UND and the Big Sky could go FBS

[MafiaMan]

Yah, I know. My conspiracy theories just get wild. Like how UND would absolutely get accepted into the Big Sky even when we were still was DII. Bison fans harassed me for years over that one: after all they tried three times and didn't get in.

Or when I said the Delaney and the Big Ten would force Minnesota and Wisconsin out of the WCHA because they saw Tv in content hockey. THat was before Penn State added hockey. Was well off on that one two, after all many poster said Minnesota likes the WCHA and would never leave.

Or when I said UND and Denver would never tolerate a WCHA without the Big Ten schools. UND admin would just assume leave without Bemidji and UAA and Mich Tech as those schools offer little TV value. People here thought I was crazy and said so.

I'm back in the same boat and I'm sticking to my story. The FCS boat is sinking, as the only life vest is the one that has some actual money in it for Presidents.

Always follow the money and prestige when trying to understand University Presidents. But I'm just a dumb !@#$, the dumbest guy on the internet according to bison fans.

Well, you did predict a UND volleyball whooping of NDSU and that the Bison would be lucky to get 15 points in the entire match, so there's that...

And most hockey fans knew the B10 conference had been in the works for years prior to the demise of the WCHA and CCHA...

I don't think you're crazy at all...you certainly have big ideas though.

[Goon]

The first two sentences are patently false and do not need to be dignified with the myriad reasons why.

 

I am going to agree with Teeder11, I have seen nothing to suggest that Kelly is anti-sports. 

[bang]

I am going to agree with Teeder11, I have seen nothing to suggest that Kelly is anti-sports.

I don't think he's anti-sports, but I doubt he understands it or embraces sports. Which as a president he hires somebody else to do that.

[Teeder11]

I don't think he's anti-sports, but I doubt he understands it or embraces sports. Which as a president he hires somebody else to do that.

He fully understands it and appreciates it. I spent a good deal of time chatting with Dr. Kelley and Marcia at Saturday's women's basketball game against Montana , just as I've done at many other games before that. He gets it. But despite what I say here, we are all going to read something different into his actions and decisions as president based on our relative biases about the man -- good or bad. He will continue to make decisions about athetics based on its impact on the institution as a whole. That's his responsibility as president of the entire University .... Not just the athetics department. I am sure there are some in the arts and sciences and fine arts at UND that believe his administration is hostile to them, too, based on what they perceive as true or not. That doesn't make it so, though.

[nd1sufan]

As a commissioner, Fullerton is employed at the behest of Big Sky Presidents. If a majority did not want him to speak on the subject, he would have kept his mouth SHUT.

At least eight BSC presidents want to pursue FBS for the Big Sky. I'm saying Kelley is a yes vote, otherwise we would be sharing bread crumbs with Idaho St and SUU.

Politics 101 of a conference. Fullerton is not in charge, but his job is to be out in front when the Presidents don't want to be yet.

You say you are getting your information from an article that doesn't even state that Fullerton's plan has one president that is in favor of an FBS move. Where are you getting the 8 presidents in favor of such a move? 

[SiouxVolley]

You say you are getting your information from an article that doesn't even state that Fullerton's plan has one president that is in favor of an FBS move. Where are you getting the 8 presidents in favor of such a move?

I' try to break it down for even the dim witted bison fans.

Fullerton doesn't have the final say with the Big Sky. The Board of Directors does, which is Big Sky Presidents. Fullerton essentially told Big Sky Presidents that we're going FBS whether you like it nor not. If you don't, you can go FCS among the few remaining (looking at Suu, UNC,NAU, Weber, Isu).

Fullerton can only say such a thing if be knows he has the backing of the majority of Presidents. If he has the support of only a few, he would be fired. Pretty simple.

The Idaho and Montana President were both at USD at the same time. They are assuredly on first name basis with each other. Staben, the Idaho Prez, also has Illinois and Cal-Berkley on his resume, same as Kelley.

Staben knows if he doesn't keep Idaho the FBS level, alumni support would dry up, and he'd likely be fired. He's the key BSC Prez now: with Engstrom and Cruzado carrying a lot of weight and leading the FBS charge.

[homer]

The FBS being referenced is the future 2nd tier of college football. Articles on that have been referenced many times on here from ADs across the country. No different than where we are today. It is no stretch to expect all 4 Dakota schools to find a way to get to that level. I expect UND to be there and I really don't care what the other 3 do.

Where I believe people get worked up is when they take a move to FBS as the current FBS. Some form of separation by P5 is in the future as the strength of schedule was such a big deal this year along with some further conference shuffling.

[Hayduke]

The FBS being referenced is the future 2nd tier of college football. Articles on that have been referenced many times on here from ADs across the country. No different than where we are today. It is no stretch to expect all 4 Dakota schools to find a way to get to that level. I expect UND to be there and I really don't care what the other 3 do.

Where I believe people get worked up is when they take a move to FBS as the current FBS. Some form of separation by P5 is in the future as the strength of schedule was such a big deal this year along with some further conference shuffling.

 

Good point.

 

With the new rules we anticipate from the Power 5 conferences, the FCS is going to be the new D-2...   A move to a lower tier FBS conference will probably put UND in the same position as the current FCS.  But, that move is still going to take a different mindset and a lot more cash.  I'm not sure if UND, the alumni, supporters and fans are up to it. 

[fightingsioux4life]

Good point.

 

With the new rules we anticipate from the Power 5 conferences, the FCS is going to be the new D-2...   A move to a lower tier FBS conference will probably put UND in the same position as the current FCS.  But, that move is still going to take a different mindset and a lot more cash.  I'm not sure if UND, the alumni, supporters and fans are up to it. 

I agree with this, but according to Cratter and others on this forum, this reshuffling is simply not possible and will not happen.

[Oxbow6]

I' try to break it down for even the dim witted bison fans.

Fullerton doesn't have the final say with the Big Sky. The Board of Directors does, which is Big Sky Presidents. Fullerton essentially told Big Sky Presidents that we're going FBS whether you like it nor not. If you don't, you can go FCS among the few remaining (looking at Suu, UNC,NAU, Weber, Isu).

Fullerton can only say such a thing if be knows he has the backing of the majority of Presidents. If he has the support of only a few, he would be fired. Pretty simple.

The Idaho and Montana President were both at USD at the same time. They are assuredly on first name basis with each other. Staben, the Idaho Prez, also has Illinois and Cal-Berkley on his resume, same as Kelley.

Staben knows if he doesn't keep Idaho the FBS level, alumni support would dry up, and he'd likely be fired. He's the key BSC Prez now: with Engstrom and Cruzado carrying a lot of weight and leading the FBS charge.

So what your are saying is I should get excited about going to Mobile, AL on Jan. 4 to watch UND play in the GoDaddy Bowl?

Yeeessssssss!

[fightingsioux4life]

So what your are saying is I should get excited about going to Mobile, AL on Jan. 4 to watch UND play in the GoDaddy Bowl?

Yeeessssssss!

That is the point I was trying to make with him earlier.  Don't expect to have much more success than I had.

[Oxbow6]

That is the point I was trying to make with him earlier. Don't expect to have much more success than I had.

[Cratter]

I agree with this, but according to Cratter and others on this forum, this reshuffling is simply not possible and will not happen.

Going on year 23 of the wait for the split people anticipated.

There's already two levels in FBS. Maybe they'll have there own playoffs soon. That will happen before a complete "split."

Even then they won't want FCS schools "watering it down."

[SiouxVolley]

So what your are saying is I should get excited about going to Mobile, AL on Jan. 4 to watch UND play in the GoDaddy Bowl?

Yeeessssssss!

THe GoDaddy matches MAC vs Sun Belt teams.  So if NDSU gets in the MAC like lakebison wants, maybe NDSU will have to worry about that.

 

But having been to GoDaddy's bowls, most fans take in the special Mardi Gras style parade before hand, and stuff their gills with seaford on the Mobile Bay Causeway.  If you want barbecue like Frisco, there's some barbecue shrimp or even pork!

 

THe CFP bowls made cable records for the highest ever ratings, approaching NFL playoff and even Super Bowl levels even though those are on broadcast channels.  The P5 and G5 will want more money, and ESPN will counter they want another round, maybe even include a spot for a G5 team, like Boise St.  FBS college football will have money coming out of their ears and they won't be sharing with the NCAA or FCS.  If you don't want Kelley to be part of a Big Sky move to the G5,  I suggest you begin lobbying now.  The price of admission currently to the G5 is a 15,000 stadium and a hardship waiver for the Big Sky an account of Idaho.   Each G5 non-participating teams could get $4 million in the playoffs expand, compared to $1 million now.

 

UND can stay FCS and lose money, get no exposure, and lose its conference allies, of it can go FBS with the Montana's.  Write Kelley if you insist that FCS is the better way. A seven-figure check would be helpful to convince him, to help cover FCS losses.

 

I am not a cheerleader for FBS, as I wrote in the initial post of this thread.  I just informing you and others what is coming down the pike. 

[nd1sufan]

THe GoDaddy matches MAC vs Sun Belt teams.  So if NDSU gets in the MAC like lakebison wants, maybe NDSU will have to worry about that.

 

But having been to GoDaddy's bowls, most fans take in the special Mardi Gras style parade before hand, and stuff their gills with seaford on the Mobile Bay Causeway.  If you want barbecue like Frisco, there's some barbecue shrimp or even pork!

 

THe CFP bowls made cable records for the highest ever ratings, approaching NFL playoff and even Super Bowl levels even though those are on broadcast channels.  The P5 and G5 will want more money, and ESPN will counter they want another round, maybe even include a spot for a G5 team, like Boise St.  FBS college football will have money coming out of their ears and they won't be sharing with the NCAA or FCS.  If you don't want Kelley to be part of a Big Sky move to the G5,  I suggest you begin lobbying now.  The price of admission currently to the G5 is a 15,000 stadium and a hardship waiver for the Big Sky an account of Idaho.   Each G5 non-participating teams could get $4 million in the playoffs expand, compared to $1 million now.

 

UND can stay FCS and lose money, get no exposure, and lose its conference allies, of it can go FBS with the Montana's.  Write Kelley if you insist that FCS is the better way. A seven-figure check would be helpful to convince him, to help cover FCS losses.otiry 

 

I am not a cheerleader for FBS, as I wrote in the initial post of this thread.  I just informing you and others what is coming down the pike. 

If you are talking about UND and the Big Sky going to the 2nd tier of college football below the P5, then that may happen. They would go along with the MVFC, CAA, etc. If you are talking ONLY the Big Sky is going to that level you are smoking something. 

 

So because the Big Sky has Idaho as a non-football playing member, the NCAA is going to give the BSC a waiver to go FBS along with a majority of schools that have NO chance of meeting FBS minimum standards? Even Idaho didn't come close to qualifying in attendance last year. 

 

Please keep talking. You are making us dim-witted Bison fans look awfully bright. Why stop at just FBS. Maybe the P5 wants the Big Sky. Maybe nobody told those presidents that the Big Sky now includes THE University of North Dakota. That ought to turn some heads.

[SiouxVolley]

If you are talking about UND and the Big Sky going to the 2nd tier of college football below the P5, then that may happen. They would go along with the MVFC, CAA, etc. If you are talking ONLY the Big Sky is going to that level you are smoking something.

So because the Big Sky has Idaho as a non-football playing member, the NCAA is going to give the BSC a waiver to go FBS along with a majority of schools that have NO chance of meeting FBS minimum standards? Even Idaho didn't come close to qualifying in attendance last year.

Please keep talking. You are making us dim-witted Bison fans look awfully bright. Why stop at just FBS. Maybe the P5 wants the Big Sky. Maybe nobody told those presidents that the Big Sky now includes THE University of North Dakota. That ought to turn some heads.

A waiver to have an option to become an FBS conference, not waiver to be one right now. There's a huge difference.

Fullerton said the Big Sky has an open offer NDSU, so your panties can be unwadded and washed now.

The MVC wouldn't make it, as 8 transitioning FBS members would need to be full MVC members and make the MVC FBS. Loyola, Drake, Bradley and Wichita St would raise a stink.

The CAA has the same exact problem. Stony Brook, Albany, Maine, New Hampshire, Villanova, and Richmond aren't full time members. Northeastern and Hofstra have blocked some of them.

Even the P5 does not want carte blanche entry into FBS. They don't mind more team, but they don't want individual schools to go FBS by themselves. A COnference without at least eight football playing full members will not be allowed, as they can't be an FBS conference by definition.

[nd1sufan]

A waiver to have an option to become an FBS conference, not waiver to be one right now. There's a huge difference.

Fullerton said the Big Sky has an open offer NDSU, so your panties can be unwadded and washed now.

The MVC wouldn't make it, as 8 transitioning FBS members would need to be full MVC members and make the MVC FBS. Loyola, Drake, Bradley and Wichita St would raise a stink.

The CAA has the same exact problem. Stony Brook, Albany, Maine, New Hampshire, Villanova, and Richmond aren't full time members. Northeastern and Hofstra have blocked some of them.

Even the P5 does not want carte blanche entry into FBS. They don't mind more team, but they don't want individual schools to go FBS by themselves. A COnference without at least eight football playing full members will not be allowed, as they can't be an FBS conference by definition.

And the NCAA is going to give Big Sky members what 15 to 20 years to comply with the attendance requirements of FBS?

 

Exactly how are Kelley and Faison going to be able to convince the City or State to give them $150 to $200 million for a stadium so they can go FBS when their 12,000 seat stadium is half empty right now? UND football does not have a supply problem, they have a major demand problem.

[SiouxVolley]

And the NCAA is going to give Big Sky members what 15 to 20 years to comply with the attendance requirements of FBS?

 

Exactly how are Kelley and Faison going to be able to convince the City or State to give them $150 to $200 million for a stadium so they can go FBS when their 12,000 seat stadium is half empty right now? UND football does not have a supply problem, they have a major demand problem.

We've  been through this many times.  For the last time:  UND can remodel Memorial to 20,000 and play late season games at the Alerus.  UND and all the Big Sky teams will need to average 15,000 in the second season in transition.  UND's Foundation could, if needed, buy tickets to average 15,001 at 1/3 rd the price  (three games at Memorial at 20k and two games at the Alerus would only have to average 7.5 k to get to an average of 15,001).  The NCAA accepts that and would certify UND FBS if the scheduling, scholarships,and  the sports requirements are met   UND almost meets the scholarship requirement now for other sports and has more then the 16 sports required  right now.  Most Big Sky and FCS schools only have 14 or 15 sports (except the California ones). 

 

The Big Sky is one of the few FCS conference that has enough full members to get eight through a transition (seven for the Big Sky because of Idaho) to qualify as an FBS conference.  The NCAA almost certainly won't allow individual schools to pursue FBS unless their sponsored by a conference.  NDSU will have to join the Big Sky to go FBS.  When NDSU joins the Big Sky, everybody in Fargo will praise the NCAA and the Big Sky once again.

[nd1sufan]

We've  been through this many times.  For the last time:  UND can remodel Memorial to 20,000 and play late season games at the Alerus.  UND and all the Big Sky teams will need to average 15,000 in the second season in transition.  UND's Foundation could, if needed, buy tickets to average 15,001 at 1/3 rd the price  (three games at Memorial at 20k and two games at the Alerus would only have to average 7.5 k to get to an average of 15,001).  The NCAA accepts that and would certify UND FBS if the scheduling, scholarships,and  the sports requirements are met   UND almost meets the scholarship requirement now for other sports and has more then the 16 sports required  right now.  Most Big Sky and FCS schools only have 14 or 15 sports (except the California ones). 

 

The Big Sky is one of the few FCS conference that has enough full members to get eight through a transition (seven for the Big Sky because of Idaho) to qualify as an FBS conference.  The NCAA almost certainly won't allow individual schools to pursue FBS unless their sponsored by a conference.  NDSU will have to join the Big Sky to go FBS.  When NDSU joins the Big Sky, everybody in Fargo will praise the NCAA and the Big Sky once again.

And what happens when only the Montana schools qualify after the 2 years are up?   UND will not triple their attendance to 20,000 for the first games of the season when they are playing the same schools that they are playing right now. Call a new Big Sky FBS or FCS, you are still playing the same teams you are drawing 6 to 7 thousands fans per game now. 

[SiouxVolley]

And what happens when only the Montana schools qualify after the 2 years are up?   UND will not triple their attendance to 20,000 for the first games of the season when they are playing the same schools that they are playing right now. Call a new Big Sky FBS or FCS, you are still playing the same teams you are drawing 6 to 7 thousands fans per game now.

The Montana schools aren't going to start an FBS transition if it's partners aren't well enough off and have 15k stadiums.

You too mad to even think.

[nd1sufan]

The Montana schools aren't going to start an FBS transition if it's partners aren't well enough off and have 15k stadiums.

You too mad to even think.

And which partners have 15k stadiums and which ones that do have even a chance of averaging 15k if they do? 

[JohnboyND7]

And which partners have 15k stadiums and which ones that do have even a chance of averaging 15k if they do?

They'd have their foundations buy enough tickets to get to the minimum is what he is saying. It's the Eastern Michigan model. The rule let's tickets sold count.

I'm not involved in the NCAA so I don't know if it is something they would ever let happen.

I think it's a dumb idea to go FBS with the intention of using sponsors or foundations to get to the minimum but if that's an avenue that is available and some schools choose to pursue it, that's their prerogative.

[GeauxSioux]

So what your are saying is I should get excited about going to Mobile, AL on Jan. 4 to watch UND play in the GoDaddy Bowl?

Yeeessssssss!

Less than an hour from my house to Ladd-Peebles Stadium.  Count me in. 

 

SiouxVolley is right about the seafood joints along the Mobile Bay Causeway.  Great food!

[CMSioux]

And which partners have 15k stadiums and which ones that do have even a chance of averaging 15k if they do? 

Why do you care - oh we know why. 

[The Sicatoka]

They'd have their foundations buy enough tickets to get to the minimum is what he is saying. It's the Eastern Michigan model. 

 

Yup. Precisely. (I'm pleased you knew and understood how that works.)

 

It's all spelled out in the 2014-15 NCAA DI Manual section 20.9.9.3. -- "Once every two years on a rolling basis, the institution shall average at least 15,000 in actual or paid attendance for all home football games." 

 

At EMU they have it set up where the EMU foundation buys enough tickets to ensure EMU Football averages 15k per home game. Per NCAA rules they can buy them at least one-third of the highest regular established ticket price as established prior to the season (20.9.9.3.1.2). 

 

At UND highest priced season ticket is $90. Let's make it bad and say that's for just five home game --> $90/5 = $18 per game. 

 

Now, let's make it bad the other way: Say it's a six home game season and you have to average 15k --> you must sell 90k tickets. Say you sell half, 7500 per game, to the public; that leaves half, or 45k of the 90k for the foundation to buy. But they can buy at just $6 per ticket (1/3 of $18!). 

 

So, 45k tickets at $6 per is $270k. I'm guessing a full scholarship these days is $13.5k -- that's 20 scholarships. Is the foundation already providing those? If so, rather than the direct gift, maybe the foundation "buys" tickets with the money. The money still goes where it needs to ... but with the extra benefit of making the attendance numbers work too. 

 

As John called it: "the Eastern Michigan model". 

 

 

PS - "Once every two years on a rolling basis ... " -- The foundation only has to do this every other year.