010.

Doesn't mean there isn't a future opportunity, but that wasn't a coincidence.