Best 4 Year Player Ever

[SJHovey]

2 hours ago, burd said:

That's a very legitimate point.   Gaudy numbers from an earlier era do not make the whole case, just as Nattys don't--at least on this particular question.   I saw a lot of Greg J and not much of Taylor, so I really cannot compare them very well.  Without streaming coverage in those days, if you lived away you just didn't see the guys as much.  But I can say that Johnson was a dynamic force on the ice as a freshman--teams had to focus on him from day one.  Caggiula had a great career at UND, and we may very well not have won # 8 without him, but I just don't think you can compare the player he was as a freshman and sophomore with what Johnson was.   

This is all for S & G, of course.  They are both Sioux, both had fine character, and both gave us fans more than we could have asked for.  As well as the others being discussed here. 

Exactly.  I'm not saying Caggiula needed to score 250 points to be Johnson's equal.  But when you look at their accomplishments, in the era in which they played, I don't think there is any question that Johnson, for one, had a better career at UND than did Drake.

Johnson was a three-time first team all-WCHA player.  A three time All-American.  A three time finalist for the Hobey, finishing runner-up his last year.  I don't think anyone was talking about Drake as a top 10 player in the country his sophomore year.

Drake had a terrific career at UND.  He had a great senior season, and an epic NCAA tournament run, this year.  I'll just leave it at that.

[BarnWinterSportsEngelstad]

7 hours ago, Blackheart said:

Seriously people, how can you leave out the all time NCAA leader in penalty minutes and one of the most legendary SIOUX ever?  Of course I'm referring to Mr. Archibald.  Thank you Jim. 

I remember Archibald got creamed one time at my end of the ice, he quickly got up and shook his stick at the guy, who by then was skating to the other end. Jim then skated after him while still shaking his stick at him. He caught up to him at the other end, dropped his stick and gloves and in no time that guy was laying motionless on the ice.  He got like 2 - 2minute penalties.

[The Sicatoka]

Are we talking four year players or the guys who were a playa for four years? 

Two very different answers. 

[UND1981]

I say Jeffy Panzer and Cags.  Greg Johnson had better stats but didn't win a Natty which was one of the criteria on this thread.

[stoneySIOUX]

10 hours ago, GDPritch said:

Don't get me wrong, I loved Duncan and he was a very fine college player, but didn't he play on a line with 2 players maybe better than himself (even he admitted that). And are we including "intangibles" (i.e. student-athlete) here or just best 4 year hockey player?

I did because I think it's important. Might be good to have specific criteria, I guess. Osh and Toews were obviously better, but they were two/three years players. Duncs was pretty darn good player his senior year without either, too.

[siouxrunner]

CAUTION: MATH

I don't remember the exact year, but before around 1968 or 1969, freshmen weren't allowed to play varsity. So, for the sake of argument, lets say the question includes those players who played through their senior year, but couldn't play as freshmen. 

Someone else posted about goal scoring being different in one era compared to another, so you can't directly compare stats for, say, Caggiula and Taylor. But, with a little math you can normalize scoring and get a pretty good comparison. For example, in 1980-81 season there were about 9 goals per game on average, while in 2015-16 there were 5.59 goals per game. This means that a goal in 2015-16 is "worth more" compared to a goal in 1980-81. For example: Troy Murray scored 78 points in the 80-81 season. To get a comparison for the 15-16 season, multiply 78 by 5.59/9.02 (the points per game in 80-81 divided by points per game in 15-16) and you get 48.3. This would put him in the top 3 in scoring on the team, which seems reasonable.

If you do that for every UND player for every season, the top scoring 4-year player is Jeff Panzer. In 15-16 base numbers, he would have scored around 201 career points. Combine that with the fact that he won an NCAA championship, 3 WCHA conference titles, a WCHA playoff title, was team captain, was a 2-time Hobey finalist and 2-time 1st team All-American, and I think he has a pretty good argument as the best 4 year player ever at UND. Panzer doesn't outscore Greg Johnson by much, and their personal accolades are similar, but Panzer's teams won championships, and Johnson's didn't, which I think separates the two of them just a bit more. 

I rank the top "four-year" players from UND like this:

Forwards

1. Jeff Panzer
2. Greg Johnson
3. Bill Reichart
4. Mark Taylor
5. Ben Cherski

Honorable mentions: Danny Kristo, Ryan Duncan, Dixon Ward, Terry Casey

Defense

1. Donald Ross
2. Chay Genoway
3. Nick Naumenko
4. Curtis Murphy
5. Bill Himmelright

Honorable mentions: John Noah and Russ Parent

Goalie

1. Karl Goehring
2. JP Lamoureux
3. Jon Casey
4. Lefty Curran

Honorable mention: Tate Maris

 

Next season needs to get here fast...

[Siouxperfan7]

1 hour ago, siouxrunner said:

If you do that for every UND player for every season, the top scoring 4-year player is Jeff Panzer. In 15-16 base numbers, he would have scored around 201 career points. Combine that with the fact that he won an NCAA championship, 3 WCHA conference titles, a WCHA playoff title, was team captain, was a 2-time Hobey finalist and 2-time 1st team All-American, and I think he has a pretty good argument as the best 4 year player ever at UND. Panzer doesn't outscore Greg Johnson by much, and their personal accolades are similar, but Panzer's teams won championships, and Johnson's didn't, which I think separates the two of them just a bit more. 

And, he should have won the Hobey Baker his Sr. year as well!!  No argument from me here. 

[Oxbow6]

If Dixon Ward isn't in someone's top 5 of 4 years players at UND you might is well turn in your "I think I'm an expert on UND hockey" card ASAP. 

 

Problem is 80% of posters probably never saw him play.

[stoneySIOUX]

2 hours ago, siouxrunner said:

CAUTION: MATH

I don't remember the exact year, but before around 1968 or 1969, freshmen weren't allowed to play varsity. So, for the sake of argument, lets say the question includes those players who played through their senior year, but couldn't play as freshmen. 

Someone else posted about goal scoring being different in one era compared to another, so you can't directly compare stats for, say, Caggiula and Taylor. But, with a little math you can normalize scoring and get a pretty good comparison. For example, in 1980-81 season there were about 9 goals per game on average, while in 2015-16 there were 5.59 goals per game. This means that a goal in 2015-16 is "worth more" compared to a goal in 1980-81. For example: Troy Murray scored 78 points in the 80-81 season. To get a comparison for the 15-16 season, multiply 78 by 5.59/9.02 (the points per game in 80-81 divided by points per game in 15-16) and you get 48.3. This would put him in the top 3 in scoring on the team, which seems reasonable.

If you do that for every UND player for every season, the top scoring 4-year player is Jeff Panzer. In 15-16 base numbers, he would have scored around 201 career points. Combine that with the fact that he won an NCAA championship, 3 WCHA conference titles, a WCHA playoff title, was team captain, was a 2-time Hobey finalist and 2-time 1st team All-American, and I think he has a pretty good argument as the best 4 year player ever at UND. Panzer doesn't outscore Greg Johnson by much, and their personal accolades are similar, but Panzer's teams won championships, and Johnson's didn't, which I think separates the two of them just a bit more. 

I rank the top "four-year" players from UND like this:

Forwards

1. Jeff Panzer
2. Greg Johnson
3. Bill Reichart
4. Mark Taylor
5. Ben Cherski

Honorable mentions: Danny Kristo, Ryan Duncan, Dixon Ward, Terry Casey

Defense

1. Donald Ross
2. Chay Genoway
3. Nick Naumenko
4. Curtis Murphy
5. Bill Himmelright

Honorable mentions: John Noah and Russ Parent

Goalie

1. Karl Goehring
2. JP Lamoureux
3. Jon Casey
4. Lefty Curran

Honorable mention: Tate Maris

 

Next season needs to get here fast...

[fightingsioux4life]

1 hour ago, Siouxperfan7 said:

And, he should have won the Hobey Baker his Sr. year as well!!  No argument from me here. 

Careful, there are members of the Ryan Miller fan club on this forum!

[sprig]

We need a "Panzer was robbed" display case in the Ralph lobby to go with the Hrkac and Duncan Hobey Baker displays.

[Walsh Hall]

The math doesn't factor anything but points.  Guys like Greg Johnson and Dixon Ward were incredible two way players for a LONG time.  Not a shot at any other player mentioned, but we're talking rarified air.  I'd have to put Johnson, Ward, and Taylor in the top 5 for guys in the last 40 years.

In the end, Boeser can just stay 4 years and put the argument to bed.

[farce poobah]

Thanks for the topic.   Certainly brings back lots of great memories.  

From hockeydb, a sortable all-time UND roster with # years played.   Thus making it easier to sort through a really unfrickenbelievable list of talent to choose from.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/display_players.php?tmi=8646

I've only seen 40 years of UND hockey, starting at the end of the Rube Bjorkman years, so won't go farther back. 

I am having an impossible time picking just one so will instead just talk about some of my all time favorite four year players:

Mark Taylor.  Became #1 UND all time scorer (until bumped by Greg Johnson).   1st team All America.   All WCHA.   One NCAA ring.  The thing about Taylor's stats is that until his senior season, he wasn't The Guy for scoring.   He was however, an outstanding penalty killer, and his two way play (along with other guys like Doug Smail, Erwin Martens, Dave Christian) was something even my inexperienced hockey watching eyes noticed.   This is a guy who was very happy to be getting a college degree.   My memory is as hazy as the air in the 1970's, but I think he was the first in his family to go to university.   He came into GF as "Cyclone Taylor's grandson" but certainly made his own name.

Phil Sykes.   Two NCAA rings.   TWICE named to the NCAA All-Tournament team.  (Only 2 4-year Sioux players can make that claim; the other is Bryan Lundbohm.)  One of three 4-year Sioux players to be MVP of NCAA Tournament; the others are Matt Henderson and Drake Caggiula.  Victim of CCHA collusion and not named All America in 1981 or 1982.  All WCHA.  Check out where Dawson Creek, BC is on a map.   Hint:   its the end of the road.   Another guy who was thrilled to have the opportunity to attend university, and as I recall he too was the first in his family to attend one.   Another fabulous two-way player (it seems that Gino drilled into the guys that "if you want to play at the next level, you can either be Wayne Gretzky OR you can play two way hockey").  Won TWO NCAA championships.   Totally clutch - scored back to back hat tricks vs Wisconsin in Feb 1982 to clinch the WCHA title over the despised Badgers.   Was totally honked off after the 9-0 thumping that Wisconsin gave us at home in the league playoffs, and two days later you could see the steam still coming out of his head.   Personable off the ice but incredibly competitive on the ice.   

Karl Goehring.  NCAA ring.   All America in 2000.  Three times named All WCHA.  The first UND goalie to make it to the NCAA tournament four years in a row.   Outdueled Ryan "unscoronable" Miller in the 2001 semi's.   In 2000, beat Scott Clemenson in the finale.   Beat a lot of guys who went on to play NHL, but a victim of changes in the game itself where "short goalies got no reason ..." Another smart guy who took advantage of education.   The only Sioux player who's been twice named Academic All-American. The fact that there's now a Hockey Academy was key to getting him a volunteer coaching slot.   (I think of him as a big coaching flight risk, as UND goaltending has gone from good to great during his tenure as volunteer goaltending coach.)  His full fledged goalie dance after the empty netter in 2000 title game is unforgettable.

Greg Johnson.    All Time #1 Scorer.  Three times All American.   Three times first-team All WCHA.   3 times a Hobey Baker finalist, and runner up in 1993.   I am sympathetic to those who note he played in an era of small goalie pads and much higher overall scoring.   But I note that by his senior year, opponents only had to stop one Fighting Sioux player, and still couldn't get it done.   Case in point - his senior year he scored 64 points, and the #2 Sioux, Kevin Mckinnon, had about half (38).  The #3 Sioux forward was Marty Shriner with 27 points.  A wizard with the puck, and I think even better at it than Tony Hrkac.  A couple times each period he would make the impossible pass onto a teammate's stick and most of the time it would bounce off, uncontrolled.   If he had a Brock Boeser or Bobby Joyce on his wing - to bury all those cripples - he would have had 116 points that year.   

Chay Genoway.   I realized my list needed at least one defender.  (And he was technically a five-year player. So Sioux me.)   Twice All America.  FOUR times named All WCHA, which I believe is unique among Sioux.     He was trailblazing in being a virtuoso with the puck, as well as incredibly fast.  He was Stecher before Stecher came here.   Highest possible marks for Courage and Character.   Suffered a painful neck injury (illegal St Cloud hit) but came back every bit as good as he was before.   #3 on UND defenseman scoring (behind Russ Parent and Nick Naumenko who played in the Hrkac-Johnson era); nobody else in the New Ralph era has cracked 100 points as a defender.  

Jeff Panzer.   Two time Hobey Baker top ten, and was ROBBED! twice. All America first team in 2000 and 2001.  Three times named All WCHA.  Scored 228 points in an era where goaltending was a lot tougher than the 1970's and 1980's.    Underappreciated as a defensive player;  I'm recalling one weekend vs the Gophers where we were protecting a late lead and he would disrupt the breakout not with a big hit but a quick stick, batting the puck back deep and forcing them to start again.  And again.  And again.   Relentless work ethic.  The only North Dakota native to make this list.   (But methinks that changes over the next 20 years.)

Honorable mentions:   Jon Casey, Darren Jensen, Dixon Ward, Ryan Duncan. 

I'll stop now.   

[burd]

3 hours ago, farce poobah said:

Thanks for the topic.   Certainly brings back lots of great memories.  

From hockeydb, a sortable all-time UND roster with # years played.   Thus making it easier to sort through a really unfrickenbelievable list of talent to choose from.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/display_players.php?tmi=8646

I've only seen 40 years of UND hockey, starting at the end of the Rube Bjorkman years, so won't go farther back. 

I am having an impossible time picking just one so will instead just talk about some of my all time favorite four year players:

Mark Taylor.  Became #1 UND all time scorer (until bumped by Greg Johnson).   1st team All America.   All WCHA.   One NCAA ring.  The thing about Taylor's stats is that until his senior season, he wasn't The Guy for scoring.   He was however, an outstanding penalty killer, and his two way play (along with other guys like Doug Smail, Erwin Martens, Dave Christian) was something even my inexperienced hockey watching eyes noticed.   This is a guy who was very happy to be getting a college degree.   My memory is as hazy as the air in the 1970's, but I think he was the first in his family to go to university.   He came into GF as "Cyclone Taylor's grandson" but certainly made his own name.

Phil Sykes.   Two NCAA rings.   TWICE named to the NCAA All-Tournament team.  (Only 2 4-year Sioux players can make that claim; the other is Bryan Lundbohm.)  One of three 4-year Sioux players to be MVP of NCAA Tournament; the others are Matt Henderson and Drake Caggiula.  Victim of CCHA collusion and not named All America in 1981 or 1982.  All WCHA.  Check out where Dawson Creek, BC is on a map.   Hint:   its the end of the road.   Another guy who was thrilled to have the opportunity to attend university, and as I recall he too was the first in his family to attend one.   Another fabulous two-way player (it seems that Gino drilled into the guys that "if you want to play at the next level, you can either be Wayne Gretzky OR you can play two way hockey").  Won TWO NCAA championships.   Totally clutch - scored back to back hat tricks vs Wisconsin in Feb 1982 to clinch the WCHA title over the despised Badgers.   Was totally honked off after the 9-0 thumping that Wisconsin gave us at home in the league playoffs, and two days later you could see the steam still coming out of his head.   Personable off the ice but incredibly competitive on the ice.   

Karl Goehring.  NCAA ring.   All America in 2000.  Three times named All WCHA.  The first UND goalie to make it to the NCAA tournament four years in a row.   Outdueled Ryan "unscoronable" Miller in the 2001 semi's.   In 2000, beat Scott Clemenson in the finale.   Beat a lot of guys who went on to play NHL, but a victim of changes in the game itself where "short goalies got no reason ..." Another smart guy who took advantage of education.   The only Sioux player who's been twice named Academic All-American. The fact that there's now a Hockey Academy was key to getting him a volunteer coaching slot.   (I think of him as a big coaching flight risk, as UND goaltending has gone from good to great during his tenure as volunteer goaltending coach.)  His full fledged goalie dance after the empty netter in 2000 title game is unforgettable.

Greg Johnson.    All Time #1 Scorer.  Three times All American.   Three times first-team All WCHA.   3 times a Hobey Baker finalist, and runner up in 1993.   I am sympathetic to those who note he played in an era of small goalie pads and much higher overall scoring.   But I note that by his senior year, opponents only had to stop one Fighting Sioux player, and still couldn't get it done.   Case in point - his senior year he scored 64 points, and the #2 Sioux, Kevin Mckinnon, had about half (38).  The #3 Sioux forward was Marty Shriner with 27 points.  A wizard with the puck, and I think even better at it than Tony Hrkac.  A couple times each period he would make the impossible pass onto a teammate's stick and most of the time it would bounce off, uncontrolled.   If he had a Brock Boeser or Bobby Joyce on his wing - to bury all those cripples - he would have had 116 points that year.   

Chay Genoway.   I realized my list needed at least one defender.  (And he was technically a five-year player. So Sioux me.)   Twice All America.  FOUR times named All WCHA, which I believe is unique among Sioux.     He was trailblazing in being a virtuoso with the puck, as well as incredibly fast.  He was Stecher before Stecher came here.   Highest possible marks for Courage and Character.   Suffered a painful neck injury (illegal St Cloud hit) but came back every bit as good as he was before.   #3 on UND defenseman scoring (behind Russ Parent and Nick Naumenko who played in the Hrkac-Johnson era); nobody else in the New Ralph era has cracked 100 points as a defender.  

Jeff Panzer.   Two time Hobey Baker top ten, and was ROBBED! twice. All America first team in 2000 and 2001.  Three times named All WCHA.  Scored 228 points in an era where goaltending was a lot tougher than the 1970's and 1980's.    Underappreciated as a defensive player;  I'm recalling one weekend vs the Gophers where we were protecting a late lead and he would disrupt the breakout not with a big hit but a quick stick, batting the puck back deep and forcing them to start again.  And again.  And again.   Relentless work ethic.  The only North Dakota native to make this list.   (But methinks that changes over the next 20 years.)

Honorable mentions:   Jon Casey, Darren Jensen, Dixon Ward, Ryan Duncan. 

I'll stop now.   

Good stuff, Farce.  I'd like to listen in on Tim Hennessey and Virg Foss chat about this topic. 

[GDPritch]

13 hours ago, UND1981 said:

I say Jeffy Panzer and Cags.  Greg Johnson had better stats but didn't win a Natty which was one of the criteria on this thread.

But a natty shouldn't be part of the criteria for best 4 year player at UND.  To a very large degree winning a natty is subject to circumstances out of that a player's control (e.g. being on a good team).  Yes, a great player can make a good team better but if you put either Mark Taylor or Greg Johnson or Cags or Kristo or Phil Sykes on last season's CC or Wis teams (or even last season's Mia of Ohio or W Mich or Mich St teams) they still don't win a natty.    

[farce poobah]

37 minutes ago, burd said:

Good stuff, Farce.  I'd like to listen in on Tim Hennessey and Virg Foss chat about this topic. 

Thanks, and I agree about Tim and Virg.   Could add Gino and Blais, who've seen all these players too.

[ChadR]

I can only comment on players who played post 1986. Here's my top 5:

Dixon Ward

Greg Johnson

Jeff Panzer

Karl Goehring

Ryan Duncan

[Blackheart]

How about Biggest Heart and Soul guy ever?  My vote goes to Scott Dub from Park River/Pisek.  Nobody worked harder than that guy.  RIP Dubber.

[snova4]

28 minutes ago, Blackheart said:

How about Biggest Heart and Soul guy ever?  My vote goes to Scott Dub from Park River/Pisek.  Nobody worked harder than that guy.  RIP Dubber.

I'm a pretty new fan, so I don't really know of half the people all of you talk about, but since I've been following them I've got to say Pattyn. Not sure how he would hold up all time, but there's no denying his love for this program.

[grandforks]

On 5/11/2016 at 10:50 AM, InHeavenThereIsNoBeer said:

His stats from his Freshman year were so good they weren't even quantifiable, I'm impressed.

22-28-50

 

Taylor was turning into a very good NHL player, there was even a large article about him in the USA TODAY.  And then he had a horrible leg injury, and that was pretty much the end for him.

[grandforks]

On 5/11/2016 at 5:00 PM, GeauxSioux said:

Found a link to the missing statistics...http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/t/tayloma01.html

There is a nice link to show all of the NHL Sioux alums

 

 

They are wrong about his freshman stats.  22-28-50 is what they actually were.

[Cratter]

Matt Henderson & Drake Cagguila Bar Down!

[GDPritch]

On ‎5‎/‎14‎/‎2016 at 0:59 AM, snova4 said:

I'm a pretty new fan, so I don't really know of half the people all of you talk about, but since I've been following them I've got to say Pattyn. Not sure how he would hold up all time, but there's no denying his love for this program.

Hey, no doubt young man.  Pattyn was heart/soul/grit a ND hockey player, certainly not the most talented, but a great asset nonetheless.