NCAA To Sanction UND if School Does Not Adopt New Nickname

[SWSiouxMN]

Didn't 3 of 4 students on the nickname committee vote to remove that option? 

They did, but Kelley also has asked for feedback and in the Herald did the article about the next step, the student body President said he would send this survey out.

What is more likely, the student to follow the committee or to support putting it back on (knowing that the sport that stirs the drink on campus is 100% behind no nickname, you could throw women's hockey on there as well)

[Blackheart]

"I strenuously object?  Is that how it's done? Hmm?  Objection, your Honor! Overruled.  No, no. I STRENUOUSLY object. Oh! You strenuously object. Then I'll take some time and reconsider."

Nice reference :)

[The Sicatoka]

If the student body president said that would be done it best be done. 

At this point, I'm not willing to make any predictions about the sentiment of the student body. 

[zonadub]

UC Santa Cruz Banana Slugs    North Dakota style.

[jdub27]

They did, but Kelley also has asked for feedback and in the Herald did the article about the next step, the student body President said he would send this survey out.

Hoping that they include the number of respondents in the results as well.  Curious how many students will bother responding. 

[SWSiouxMN]

Hoping that they include the number of respondents in the results as well.  Curious how many students will bother responding. 

They typically do, but I did sent a reply to him if they were going to do that. 

 

Results will be made early next week with number of responses.

Edited August 11, 2015 by SWSiouxMN

[CMSioux]

http://www.grandforksherald.com/news/local/3818902-sioux-chants-could-mean-consequences-und

Okay this is such as bluff it's hilarious - NCAA would sanction UND if another school complains that UND fans were cheering Fight Sioux?

1. Would the NCAA also sanction a rival school that cheered "Sioux Suck" or similar?

2. How could the NCAA prove it was UND fans doing the cheering? And saying they were wearing Sioux gear proves nothing see #1.  

3. What school is going to take the time to do that and create hard feelings with another school over off-ice cheers?

4. Does it have to be a school or could anyone file a complaint - that opens a can of worms for verification? 

5. What is the reality of the NCAA punishing a school for a person exercising their rights of free speech?

I'm guessing the next Herald story will talk about how rumors are flying that members of the Big Sky are starting to share their concerns, and how UND could get kicked out of Big Sky. 

[Chewey]

3818902-sioux-chants-could-mean-consequences-und

 

Well, now it's super-official that not adopting a nickname will not and does not violate the surrender agreement per the NCAA itself - something we've ALWAYS known.  This is  nothing more than scare tactics meant to dissuade and it's timing alone could not make the whole thing more transparent.  Good luck trying to limit free speech.  Not going to happen.  When this sort of story comes out, it provides validation and encouragement vis-a-vis the reality that the vast majority of people what to stay just "North Dakota" and that Kelley et al will do anything, even continue to engage in scare tactics, to frustrate it.  In reality, such stories and such tactics only add momentum and strength to it.  The school is not violating the surrender agreement if people cheer this or that or wear this or that. 

A here's a Herald story as to CM Sioux's last point in 3, 2, 1.......

Edited August 16, 2015 by Chewey

[AlphaMikeFoxtrot]

Trying to enforce this will only hasten the NCAA's unavoidable demise.  Way too arbitrary and open to interpretation.  Free speech groups have a field day waiting for them.  Complete 180 from the usual hard line attitude, straight up pussy-footing.

Pretty sure NCHC will make it clear to member institutions they are not allowed to complain.  The only opponents I could see filing a complaint are the Gophers or a bitter WCHA leftover.

[Hayduke]

Prettu much cofirms what Goon ssid.  No sanctions for choosing no nicknsme.  But, the NCAA reserves the right to revisit the sanctioning if they receive complaints about the use of the Fighting Sioux nickname by fans.  

 

Yes...it appears to be a free speech issue.  But, if they feel that the University of North Dakota  didn't do anything to prevent this, like choosing a new nickname, they will probably sanction the school.

To me, this means choose a new nickname to protect UND.  

 

Why?

 

Because the NCAA > UND.  If they feel UND and their stakeholders are not choosing a nickname to remain the de facto Fightinh Sioux (Which is the real reason for not having a nickname and EVERYONE knows it) they will sanction UND.  

Don't kid yourselves, No-Nicknamers.  It won't be seen as a free speech issue.  It will be seen as an act of defiance against a voluntary organization.   They will win.  

Want to wear Sioux hear and chant, "Let's go Sioux!" without harming UND?   Oddly, it would be better to choose a new nickname. 

[Benny Baker]

It's also important to point out that neither the article nor the NCAA have said a new nickname would alleviate UND from potential, alleged sanctions, whatever those may be.  What the article does say, however, is that the NCAA would investigate if they received complaints about UND fans resuming the use of Fighting Sioux.  Whether or not UND adopts a new nickname is immaterial; the NCAA will investigate continued use of Fighting Sioux. 

For myriad reasons, including the fact that the NCAA is requiring UND to use and protect the fighting sioux trademark, I cannot realistically foresee the NCAA adopting new sanctions because UND fans are using the Fighting Sioux name....

New nickname or not, there definitely needs to be more clarity to this issue. 

[WiSioux]

I would be so amused to see UND select a new nickname and then fans continue Sioux chants and see the NCAA try and do something about it. How can that be possible? Even if the NCAA personally bought me a new hockey jersey from whatever lame nickname we end up with I would still wear my Fighting Sioux jersey. Get a better new nickname option and people may not be so resistant to moving on...

[Fetch]

UND is not using Fighting Sioux

But the Fans are

I thought this was a Free Country ?

[Old Time Hockey]

Prettu much cofirms what Goon ssid.  No sanctions for choosing no nicknsme.  But, the NCAA reserves the right to revisit the sanctioning if they receive complaints about the use of the Fighting Sioux nickname by fans.  

 

Yes...it appears to be a free speech issue.  But, if they feel that the University of North Dakota  didn't do anything to prevent this, like choosing a new nickname, they will probably sanction the school.

To me, this means choose a new nickname to protect UND.  

 

Why?

 

Because the NCAA > UND.  If they feel UND and their stakeholders are not choosing a nickname to remain the de facto Fightinh Sioux (Which is the real reason for not having a nickname and EVERYONE knows it) they will sanction UND.  

Don't kid yourselves, No-Nicknamers.  It won't be seen as a free speech issue.  It will be seen as an act of defiance against a voluntary organization.   They will win.  

Want to wear Sioux hear and chant, "Let's go Sioux!" without harming UND?   Oddly, it would be better to choose a new nickname. 

At this point I say let them try to impose sanctions to a school that officially has no-nickname.  The media and free-speech proponents would have a field day with this giving the NCAA another black eye.  The NCAA has done their liberal duties by removing NA imagery from schools.  The way I see it, they have already tip-toed around the free speech issue and really don't want to deal with this anymore.  The problem I see is that the administration at UND is prodding the NCAA to help them with the mess they are in.  Kelley and co. don't know what to do right now because the no-nickname movement has gained so much steam.  The overwhelming majority of people I talk to about this issue can't stand the list of finalists and just want to stay North Dakota. IMO....  If something lame is forced on us, people will reject it and we will have to go back and revisit the process in the future.

[JohnboyND7]

I would be so amused to see UND select a new nickname and then fans continue Sioux chants and see the NCAA try and do something about it. How can that be possible? Even if the NCAA personally bought me a new hockey jersey from whatever lame nickname we end up with I would still wear my Fighting Sioux jersey. Get a better new nickname option and people may not be so resistant to moving on...

the NCAA wouldn't care as long as a new official name was chosen. You can wear that Fighting Sioux jersey forever and cry and stomp your feet. They will not care.

[iramurphy]

Who has time to waste on kicking this dead horse? I don't believe we know whether or not " the vast majority" of people want to remain just North Dakota. The vast majority of selected groups want no name.  We have dicked around with this issue way too long.  With all due respect to the Natives who wanted to keep the name, it is too late to protest and complain.  That ship sailed repeatedly years ago.  Why blame Kelly? Pretty shallow thinking.  Starcher, Clifford, Baker, and Kupchella had more opportunity to  solve this problem than Kelly. Kelly's failure is to have allowed this to drag out for so long.  To call for his immediate resignation over this issue is cowardly and stupid.  That said his successor needs to have a clear understanding of the culture of this University, the importance of intercollegiate athletics to our public image and marketing and the relationship that success there leads to increased donations and enrollment. Who cares what name is chosen? People have gotten used to being called Gophers, Beavers, Badgers, Cornhuskers, etc.  we can deal with whatever comes along.  Our focus needs to change from a pissing contest with the NCAA and the PC crowd to finishing our move to D1 by finishing our facility upgrades and improving our coaches salaries.  We also need to upgrade our marketing for the University and Athletic Dept. We need to remove any coaches who don't have a vision for success at this level and aren't willing to actively work on connecting with supporters and Alumni to make up for any shortcomings in the overall athletic budgets.  That means, golf, baseball, swimming, track, cross country, tennis, soccer, in both men's and women's sports as well as FB, Hockey, VB and BB.  Too many of our leaders, and administrators don't have that vision.  We need to maintain expectations of success in all University activities and programming.  Time, energy and resources wasted on the name issue are better spent elsewhere.

[Emerald joker]

UND is not using Fighting Sioux

But the Fans are

I thought this was a Free Country ?

It is as long as you're not offending liberals or the p(i need to be able to complain about something because my life is worthless and i need to make people miserable)c crowd

[SiouxVolley]

http://www.grandforksherald.com/news/local/3818902-sioux-chants-could-mean-consequences-und

Okay this is such as bluff it's hilarious - NCAA would sanction UND if another school complains that UND fans were cheering Fight Sioux?

1. Would the NCAA also sanction a rival school that cheered "Sioux Suck" or similar?

2. How could the NCAA prove it was UND fans doing the cheering? And saying they were wearing Sioux gear proves nothing see #1.  

3. What school is going to take the time to do that and create hard feelings with another school over off-ice cheers?

4. Does it have to be a school or could anyone file a complaint - that opens a can of worms for verification? 

5. What is the reality of the NCAA punishing a school for a person exercising their rights of free speech?

I'm guessing the next Herald story will talk about how rumors are flying that members of the Big Sky are starting to share their concerns, and how UND could get kicked out of Big Sky. 

Show the official NCAA documentation on this.  But they can't, so they just issue more falsehoods.

Kelley and the NDUS admin are just coming up with convenient lies for why North Dakota shouldn't be a choice.  Kelley wants to make it seem that he has no choice but not include ND as a choice.  I'm not a "North Dakota" nickname supporter, but this is an egregious lie IMHO.  Marquette and Miami should have been sanctioned long ago if this is a standard.  How long before Kelley's lie in eyes are out of here again?

Edited August 16, 2015 by SiouxVolley

[siouxfaninseattle]

Who has time to waste on kicking this dead horse? I don't believe we know whether or not " the vast majority" of people want to remain just North Dakota. The vast majority of selected groups want no name.  We have dicked around with this issue way too long.  With all due respect to the Natives who wanted to keep the name, it is too late to protest and complain.  That ship sailed repeatedly years ago.  Why blame Kelly? Pretty shallow thinking.  Starcher, Clifford, Baker, and Kupchella had more opportunity to  solve this problem than Kelly. Kelly's failure is to have allowed this to drag out for so long.  To call for his immediate resignation over this issue is cowardly and stupid.  That said his successor needs to have a clear understanding of the culture of this University, the importance of intercollegiate athletics to our public image and marketing and the relationship that success there leads to increased donations and enrollment. Who cares what name is chosen? People have gotten used to being called Gophers, Beavers, Badgers, Cornhuskers, etc.  we can deal with whatever comes along.  Our focus needs to change from a pissing contest with the NCAA and the PC crowd to finishing our move to D1 by finishing our facility upgrades and improving our coaches salaries.  We also need to upgrade our marketing for the University and Athletic Dept. We need to remove any coaches who don't have a vision for success at this level and aren't willing to actively work on connecting with supporters and Alumni to make up for any shortcomings in the overall athletic budgets.  That means, golf, baseball, swimming, track, cross country, tennis, soccer, in both men's and women's sports as well as FB, Hockey, VB and BB.  Too many of our leaders, and administrators don't have that vision.  We need to maintain expectations of success in all University activities and programming.  Time, energy and resources wasted on the name issue are better spent elsewhere.

Bingo. Pick a name and move on.

[Vegas_Sioux]

UND is not using Fighting Sioux

But the Fans are

I thought this was a Free Country ?

Only if your a special interest minority group. 

[fightingsioux4life]

Who has time to waste on kicking this dead horse? I don't believe we know whether or not " the vast majority" of people want to remain just North Dakota. The vast majority of selected groups want no name.  We have dicked around with this issue way too long.  With all due respect to the Natives who wanted to keep the name, it is too late to protest and complain.  That ship sailed repeatedly years ago.  Why blame Kelly? Pretty shallow thinking.  Starcher, Clifford, Baker, and Kupchella had more opportunity to  solve this problem than Kelly. Kelly's failure is to have allowed this to drag out for so long.  To call for his immediate resignation over this issue is cowardly and stupid.  That said his successor needs to have a clear understanding of the culture of this University, the importance of intercollegiate athletics to our public image and marketing and the relationship that success there leads to increased donations and enrollment. Who cares what name is chosen? People have gotten used to being called Gophers, Beavers, Badgers, Cornhuskers, etc.  we can deal with whatever comes along.  Our focus needs to change from a pissing contest with the NCAA and the PC crowd to finishing our move to D1 by finishing our facility upgrades and improving our coaches salaries.  We also need to upgrade our marketing for the University and Athletic Dept. We need to remove any coaches who don't have a vision for success at this level and aren't willing to actively work on connecting with supporters and Alumni to make up for any shortcomings in the overall athletic budgets.  That means, golf, baseball, swimming, track, cross country, tennis, soccer, in both men's and women's sports as well as FB, Hockey, VB and BB.  Too many of our leaders, and administrators don't have that vision.  We need to maintain expectations of success in all University activities and programming.  Time, energy and resources wasted on the name issue are better spent elsewhere.

Well Ira, I agree with all of this 1000% But you realize you will now get raked over the hot coals for pointing out inconvenient truths. Which truths, some will ask? These truths:

• That NDSU has overshadowed us to the point where a lot of people outside the Grand Forks City Limits don't even know we exist anymore.
• That our coaches salaries (outside of hockey, of course) are bargain basement laughingstocks.
• That too many of our fans and stakeholders think everything is just hunky-dory because we have REA and Men's Hockey and that nothing else really matters.
• That underachieving and even downright lousy coaches get way too much rope to hang their respective programs with. I am talking about Mussman and Jones in case anyone was wondering.
• That our AD has already stated in public, in the Grand Forks Heraldo, that there may be some cuts to the budget in order to fund FCOA for Men's Hockey and an equal number of women's scholarships. This is beyond unacceptable and if we go this route, we might as well drop down to NAIA.

All of these things will not get fixed and will in fact get worse if the nickname debacle continues to drag on and on. Too many precious financial and human resources are being devoted to this issue and not enough to the issues I have laid out above.

We can fight this losing battle or we can strive for, and achieve, excellence in all our programs. We cannot do both.

Edited August 16, 2015 by fightingsioux4life

[WiSioux]

Well Ira, I agree with all of this 1000% But you realize you will now get raked over the hot coals for pointing out inconvenient truths. Which truths, some will ask? These truths:

• That NDSU has overshadowed us to the point where a lot of people outside the Grand Forks City Limits don't even know we exist anymore.
• That our coaches salaries (outside of hockey, of course) are bargain basement laughingstocks.
• That too many of our fans and stakeholders think everything is just hunky-dory because we have REA and Men's Hockey and that nothing else really matters.
• That underachieving and even downright lousy coaches get way too much rope to hang their respective programs with. I am talking about Mussman and Jones in case anyone was wondering.
• That our AD has already stated in public, in the Grand Forks Heraldo, that there may be some cuts to the budget in order to fund FCOA for Men's Hockey and an equal number of women's scholarships. This is beyond unacceptable and if we go this route, we might as well drop down to NAIA.

All of these things will not get fixed and will in fact get worse if the nickname debacle continues to drag on and on. Too many precious financial and human resources are being devoted to this issue and not enough to the issues I have laid out above.

We can fight this losing battle or we can strive for, and achieve, excellence in all our programs. We cannot do both.

Just playing Devil's Advocate...

According to the NDSU website, the school has 14,000 students from 48 states and 69 countries (https://www.ndsu.edu/admission/)

According to the UND website, the school has nearly 15,000 students from 50 states and 84 countries (http://und.edu/discover/)

So I think that your statement that people outside of Grand Forks city limits don't even know the UND exists is a huge exaggeration. 

 

I agree that some of the coaches are not held to the same standards.  When I attended UND from 2004-2008 I loved going to the sporting events.  I went to every hockey and football game, some basketball games, some women's hockey games, and a handful of soccer, baseball, and volleyball games.  If I went to UND today would I attend as many events?  Maybe, but I can't say that for sure.  I love college hockey. I would still attend all the men's games, and as many of the women's game as I was able.  As much as I enjoyed college football, I SIGNIFICANTLY like pro football better and when your team is getting creamed on a weekly basis, the fun quickly wears off (and I don't drink so it isn't like I would be outside partying).  If the teams can't put a good, competitive game on the field/court/etc it isn't going to be entertaining and people aren't going to want to go.  We can't bite the hand that feeds us (men's hockey) and if we need to offer FCOA to get the recruits and stay competitive in hockey, then so be it.  Might the other programs get slight less money? Probably. But they also aren't making any money.  Money doesn't just grow on trees (or so my parents told me)... What do we need to do to increase our exposure and success in athletics and as an institution? Raise coaches salaries to be more competitive, and upgrade facilities (both athletic and academic), advertising... How are we supposed to get the money to do all of this?  Charge more for tickets? Raise tuition?  I am sure the school and athletic department would be all ears 

 

 

[CMSioux]

Well Ira, I agree with all of this 1000% But you realize you will now get raked over the hot coals for pointing out inconvenient truths. Which truths, some will ask? These truths:

• That NDSU has overshadowed us to the point where a lot of people outside the Grand Forks City Limits don't even know we exist anymore.
• That our coaches salaries (outside of hockey, of course) are bargain basement laughingstocks.
• That too many of our fans and stakeholders think everything is just hunky-dory because we have REA and Men's Hockey and that nothing else really matters.
• That underachieving and even downright lousy coaches get way too much rope to hang their respective programs with. I am talking about Mussman and Jones in case anyone was wondering.
• That our AD has already stated in public, in the Grand Forks Heraldo, that there may be some cuts to the budget in order to fund FCOA for Men's Hockey and an equal number of women's scholarships. This is beyond unacceptable and if we go this route, we might as well drop down to NAIA.

All of these things will not get fixed and will in fact get worse if the nickname debacle continues to drag on and on. Too many precious financial and human resources are being devoted to this issue and not enough to the issues I have laid out above.

We can fight this losing battle or we can strive for, and achieve, excellence in all our programs. We cannot do both.

You are allowed your opinion but these are far from "truths" and lack any credibility.  #1 is just plain laughable, #2 well with the high cost of higher education I'm fine with not having the highest paid coaches on the block - high pay does not equate to high results, #3 "many of our fans and stakeholders" - nope not the real fans and stakeholders, #4 is just a perpetual argument that never ends and #5 .... well I wouldn't lose any sleep over it because "May have to" is a long way from happening. 

[Emerald joker]

Only if your a special interest minority group. 

HAAAAAA, i like that one!!!

GO FIGHTING SIOUX

I could live with Roughriders but not sure ill ever buy a jersey and i will keep chanting LETS GO SIOUX because I cant stand the pc crowd and dont like when someone tells me i cant say something when this is supposed to be a free country, if people want to let themselves feel hurt by it then so be it. 

How about a bunch of us get together and go cry about the fighting Irish and how much the logo (that looks like its ready to fight) offends us! 

[Benny Baker]

You are allowed your opinion but these are far from "truths" and lack any credibility.  #1 is just plain laughable, #2 well with the high cost of higher education I'm fine with not having the highest paid coaches on the block - high pay does not equate to high results, #3 "many of our fans and stakeholders" - nope not the real fans and stakeholders, #4 is just a perpetual argument that never ends and #5 .... well I wouldn't lose any sleep over it because "May have to" is a long way from happening. 

But you're forgetting that, according to the anti-UND/North Dakota crowd, the lack or a new nickname is the root of all evil! Surely women's basketball would have made the big dance and the football team would have been national champions in consecutive seasons if only there was a Sundog on their jerseys!