Looking Toward The Fall

[shep]

7 minutes ago, Midwestern Hawk said:

So do the Bison change up offense to go read option?  How do you take advantage of a QB who can run but struggles throwing?

We all know they’re geniuses at developing QBs so they will teach him how to throw!

[Midwestern Hawk]

Just now, Oxbow6 said:

I'm guessing that is something the UND coaching staff really has no desire to sort thru and I don't blame them.

So you are inferring that Quincy can't throw?  

[Midwestern Hawk]

1 minute ago, shep said:

We all know they’re geniuses at developing QBs so they will teach him how to throw!

I think we can say that pre-Entz they were geniuses at recruiting QB's.

[Oxbow6]

13 minutes ago, Midwestern Hawk said:

So you are inferring that Quincy can't throw?  

On the same level that you are inferring that Tommy can't run. Q isn't the answer to your perceived issues at QB....you need to give it a rest.

[Midwestern Hawk]

11 minutes ago, Oxbow6 said:

On the same level that you are inferring that Tommy can't run. Q isn't the answer to your perceived issues at QB....you need to give it a rest.

I didn't say Tommy can't run, but we now have a 7 game body of work which says he won't run.  Takes so much pressure off the defense.  Zeb Noland can't run at NDSU, if you go single high safety he will kill you with the deep ball.  You want to win a national title or not?  It's a QB game now.

[jdub27]

12 minutes ago, Midwestern Hawk said:

I didn't say Tommy can't run, but we now have a 7 game body of work which says he won't run.  Takes so much pressure off the defense.  Zeb Noland can't run at NDSU, if you go single high safety he will kill you with the deep ball.  You want to win a national title or not?  It's a QB game now.

QV has a bigger arm, but his accuracy and decision making are the reason Tommy was the starter this year. 

You also left out the game in 2019 where Tommy had a pair of runs, including a 21 yard scramble. And it isn't like he's a statue back there, only taking 2 sacks that had a combined 2 yards of lost yardage is absolutely huge.

[The Sicatoka]

55 minutes ago, Midwestern Hawk said:

... which says he won't run.  

Won't, ... or has been directed not to. You're assuming won't. 

[Midwestern Hawk]

1 hour ago, The Sicatoka said:

Won't, ... or has been directed not to. You're assuming won't. 

Not sure why Danny would direct Tommy not to scramble/run, but maybe.

[jdub27]

1 hour ago, The Sicatoka said:

Won't, ... or has been directed not to. You're assuming won't. 

I don't think he's been explicity told not to, I think he's currently more comfortable extending the play and trying to find the open receiver. And with the lack of sacks he has taken, he has that ability. However I wil fully agree that there were at least a handful of times that he could have taken off and gotten a few yards and a first down instead of trying to find someone open.

He is also a freshman and still learning to play at the D1 level. I think it will be easier to help him learn when to get a few yards with his legs and when to extend a play than it would be to teach him how to get more comfortable instead of taking off at the first sign of distress. He already has the pocket comfort, that's a much harder skill to teach someone.

[Midwestern Hawk]

8 minutes ago, jdub27 said:

I don't think he's been explicity told not to. I think he's more comfortable extending the play and trying to find the open receiver. And with the lack of sacks he has taken, he has that ability. I do agree that there were at least a handful of times that he could have taken off and gotten a few yards instead of trying to find someone open.

He is also a freshman and still learning to play at the next level. I think it will be easier to help him learn when to take off and when to extend a play than it would be to teach him how to get more comfortable instead of taking off at the first sign of distress. He already has the pocket comfort, that's a much harder skill to teach someone.

God I hate this, but some of you are watching a different game than I am. Tommy doesn't get sacked much because his throws are designed for one target.  If that target is not open, he throws it away.   Don't believe me, give me the play in the JMU game where Tommy threw to his secondary receiver. 

This is 3rd play of the game at JMU, if he doesn't lock on Cochrane and hits Maag in stride this is either a TD or a long, long gain.  

 

[jdub27]

8 minutes ago, Midwestern Hawk said:

God I hate this, but some of you are watching a different game than I am. Tommy doesn't get sacked much because his throws are designed for one target.  If that target is not open, he throws it away.   Don't believe me, give me the play in the JMU game where Tommy threw to his secondary receiver. 

This is 3rd play of the game at JMU, if he doesn't lock on Cochrane and hits Maag in stride this is either a TD or a long, long gain. 

We'll have to mostly agree to disagree. You don't complete 2/3's of your passes with a YPA of 7.25 if you're throwing the ball away every time your primary receiver is covered.

Are a lot of the plays designed to have a primary target that the ball is thrown and it needs to get out quickly? Yes. But the ability to execute that is also the reason he's the one running the offense and not someone else. While there is no arguing he made a couple poor choices in the JMU game, I have seen him move past the primary receiver many times this season.

I'd also argue that on the play you're pointing out, off the snap, he's following Paulson (whether as a target or to move the safety) before turning to the drag route, which was wide open if the linebacker doesn't grab the WR on the way by.

[Midwestern Hawk]

6 minutes ago, jdub27 said:

We'll have to mostly agree to disagree. You don't complete 2/3's of your passes with a YPA of 7.25 if you're throwing the ball away every time your primary receiver is covered.

Are a lot of the plays designed to have a primary target that the ball is thrown and it needs to get out quickly? Yes. But the ability to execute that is also the reason he's the one running the offense and not someone else. While there is no arguing he made a couple poor choices in the JMU game, I have seen him move past the primary reciever many times this season.

I'd also argue that on the play you're pointing out, off the snap, he's following Paulson (whether as a target or to move the safety) before turning to the drag route, which was wide open if the linebacker doesn't grab the WR on the way by.

So you are saying Cochrane is the open receiver or is Cochrane who the play is designed for?

 

[UND1983]

6 minutes ago, Midwestern Hawk said:

So you are saying Cochrane is the open receiver or is Cochrane who the play is designed for?

 

Well that settles it, start Quincy.  

[homer]

3 minutes ago, Midwestern Hawk said:

So you are saying Cochrane is the open receiver or is Cochrane who the play is designed for?

 

I don’t think a freshman QB having a tendency to lock onto a read and not check other reads is only a Schuster trait.  Hopefully gets better with experience.  

[Dustin]

20 minutes ago, homer said:

I don’t think a freshman QB having a tendency to lock onto a read and not check other reads is only a Schuster trait.  Hopefully gets better with experience.  

I've been a big fan (and defender) of Schuster, but you're absolutely right @Midwestern Hawk that Tommy could have had Maag on that play and should have gone to him.  @homer, you are also absolutely right in that that is a freshman mistake that will hopefully go away with experience.

[geaux_sioux]

JFC you guys, we just had our most successful season in the D1 era

[UND1983]

24 minutes ago, geaux_sioux said:

JFC you guys, we just had our most successful season in the D1 era

Not good enough for Midwestern Mike Hawk, who only talks about the offense for some reason.  Interesting indeed.

[FlinFlan80]

2 hours ago, homer said:

I don’t think a freshman QB having a tendency to lock onto a read and not check other reads is only a Schuster trait.  Hopefully gets better with experience.  

Freshman version of Tommy>Ketteringham>Stutsrud

[gundy1124]

2 hours ago, Midwestern Hawk said:

So you are saying Cochrane is the open receiver or is Cochrane who the play is designed for?

 

I will say if a QB has a crossing route and the defender is flat footed the WR will be open every time.  And Cochrane would have been wide open without the PI, which was called.  So I think this is a bad example for you.  Then the next play Tommy throws a perfect ball for the completion and the WR coughs it up for the INT.  All I saw there were 2 nice plays in a row by Tommy.

[jdub27]

2 hours ago, Midwestern Hawk said:

So you are saying Cochrane is the open receiver or is Cochrane who the play is designed for?

I don't know who the play is designed for or who the first option is, but I know the Cochrane was coming across the linebacker's face as the LB was shuffling the other way reading Tommy's eyes and he was absolutely open, especially with the throw, if the linebacker didn't grab two handsful of jersey. It was 3rd and 8, UND had what looks like a very good drag route called that was open and would have very likely been a 1st down as Tommy led the receiver perfectly. While Maag was open at the end of the play, the weakside safety was right over the top of the seam until Tommy moved his eyes from Paulson to Cochrane. Would a pump fake or even a hard look at Cochrane and then going to Maag have worked? Hindsight makes it look like it would have absolutely and that doesn't mean both things can't be true and correct. It was also 3rd down and there was a reciever coming across who would have been in wide open space if he wouldn't have gotten mugged on his way by the linebacker. 

Again, freshman QB starting his 7th game. If these are his "struggles" that's a hell of floor to have and hopefully he continues to grow and get better.

[Midwestern Hawk]

1 hour ago, UND1983 said:

Not good enough for Midwestern Mike Hawk, who only talks about the offense for some reason.  Interesting indeed.

When teams win the QB generally gets too much of the credit and when they lose they are supposed to get too much of the blame.

Like I have said before, we are close, so very close. AT JMU we score a td after the muffed punt or score a TD on our first drive of second half we are likely on our way to Huntsville for the semis.   I see the game differently than some of you.  In today's football, all other things being relatively equal, teams go as far as their QB's will take them.  Do we have deficiencies on D?  Of course we do.  Special teams, yes.  But so does every other team.

[Siouxphan27]

1 hour ago, Midwestern Hawk said:

When teams win the QB generally gets too much of the credit and when they lose they are supposed to get too much of the blame.

Like I have said before, we are close, so very close. AT JMU we score a td after the muffed punt or score a TD on our first drive of second half we are likely on our way to Huntsville for the semis.   I see the game differently than some of you.  In today's football, all other things being relatively equal, teams go as far as their QB's will take them.  Do we have deficiencies on D?  Of course we do.  Special teams, yes.  But so does every other team.

[SooToo]

4 hours ago, Midwestern Hawk said:

When teams win the QB generally gets too much of the credit and when they lose they are supposed to get too much of the blame.

Like I have said before, we are close, so very close. AT JMU we score a td after the muffed punt or score a TD on our first drive of second half we are likely on our way to Huntsville for the semis.   I see the game differently than some of you.  In today's football, all other things being relatively equal, teams go as far as their QB's will take them.  Do we have deficiencies on D?  Of course we do.  Special teams, yes.  But so does every other team.

Enjoy your continued input/insight, even if I don't always agree. MUCH appreciate a debate about qb skills, however prolonged,  rather than the predictable political detour that ends so many SS threads.

[Sioux94]

6 hours ago, Midwestern Hawk said:

When teams win the QB generally gets too much of the credit and when they lose they are supposed to get too much of the blame.

Like I have said before, we are close, so very close. AT JMU we score a td after the muffed punt or score a TD on our first drive of second half we are likely on our way to Huntsville for the semis.   I see the game differently than some of you.  In today's football, all other things being relatively equal, teams go as far as their QB's will take them.  Do we have deficiencies on D?  Of course we do.  Special teams, yes.  But so does every other team.

I agree with you that we need a better deep passing threat to open things up.  But we've seen Tommy throw the ball 40 yards down field and hit guys almost perfectly in stride.  The Maag double move and Belquiest flea flicker play against Missouri state you referenced, even though in your opinion you thought they were poor throws.  I'm no QB expert but if you are throwing a go route velocity doesn't matter as much, better to throw a rainbow like Jeff Blake of Cincy used to do so it drops right in on the guy.  Stronger arm is more important when throwing mid or deep over the middle and you have to whiz it in to fit into a tight window. Tommy may not be able to throw the deep go route ball 55 plus yards in the air accurately, but I think he can throw it 40-45 accurately.  That said him and the WR's do need to work on that more in off season and fall camp, it's definitely not their strong suit. 

And remember the double move (gadget play as you call it) against Missouri state.....that you criticized he didn't hit perfectly in stride, take a look at the double move pass JMU ran on us and completed and their QB definitely under threw the guy who was probably more open than Maag.  Their WR totally had to slow down so much so we ended up tackling him.  Tommy's throw on that exacts same play was FAR superior as a freshman, compared to JMU senior QB.  Also, I'm curious if JMU fans thought their double move was a gadget play.  I haven't watched the game thinking specifically about this but I'm thinking Tommy could have made most or all of the throws the JMU QB made in that game.  We lucked out on one 3rd down when it was 3rd and 4 or something like that and JMU was in our territory, their QB threw out to the left for a WR screen type of throw as the other WR was blocking, totally over threw the guy, if he would have been on the money it would have been a first down. 

I've seen Tommy look off safeties and/or gone to other than his first read.  As a young QB though, many times you are going to go to that first read.  At least he has looked off the safety when doing it at times.  Tommy perhaps should have gone to Maag in the play you highlighted, but i've also seen many a NFL QB miss a guy that was wide open for a TD while they threw it to another WR.

Hopefully Quincy will continue to improve to push Tommy going into next fall.  Hopefully we can get some games next fall where Quincy gets in early due to us having a lead and he can actually run the offense and we can see what he can do a bit more.  It will be nice to have Boltmann hopefully back this fall as well.  It's nice having those guys come in as a change of pace to mix it up.  I think Danny planned on expanding Boltmann's play package more this year getting him some passes in so defenses would have to respect the pass at least a little when he is in.  I would think Quincy's play package would expand some next year too if he is not the starter but just comes in now and then.  At least Danny is smart and is going to try and do whatever it takes to win, and I certainly have more confidence in his decision to play or not play guys than before.   

[nodak651]

When Tommy threw that ball, where was the safety that was standing on the J (of JMU at midfield) at the start of the play?  Was he near Maag?

Also, Tommy getting the ball out quickly is Freunds offensive philosophy... before Tommy even set foot on campus.  @Midwestern Hawk you ever listen to Freunds interviews after he was promoted to OC?  All he talked about was designing simple plays so that the QB could get the ball out quickly.  #chuckingthepigskin throwing bombs isn't really what Freund wants to do no matter who the QB is.  

At the same time, I think they should have let QV actually run the offense and throw the ball for pretty muich the whole 4th quarter of the Missouri State game.  We had a big enough buffer that they could let him play until he made a mistake.... give the guy a chance at least.  Our backup QB needs the experience because at some point or another, Tommy will get dinged up.  Look at the QB situation last year as a perfect example as to why the backup QB's need to get into games sooner and do more than just hand the ball off.