2020 Dumpster Fire (Enter at your own risk)

[iramurphy]

3 minutes ago, SIOUXFAN97 said:

 

Then when you treat your patients prescribe the meds you believe are best for your patients. 

[SIOUXFAN97]

13 minutes ago, iramurphy said:

She is no more an expert than I and Has less experience than Keikla. I review the medical literature, CDC reports and Reports from the state health dept as well as pay attention and learn from our colleague (Keikla) in NY.  I don’t pay attention to some activist who treats Covid patients in her office. Hydroxychloroquine and Azithromycin is on our list of treatment options but doesn’t seem to be the “game changer” we initially thought. 

everything that is wrong with covid19 is summed up in this sentence of yours 'I don't pay attention to some activist who treats covid patients in her office"....what the hell does that even mean?

[tnt]

39 minutes ago, iramurphy said:

To summarize, we have a deadly virus and we learn more each day. Our treatment plans change weekly if not more frequently. 

Which is why calling people experts is puzzling to me.  There are people on both sides of some of the issues with Covid that have credentials, but it doesn’t make them any more correct in their assumptions than the average citizen.  

[dynato]

There is a difference between a Covid Expert, Medical Professional, and Infectious Disease Expert. Covid has not been around long enough for anyone to be deemed an expert.

Medical professionals who have studied infectious diseases for their entire life will have more expertise and make better assumptions on a novel virus that than the average citizen. I would trust a medical professional with minimal infectious disease experience to give their best shot treating me for a new virus. I would not trust the advice from an average citizen with no medical experience on treatment for a new virus. 

[MafiaMan]

11 hours ago, Redneksioux said:

Condolences to the LM employee in his thirties that passed from covid. 

And the 18 year old kid from Miles City, MT who died in a car crash a couple of weeks ago?  Oh, never heard about that...

It seems we pick and choose what deaths are worth noting these days.  I wonder why that is...

[Redneksioux]

4 hours ago, MafiaMan said:

And the 18 year old kid from Miles City, MT who died in a car crash a couple of weeks ago?  Oh, never heard about that...

It seems we pick and choose what deaths are worth noting these days.  I wonder why that is...

Not picking and choosing. The topic of the thread is covid19 and it’s been pointed out many times here that this virus doesn’t kill those 65 and under. unfortunately in this case it did kill a 31 year old Polk county resident that many in the community know either him or his family personally. 

[Oxbow6]

1 hour ago, Redneksioux said:

Not picking and choosing. The topic of the thread is covid19 and it’s been pointed out many times here that this virus doesn’t kill those 65 and under. unfortunately in this case it did kill a 31 year old Polk county resident that many in the community know either him or his family personally. 

And since there has been discussion about the secondary societal effects of COVID in this thread what about the 5 year old Native American girls that was killed on the Spirit Lake Reservation and who's 7 year old brother was critically injured a couple weeks ago. Investigation still ongoing but foster parents arrested. 

Since you're consumed with selective deaths....37 obituaries in the Fargo Forum today as well.

[NoiseInsideMyHead]

4 minutes ago, Oxbow6 said:

And since there has been discussion about the secondary societal effects of COVID in these thread what about the 5 year old Native American girls that was killed on the Spirit Lake Reservation and who's 7 year old brother was critically injured a couple weeks ago. Investigation still ongoing but foster parents arrested. 

Since you're consumed with selective deaths....37 obituaries in the Fargo Forum today as well.

I think it's high time the Department of Health publish daily statistics on ALL deaths.

#FactsNotFear

[NoiseInsideMyHead]

One thing to bear in mind about cherry picking data related to "young" COVID victims:

Even when they are reported to have "no underlying medical conditions," the word everyone seems to be leaving out is "KNOWN."  It is often reported that healthy people under 40-ish (ESPECIALLY MEN) do not regularly seek medical care, either routine checkups, preventative care, or even when they are sick.  Who here hasn't 'toughed' it through a bout of something, relying on rest and OTC meds?  And we all know the horrific stories of shockingly young athletes - IN THEIR PRIME - who literally die from latent cardiac irregularities.  Was it the sport or the exercise that killed them?  No.

So, when someone succumbs to "a virus" who falls within an age group with a disproportionately low mortality rate, it is very possible that they had an underlying medical condition that made them particularly susceptible.  I would dare say, it is darn near a fact certain that there was something medically significant going on, or they wouldn't have died from an opportunistic infection that their fellow 'healthy' peers overcame - often with few or zero symptoms.  

The fact that a condition in an isolated individual may have been undiagnosed does not warrant the reckless implication that the virus is of any greater threat to the population at large.  That is the essence of cherry-picking, and it is morally, ethically, and scientifically unjustified.

 

[Cratter]

1 hour ago, Redneksioux said:

The topic of the thread is covid19 and it’s been pointed out many times here that this virus doesn’t kill those 65 and under. 

No one has died in ND from Covid under 40.

 

[Cratter]

Since the North Dakota Department of Health (and probably other states) knows how many died "with Covid19" and "from Covid19,"

Why do they continue to report the "with Covid" number.

"Should we report the number where coronavirus is the primary cause of death?"

"Nah. Let's report the less useful number instead."

[UND1983]

1 hour ago, Redneksioux said:

Not picking and choosing. The topic of the thread is covid19 and it’s been pointed out many times here that this virus doesn’t kill those 65 and under. unfortunately in this case it did kill a 31 year old Polk county resident that many in the community know either him or his family personally. 

Finally!  I was waiting for one person under 40 to die from it so I could justify the 37 million jobless claims. 

[GeauxSioux]

When this whole thing began, we were told that the US medical community  couldn’t handle the number of cases that would occur and that we had to shut everything down to flatten the curve.  Clearly that was an over reaction, as we set up temporary medical facilities that went largely unused. 
It  just seems to me we used a chain saw to a problem that could have been resolved with pruning shears.

 
There been over-reach by public officials to take away rights and liberties, because they thought they could get away with it.  I am hopeful that will be reversed. 

[The Sicatoka]

Regarding reporting:

”88 new cases!” — Ohhhh-kaaaayyy ....

1. They are not “new”. Testing just found them. Testing is a lagging indicator. (And speaking as a guy who’s done a lot of engineering testing, if test finds it, it’s too late. It’s already there and the money is spent, and you’ll spend even more to fix it.) 

2. 88? How many tests were done? If that’s 88 for 88, gulp. If that’s 88 of 88,000,000 tests, yawn. (<— PS - that’s about the rate of leprosy cases in the US annually, yes, like Biblical lepers.) 

3. Sample bias. We’re testing folks suspected. You’re starting with a biased sample set. You’re going to have more “finds”. Think of it this way, if you know fastball is coming you’re going to sit on the fastball and have a better at bat. 

Anecdote time: About 20 years ago I had reason to deal with media over a civil matter. I then learned that most media are not all that inquisitive or up on Civics 101, nor are they STEM minded. (I had to explain to a reporter what the ND Century Code is!) After consulting with my personal press advisor (PCM), I came to the conclusion that I (and you) should believe about half of what you see or read in the news. The raw data will more than likely be correct; however, the context or understanding of what it means will be questionable at best. And to ask them to explain why “percent daily positive” is more of a key stat than the raw “daily positives” number would be asking too much. 

[The Sicatoka]

Based on some recent tweets by him, it seems Mr. Schlossman may not completely agree with the Fargo Forum’s editorial board’s take today that (paraphrased) we must protect livelihoods as much as lives. 

 

PS - Since “skin in game” cred seems to matter here: You all know I lost my mother to Alzheimer’s recently. The same unit just test up 100% positive in the residents. Did I mention I have an uncle in that ward? 

[The Sicatoka]

26 minutes ago, GeauxSioux said:

There been over-reach by public officials to take away rights and liberties, because they thought they could get away with it.  I am hopeful that will be reversed. 

When have you witnessed acquired power given up willingly. 

[GeauxSioux]

2 minutes ago, The Sicatoka said:

When have you witnessed acquired power given up willingly. 

After the Boston marathon bombing I watched people vacating their own houses with their hands in the air, being ordered about and led around by law enforcement, while they were searching for the bombers.  I shook my head and commented that a dangerous precedent was being set. 

[The Sicatoka]

Credentialed authorities are comically bad at predicting the future. But reliable forecasting is possible.

Read More:
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/06/how-to-predict-the-future/588040/?utm_source=atl&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=share
 

[The Sicatoka]

Just now, The Sicatoka said:

Credentialed authorities are comically bad at predicting the future. But reliable forecasting is possible.

Read More:
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/06/how-to-predict-the-future/588040/?utm_source=atl&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=share
 

Experts are great at one-dimensional, single variable thought. 

But the world is a multi-factor problem. 

And this is why experts in one field are wrong far too often. 

 

Scott Adams’ book “Loserthink” is a pretty good treatise on why one—dimensional thinking gets you in trouble and how to think multi-factor. I didn’t realized I’d followed the advice until I realized I can think as a design engineer, an educator, a software geek, member of a board with fiduciary responsibilities to thousands, a testing specialist, a former power of attorney for a parent, and a former farm kid. Thinking about problems from all those perspectives is a good thing. 

If you only see things from one angle, you’re not seeing all of it.

[Oxbow6]

56 minutes ago, The Sicatoka said:

Based on some recent tweets by him, it seems Mr. Schlossman may not completely agree with the Fargo Forum’s editorial board’s take today that (paraphrased) we must protect livelihoods as much as lives. 

He is great at this job......being sportswriter. He recent tweets IMO show he's out of his lane as it pertains to ND and this region from a livelihood standpoint and the direction we are heading in ND. 

How long can a failing hardcopy local paper afford to keep him and TM on staff if there's no local sports to cover at any level thru the next academic year?

[yzerman19]

42 minutes ago, The Sicatoka said:

Experts are great at one-dimensional, single variable thought. 

But the world is a multi-factor problem. 

And this is why experts in one field are wrong far too often. 

 

Scott Adams’ book “Loserthink” is a pretty good treatise on why one—dimensional thinking gets you in trouble and how to think multi-factor. I didn’t realized I’d followed the advice until I realized I can think as a design engineer, an educator, a software geek, member of a board with fiduciary responsibilities to thousands, a testing specialist, a former power of attorney for a parent, and a former farm kid. Thinking about problems from all those perspectives is a good thing. 

If you only see things from one angle, you’re not seeing all of it.

So true- it applies to everything.  It’s why experience is such a good teacher...the more miles ya got, the more opportunities you’ve had to see different perspectives.  It’s also the basis of the core education requirements at a University.  Furthermore it applies to sports.  Too much specialization Too early in education, training or sport misses this core element of success.  

[tnt]

1 hour ago, The Sicatoka said:

Based on some recent tweets by him, it seems Mr. Schlossman may not completely agree with the Fargo Forum’s editorial board’s take today that (paraphrased) we must protect livelihoods as much as lives. 

 

PS - Since “skin in game” cred seems to matter here: You all know I lost my mother to Alzheimer’s recently. The same unit just test up 100% positive in the residents. Did I mention I have an uncle in that ward? 

Is this the same Schlossman that didn’t have a negative response when it was stated the NHL might be looking to play games in Grand Forks.  Also waiting for him to say it would be irresponsible for UND to play in front of a full house in Nashville if there are any active cases of Corona around.  Of course with him it is only the NHL’s fault for allowing fighting, and no accountability for the players who know what blows to the head can do.  No personal accountability in his own little world.

[iramurphy]

11 hours ago, SIOUXFAN97 said:

everything that is wrong with covid19 is summed up in this sentence of yours 'I don't pay attention to some activist who treats covid patients in her office"....what the hell does that even mean?

That means that if we can “treat them in our office” they are the ones we send home to self quarantine and unless they are in the group who develop increased respiratory problems, the disease make make them miserable for a few days, we don’t give Hydroxychloroquine/Azithromycin.
 

Therefore, she may do so, but I need to know what Keikla and her colleagues are doing with the patients whose disease progression has become life threatening. What she and her colleagues have learned and shared is invaluable. (We have discussed her experiences and recommendations at our strategic planning sessions).  It is consistent with what we are told by our Infectious Disease specialists and what is being reported throughout the medical world. Anecdotal stories from social media videos is not what will drive the strategy to combat this virus. The anecdotal experiences that medical providers are reporting to the CDC, State Health Departments, respected medical journals, respected medical associations and societies are where the compilation and reviews are taking place daily. We must remain flexible, vigilant and open minded. 

In my opinion that is why it is so difficult for our decision makers on both sides of the political spectrum to know what is best. What was thought to be best 2 months ago or 2 weeks ago changes. That is also why most of us in the medical profession want to avoid the political blather that ruins a reasonable discussion.
 

We also need to understand the impact this crisis is having outside of the clinics and hospitals.  There isn’t an easy answer. Just as important as paying attention to Keikla and learning from her experiences dealing first hand with life and death, while putting herself in harms way,  and risking her life for the sake of other human beings, we need to listen to those who are losing their livelihoods, businesses, jobs etc.

I read a pretty good post yesterday. The author stated “we are not all in the same boat. We are all in the same storm”.
As we navigate our way as a nation let’s remember those whose boats in this storm are sinking or leaking or have sunk. Those who have lost family or loved ones or suffered this illness are going to have an opinion that may be different than those who get no stimulus check or unemployment  It may be different than those whose hours have been cut back and aren’t sure if their old job will be there when this is over  it may be different than those who invested everything they have in a business venture and have either lost everything or are in danger of losing everything  

I certainly don’t have all of the answers. My recommendation is for anyone who doesn’t feel perfectly healthy (or normal for you), stay home and isolate until you are absolutely sure you aren’t ill. Call your doctor or provider if you aren’t improving or don’t know what to do. Wear a mask when you are around other people. Don’t worry that it might not help much cuz it might and it shouldn’t hurt. If you re-open your business’s follow CDC and health department guidelines. As we re-open businesses etc. we will face the risk of this disease for some time yet. Let’s remain vigilant. 

[SIOUXFAN97]

1 hour ago, Oxbow6 said:

He is great at this job......being sportswriter. He recent tweets IMO show he's out of his lane as it pertains to ND and this region from a livelihood standpoint and the direction we are heading in ND. 

How long can a failing hardcopy local paper afford to keep him and TM on staff if there's no local sports to cover at any level thru the next academic year?

and as mafia man can vouch for...one of the first thing companies pull when revenue is down is advertising.

[yzerman19]

14 minutes ago, iramurphy said:

That means that if we can “treat them in our office” they are the ones we send home to self quarantine and unless they are in the group who develop increased respiratory problems, the disease make make them miserable for a few days, we don’t give Hydroxychloroquine/Azithromycin.
 

Therefore, she may do so, but I need to know what Keikla and her colleagues are doing with the patients whose disease progression has become life threatening. What she and her colleagues have learned and shared is invaluable. (We have discussed her experiences and recommendations at our strategic planning sessions).  It is consistent with what we are told by our Infectious Disease specialists and what is being reported throughout the medical world. Anecdotal stories from social media videos is not what will drive the strategy to combat this virus. The anecdotal experiences that medical providers are reporting to the CDC, State Health Departments, respected medical journals, respected medical associations and societies are where the compilation and reviews are taking place daily. We must remain flexible, vigilant and open minded. 

In my opinion that is why it is so difficult for our decision makers on both sides of the political spectrum to know what is best. What was thought to be best 2 months ago or 2 weeks ago changes. That is also why most of us in the medical profession want to avoid the political blather that ruins a reasonable discussion.
 

We also need to understand the impact this crisis is having outside of the clinics and hospitals.  There isn’t an easy answer. Just as important as paying attention to Keikla and learning from her experiences dealing first hand with life and death, while putting herself in harms way,  and risking her life for the sake of other human beings, we need to listen to those who are losing their livelihoods, businesses, jobs etc.

I read a pretty good post yesterday. The author stated “we are not all in the same boat. We are all in the same storm”.
As we navigate our way as a nation let’s remember those whose boats in this storm are sinking or leaking or have sunk. Those who have lost family or loved ones or suffered this illness are going to have an opinion that may be different than those who get no stimulus check or unemployment  It may be different than those whose hours have been cut back and aren’t sure if their old job will be there when this is over  it may be different than those who invested everything they have in a business venture and have either lost everything or are in danger of losing everything  

I certainly don’t have all of the answers. My recommendation is for anyone who doesn’t feel perfectly healthy (or normal for you), stay home and isolate until you are absolutely sure you aren’t ill. Call your doctor or provider if you aren’t improving or don’t know what to do. Wear a mask when you are around other people. Don’t worry that it might not help much cuz it might and it shouldn’t hurt. If you re-open your business’s follow CDC and health department guidelines. As we re-open businesses etc. we will face the risk of this disease for some time yet. Let’s remain vigilant. 

I liked the boat analogy too.  Some people are in a leaky row boat, some are in a 400 foot yacht.