If Big Ten Offers UND Should They Join?

[jdub27]

36 minutes ago, UNDvince97-01 said:

I think that's just one of the concessions that a smart AD in our position would ask for.  Not equal share.  Just a respectable amount.  That would be incumbent on any intelligent AD.

If not, no deal.

Maybe I'm giving our AD too much credit here and making outrageous assumptions?...

I should have clarified. Any team that joins would be crazy not to ask for some sort of revenue sharing and would almost assuredly get something but people need to be realistic on the amount. Football and basketball are what drive that contract, the rest of the sports are just TV filler. As @UNDBIZ mentioned, something replacing the Midco payment is closer to the realm of possibilities (original contract was $1 million over 5 years). What's more likely is that whoever joins gets some token amount in return for a handful of games and then keeps the rest of the content themselves to sell, similar to the setup with CBS Sports.

Edit: From a little looking, it appears that Johns Hopkins does not receive any revenue sharing from the B1G but has their own TV deal with ESPNU for home lacrosse games, a stipulation that was put into their contract before they agreed to join.

The biggest issue I have is that I don't think whatever 8th team is picked is going to be in the conference long term. There are rumblings of multiple B1G looking starting hockey. All it takes take is for one of them to start up and that 8th team would likely be squeezed out because you know it won't be Notre Dame being asked to leave. That's why ASU is the perfect fit, they aren't necessarily looking for a long term home and if they get asked to leave, they would be accepted by another conference in the interim. If UND were to leave the NCHC (and pay the large exit fee) and the after 5-10 years get removed from the B1G, what do they do besides go back to the NCHC, which would have likely backfilled to an even number?

[UNDColorado]

3 minutes ago, jdub27 said:

I should have clarified. Any team that joins would be crazy not to ask for some sort of revenue sharing and would almost assuredly get something but people need to be realistic on the amount. Football and basketball are what drive that contract, the rest of the sports are just TV filler. As @UNDBIZ mentioned, something replacing the Midco payment is closer to the realm of possibilities (original contract was $1 million over 5 years). What's more likely is that whoever joins gets some token amount in return for a handful of games and then keeps the rest of the content themselves to sell, similar to the setup with CBS Sports.

The biggest issue I have is that I don't think whatever 8th team is picked is going to be in the conference long term. There are rumblings of multiple B1G looking starting hockey. All it takes take is for one of them to start up and that 8th team would likely be squeezed out because you know it won't be Notre Dame being asked to leave. That's why ASU is the perfect fit, they aren't necessarily looking for a long term home and if they get asked to leave, they would be accepted by another conference in the interim. If UND were to leave the NCHC (and pay the large exit fee) and the after 5-10 years get removed from the B1G, what do they do besides go back to the NCHC, which would have likely backfilled to an even number?

I agree in that ASU would be the natural short term solution. Conference realignment seems to never stop so UND could possibly be in a tough situation down the road if other B1G schools would add hockey. But if they call, we have to at least answer and have a conversation.

[UNDvince97-01]

17 minutes ago, jdub27 said:

I should have clarified. Any team that joins would be crazy not to ask for some sort of revenue sharing and would almost assuredly get something but people need to be realistic on the amount. Football and basketball are what drive that contract, the rest of the sports are just TV filler. As @UNDBIZ mentioned, something replacing the Midco payment is closer to the realm of possibilities (original contract was $1 million over 5 years). What's more likely is that whoever joins gets some token amount in return for a handful of games and then keeps the rest of the content themselves to sell, similar to the setup with CBS Sports.

The biggest issue I have is that I don't think whatever 8th team is picked is going to be in the conference long term. There are rumblings of multiple B1G looking starting hockey. All it takes take is for one of them to start up and that 8th team would likely be squeezed out because you know it won't be Notre Dame being asked to leave. That's why ASU is the perfect fit, they aren't necessarily looking for a long term home and if they get asked to leave, they would be accepted by another conference in the interim. If UND were to leave the NCHC (and pay the large exit fee) and the after 5-10 years get removed from the B1G, what do they do besides go back to the NCHC, which would have likely backfilled to an even number?

I dont disagree with your assertion about new startup Big 10 hockey programs.

That's the funny thing.  That's not the short term or long term fix for THEIR current hockey problems.  Even funnier is that they dont even seem to comprehend that.

Revered Minnesota hockey guys like Lou Nanne and Brian Lawton have said as much publicly.

You cant manufacture passion and tradition for a sport.  It's organic and takes history and a certain culture and geography to become real.

Nobody can tell me any of these projected startups will provide any solutions.  Nobody will travel for hockey like UND does.  Nobody will care about the rivalries like they do with UND. 

Not Nebraska, not Iowa, not ASU, not Rutgers.

I guess I'm not debating what your saying isn't true, rather that the reasoning and logic is fatally flawed for the Big 10.

The money grab doesnt fix their inherent problems.  They would rather have tv markets than a good product that is well attended by passionate college hockey fans.

[dmksioux]

18 minutes ago, jdub27 said:

I should have clarified. Any team that joins would be crazy not to ask for some sort of revenue sharing and would almost assuredly get something but people need to be realistic on the amount. Football and basketball are what drive that contract, the rest of the sports are just TV filler. As @UNDBIZ mentioned, something replacing the Midco payment is closer to the realm of possibilities (original contract was $1 million over 5 years). What's more likely is that whoever joins gets some token amount in return for a handful of games and then keeps the rest of the content themselves to sell, similar to the setup with CBS Sports.

Edit: From a little looking, it appears that Johns Hopkins does not receive any revenue sharing from the B1G but has their own TV deal with ESPNU for home lacrosse games, a stipulation that was put into their contract before they agreed to join.

The biggest issue I have is that I don't think whatever 8th team is picked is going to be in the conference long term. There are rumblings of multiple B1G looking starting hockey. All it takes take is for one of them to start up and that 8th team would likely be squeezed out because you know it won't be Notre Dame being asked to leave. That's why ASU is the perfect fit, they aren't necessarily looking for a long term home and if they get asked to leave, they would be accepted by another conference in the interim. If UND were to leave the NCHC (and pay the large exit fee) and the after 5-10 years get removed from the B1G, what do they do besides go back to the NCHC, which would have likely backfilled to an even number?

I'd agree that ASU fits the short term.  But IF they were considering UND, why would it not be for the long term?  If enough B1G teams were started then yes, eventually UND would be out.  But if only a couple teams start, it would be fine to have 9, 10, 11, or even 12 teams in the conference, wouldn't it?

[jdub27]

11 minutes ago, UNDvince97-01 said:

I dont disagree with your assertion about new startup Big 10 hockey programs.

That's the funny thing.  That's not the short term or long term fix for THEIR current hockey problems.  Even funnier is that they dont even seem to comprehend that.

Revered Minnesota hockey guys like Lou Nanne and Brian Lawton have said as much publicly.

You cant manufacture passion and tradition for a sport.  It's organic and takes history and a certain culture and geography to become real.

Nobody can tell me any of these projected startups will provide any solutions.  Nobody will travel for hockey like UND does.  Nobody will care about the rivalries like they do with UND. 

Not Nebraska, not Iowa, not ASU, not Rutgers.

I guess I'm not debating what your saying isn't true, rather that the reasoning and logic is fatally flawed for the Big 10.

I actually agree with all of this. The B1G had to start a conference (unless they changed their by-laws) and it has not worked out well and there really is no good solution. However a change would require athletic directors and school presidents at B1G schools to care more about hockey, which they won't. In terms of revenue and exposure that hockey brings to the conference when only 6 of the 12 schools sponsor it, it is somewhat tough to argue they should change their view. Then you look at the schools that do sponsor it, hockey is the #3 sport in revenue/exposure at best and even then it is a long way behind FB and MBB.

 

1 minute ago, dmksioux said:

I'd agree that ASU fits the short term.  But IF they were considering UND, why would it not be for the long term?  If enough B1G teams were started then yes, eventually UND would be out.  But if only a couple teams start, it would be fine to have 9, 10, 11, or even 12 teams in the conference, wouldn't it?

Possible but it seems that most conferences like to stay at even numbers. I just think the flexibility with ASU is much greater than UND and that is something that is important for both sides.

 

[fightingsioux4life]

1 minute ago, dmksioux said:

I'd agree that ASU fits the short term.  But IF they were considering UND, why would it not be for the long term?  If enough B1G teams were started then yes, eventually UND would be out.  But if only a couple teams start, it would be fine to have 9, 10, 11, or even 12 teams in the conference, wouldn't it?

I say screw the B1G. They wanted this, they got it and now they can live with it. We are in the best conference in the nation (sorry Hockey LEAST) and all the schools in that conference make hockey a priority, not just for program filler.

[Yote 53]

UNO hockey started up in the 90's and look where they are at now.  PSU just started their program and that is going pretty well so far.  Nobody said it doesn't take time to build a program, but with the money and resources the BIG schools have, they just need to commit to it and it will happen.  It takes time to build something long-term and lasting.

WCHA schools in 1980:  UND, Michigan, MSU, MTU, CC, DU, UM, UMD, UW, ND

BIG schools in 2017:  Michigan, MSU, UM, UW, ND ------- PSU, OSU

Half the former WCHA is now in the BIG.  That's a pretty solid core.

[tnt]

22 minutes ago, dmksioux said:

I'd agree that ASU fits the short term.  But IF they were considering UND, why would it not be for the long term?  If enough B1G teams were started then yes, eventually UND would be out.  But if only a couple teams start, it would be fine to have 9, 10, 11, or even 12 teams in the conference, wouldn't it?

If they got enough, they could do two divisions, and we could be in the "Legends" division!  

[Cratter]

No matter what conference UND is in: B1G or NCHC, it will end up in the better conference.

 

 

[jdub27]

Just now, tnt said:

If they got enough, they could do two divisions, and we could be in the "Legends" division! 

Now that is funny

[zonadub]

Hypothetical question...

if UND were offered and accepted a hockey affiliation in the B1G, would that cause the athletic department to start looking at trying to join the Summit and MVFC? Since the B1G schools are east, would that move the focus of conference affiliations for all sports east? I do not think it would have an impact on Big Sky membership for other sports, but I don't know s--t from shine-ola when it comes to the inner workings of the AD.

[siouxkid12]

5 minutes ago, zonadub said:

Hypothetical question...

if UND were offered and accepted a hockey affiliation in the B1G, would that cause the athletic department to start looking at trying to join the Summit and MVFC? Since the B1G schools are east, would that move the focus of conference affiliations for all sports east? I do not think it would have an impact on Big Sky membership for other sports, but I don't know s--t from shine-ola when it comes to the inner workings of the AD.

I would assume it would make no difference if other sports are out East or West. The only thing that matters is, how much money will the hockey program bring in if they join the B10?

[Siouxperfan7]

2 hours ago, UNDColorado said:

I agree in that ASU would be the natural short term solution. Conference realignment seems to never stop so UND could possibly be in a tough situation down the road if other B1G schools would add hockey. But if they call, we have to at least answer and have a conversation.

Pre 2000, many schools started up D1 hockey (Quinnipiac-1999, Canisius-1998, Uconn-1998, UNO-1997) to name a few.  But, n the last 16 years, there have only been 3 schools that have started Division 1 hockey. (Robert Morris-2004, Penn State-2012 and Arizona State-2015).  There is a reason for that.  Starting D1 hockey is expensive.  And Athletic Departments have to decide if the cost of adding hockey (mens and womens most likely due to Title IV).  Some schools have the desire, but it either isn't financially worth it (Moorhead St), or they decide to put more money and efforts into their other sports.  I think the B1G fits into the later.  Hockey ranks 3rd at best at the majority of B1G schools.  Sure Penn State mad the jump, but not without a sizable financial contribution form a donor.  

While there is a chance that more B1G schools will add hockey, we haven't seen any yet to even start the conversation of starting.  And that is not just them.  It's all over the country.  Schools are not adding D1 hockey at the rate they used to.  So to get to my point, I don't think that UND would have to worry about being kicked out of the B1G if it ever joined. 

[siouxkid12]

Just now, Siouxperfan7 said:

Pre 2000, many schools started up D1 hockey (Quinnipiac-1999, Canisius-1998, Uconn-1998, UNO-1997) to name a few.  But, n the last 16 years, there have only been 3 schools that have started Division 1 hockey. (Robert Morris-2004, Penn State-2012 and Arizona State-2015).  There is a reason for that.  Starting D1 hockey is expensive.  And Athletic Departments have to decide if the cost of adding hockey (mens and womens most likely due to Title IV).  Some schools have the desire, but it either isn't financially worth it (Moorhead St), or they decide to put more money and efforts into their other sports.  I think the B1G fits into the later.  Hockey ranks 3rd at best at the majority of B1G schools.  Sure Penn State mad the jump, but not without a sizable financial contribution form a donor.  

While there is a chance that more B1G schools will add hockey, we haven't seen any yet to even start the conversation of starting.  And that is not just them.  It's all over the country.  Schools are not adding D1 hockey at the rate they used to.  So to get to my point, I don't think that UND would have to worry about being kicked out of the B1G if it ever joined. 

In some cases, wrestling overshadows hockey.

[Cratter]

5 minutes ago, siouxkid12 said:

In some cases, wrestling overshadows hockey.

What B1G schools?

[JohnboyND7]

21 minutes ago, Cratter said:

What B1G schools?

Iowa doesn't have hockey but they averaged over 8k for wrestling last year with a high of almost 12k.

Penn State averages almost 8k.

Minnesota almost 5k.

Ohio State at 4300.

 

 

[siouxkid12]

1 hour ago, Cratter said:

What B1G schools?

Wrestling is a lot bigger than you would think.

[82SiouxGuy]

2 hours ago, zonadub said:

Hypothetical question...

if UND were offered and accepted a hockey affiliation in the B1G, would that cause the athletic department to start looking at trying to join the Summit and MVFC? Since the B1G schools are east, would that move the focus of conference affiliations for all sports east? I do not think it would have an impact on Big Sky membership for other sports, but I don't know s--t from shine-ola when it comes to the inner workings of the AD.

Only Denver and Colorado College are close to the Big Sky territory in the NCHC. All of the other schools are east of UND. Moving the hockey program to any other conference probably wouldn't have any effect on the Big Sky Conference membership.

[Cratter]

2 hours ago, JohnboyND7 said:

Iowa doesn't have hockey but they averaged over 8k for wrestling last year with a high of almost 12k.

Penn State averages almost 8k.

Minnesota almost 5k.

Ohio State at 4300.

Iowa doesn't have hockey so no.

Minnesota. definitely no.

Ohio State sells more hockey tickets than wrestling tickets so no.

Penn State...maybe? But they sell more tickets to their hockey games than their arena holds.

So the answer would be maybe one. And with it being a new program it wouldn't be surprised if it was currently "overshadowed" but with time I doubt it. 

0.

[keikla]

6 hours ago, Yote 53 said:

I've said this before in this thread, I would be absolutely shocked if UNO gets offered.  One needs to understand the politics and the hierarchy in the State of Nebraska, it is Big Red and then everybody else.  Creighton gets pub in basketball but there is nothing UN-L can do about Creighton as they are private.  UNO though, they have total control over.  I just don't see UN-L sharing the Big Ten label with UNO, even if it's only hockey, and at the same time putting a barrier in their place to ever adding a hockey program themselves.

As someone who did undergrad at one of the 'everybody else' Nebraska universities, I completely agree with this assessment of Nebraska school politics.

[JohnboyND7]

52 minutes ago, Cratter said:

Iowa doesn't have hockey so no.

Minnesota. definitely no.

Ohio State sells more hockey tickets than wrestling tickets so no.

Penn State...maybe? But they sell more tickets to their hockey games than their arena holds.

So the answer would be maybe one. And with it being a new program it wouldn't be surprised if it was currently "overshadowed" but with time I doubt it. 

0.

So Iowa by default...yes instead of no.  It bigtime overshadows a sport they don't even have.

Penn State had 15k at a dual.  It'd be tough to give them a maybe at this point in time. 

[Cratter]

10 minutes ago, JohnboyND7 said:

So Iowa by default...

Wrestling overshadows hockey at NDSU too. 

[Prison_Mike]

3 hours ago, JohnboyND7 said:

Iowa doesn't have hockey but they averaged over 8k for wrestling last year with a high of almost 12k.

Penn State averages almost 8k.

Minnesota almost 5k.

Ohio State at 4300.

 

 

Big deal.  How many professional wrestlers have those schools produced?  You can't tell me the Junk Yard Dog or the Macho Man came from any of those schools.

[fightingsioux4life]

16 minutes ago, Prison_Mike said:

Big deal.  How many professional wrestlers have those schools produced?  You can't tell me the Junk Yard Dog or the Macho Man came from any of those schools.

[Cratter]

The WCHA and B1G have "nearly" the same paid attendance per session.

http://www.uscho.com/2016/03/23/graphic-conference-tournament-attendance-falls-another-7-percent-in-2016/

Big drop off for the B1G (I see where they get the name) from year one to year two.

Big jump for the NCHC from year one to year two.

The NCHC and B1G started out with the same "average attendance per session."

...could the NCHC Fozen Faceoff grow bigger than Hockey East's tournament? Last year less than 2,000 difference "average attendance per session" and that's with what seems to usually be teams within "walking distance" for schools in HE.