Grand Forks Economy

[gfNDfan]

12 hours ago, Cratter said:

There's a large company already in Grand Forks that's owned by a Chinese company.

Cirrus Aircraft.

WHHHAATTT??  They could fly over the Red Pepper and magically absorb by some "ancient chinese secret" the White Sauce recipe or GOD FORBID the recipe for the "Schneider"???   Where will this insanity end???  I blame Bo or possibly Mr. Lee!

 

 

 

 

[NoiseInsideMyHead]

On a whim, checked out today's open homes listings over at Greenberg.  This basic, boring, cookie-cutter split entry on a small lot is listed at $528,000.  With almost $27k in special assessments.  And plastic shower enclosures.

https://greenbergrealty.com/buy-a-home/3001-44th-avenue-s-grand-forks-nd-58201/20220426182005898270000000

What are we doing?  In no sane world is this sustainable.  If you have younger kids, do you ever stop and think about what kind of life they can expect?

Does this kind of stuff bother anyone?

[nodakvindy]

1 hour ago, NoiseInsideMyHead said:

On a whim, checked out today's open homes listings over at Greenberg.  This basic, boring, cookie-cutter split entry on a small lot is listed at $528,000.  With almost $27k in special assessments.  And plastic shower enclosures.

https://greenbergrealty.com/buy-a-home/3001-44th-avenue-s-grand-forks-nd-58201/20220426182005898270000000

What are we doing?  In no sane world is this sustainable.  If you have younger kids, do you ever stop and think about what kind of life they can expect?

Does this kind of stuff bother anyone?

That's what 2 plus decades of almost zero interest rates will do. We are definitely on verge of another housing bubble. ND was somewhat insulated in 08-09 due to the influx of oil cash but that won't be the case this go round. 

[Bison Dan]

39 minutes ago, NoiseInsideMyHead said:

On a whim, checked out today's open homes listings over at Greenberg.  This basic, boring, cookie-cutter split entry on a small lot is listed at $528,000.  With almost $27k in special assessments.  And plastic shower enclosures.

https://greenbergrealty.com/buy-a-home/3001-44th-avenue-s-grand-forks-nd-58201/20220426182005898270000000

What are we doing?  In no sane world is this sustainable.  If you have younger kids, do you ever stop and think about what kind of life they can expect?

Does this kind of stuff bother anyone?

Wow Walmart interior - !@#!$ design.  This is one reason I hate appraisers they appraise by sq foot and quality be damned.  

[Cratter]

1 hour ago, NoiseInsideMyHead said:

On a whim, checked out today's open homes listings over at Greenberg.  This basic, boring, cookie-cutter split entry on a small lot is listed at $528,000.  With almost $27k in special assessments.  And plastic shower enclosures.

https://greenbergrealty.com/buy-a-home/3001-44th-avenue-s-grand-forks-nd-58201/20220426182005898270000000

What are we doing?  In no sane world is this sustainable.  If you have younger kids, do you ever stop and think about what kind of life they can expect?

Does this kind of stuff bother anyone?

Large brand new house on the south end of town. Not really surprised.

Prices keep inflating.

People keep paying those prices. 

These complaints are as old as time.

I've been joking with people forever that if there was ever a place in the country with cheap housing it should be here....Cold, Flat, and nobody around. Yet it's not the case.

[geaux_sioux]

5 hours ago, nodakvindy said:

That's what 2 plus decades of almost zero interest rates will do. We are definitely on verge of another housing bubble. ND was somewhat insulated in 08-09 due to the influx of oil cash but that won't be the case this go round. 

Burst baby burst. The sooner the better. The longer it holds out the more devastating it with be.

[Kab]

Watch some of the rehab housing shows on TV

when they show the price to rehab there is no way you can do that in ND

you pay double the cost for cement here as you do in Arizona 

[SIOUXFAN97]

this is what happens when the "good ole boys" run a town for 40 years or more

[Big Lubowski]

Has anyone, the city, or those opposing Fufeng, focused on how this corn milling plant would affect other employers in GF? Unemployment in GF is essentially zero now. Fufeng’s employees have to come from the GF labor pool mostly, as unemployment nation wide is very low so no one is coming to ND for these jobs. So, those Fufeng employees have to come from other employers, don’t they? Won’t this put some presently operating businesses out of business? Is shuttering already operating businesses in favor of a new business sound economic development? It doesn’t seem like a tide that will lift all boats…

[Sioux>Bison]

On 7/10/2022 at 3:08 PM, nodakvindy said:

That's what 2 plus decades of almost zero interest rates will do. We are definitely on verge of another housing bubble. ND was somewhat insulated in 08-09 due to the influx of oil cash but that won't be the case this go round. 

People can actually afford the housing payments they signed up for this time so the market is not likely to crash the same way. If people lose their good paying jobs anything is possible.

[gfNDfan]

1 hour ago, Big Lubowski said:

Has anyone, the city, or those opposing Fufeng, focused on how this corn milling plant would affect other employers in GF? Unemployment in GF is essentially zero now. Fufeng’s employees have to come from the GF labor pool mostly, as unemployment nation wide is very low so no one is coming to ND for these jobs. So, those Fufeng employees have to come from other employers, don’t they? Won’t this put some presently operating businesses out of business? Is shuttering already operating businesses in favor of a new business sound economic development? It doesn’t seem like a tide that will lift all boats…

The idea of a new business/industry is to DRAW people to town - not draw/drain the local labor pool.   This will - because they can't fill all these jobs locally - much like when Marvin Windows and Amazon come to town - the salaries and prospects are the draw.  It's called economic development.

[Cratter]

4 hours ago, Big Lubowski said:

Won’t this put some presently operating businesses out of business? Is shuttering already operating businesses in favor of a new business sound economic development?

Weak businesses don't survive when competition arrives.

Competition drives higher wages.

If a business cannot afford to keep up maybe they shouldn't be in business.

 

[UNDBIZ]

4 hours ago, Cratter said:

Weak businesses don't survive when competition arrives.

Competition drives higher wages.

If a business cannot afford to keep up maybe they shouldn't be in business.

Agreed, except when the new business is receiving millions in tax breaks/government subsidies.

[Big Lubowski]

7 hours ago, gfNDfan said:

The idea of a new business/industry is to DRAW people to town - not draw/drain the local labor pool.   This will - because they can't fill all these jobs locally - much like when Marvin Windows and Amazon come to town - the salaries and prospects are the draw.  It's called economic development.

I think you missed one of my points. The labor market is tight nationwide. While the few management positions may draw people from other areas of the country, the vast majority of the 233 jobs the factory is going to create must be filled by the unskilled labor pool, which will not draw from the rest of country because of the tight labor market. So, those employees will need to come from the pool of workers already employed in GF. 

4 hours ago, Cratter said:

Weak businesses don't survive when competition arrives.

Competition drives higher wages.

If a business cannot afford to keep up maybe they shouldn't be in business.

 

I would be interested to hear your definition of a "weak" business. For example, is a Mom & Pop store that's been in business for many years, paying its taxes to the city of GF and training and employing unskilled workers, a "weak" business because it can't compete with wages offered by an international company that is getting $96 million in infrastructure subsidies from the city and won't have to pay real estate taxes, like the Mom & Pop store does, for many years? 

The unskilled labor pool from which this plant will fill most of the 233 jobs it says it will create is the same pool used by GF construction companies, bars & restaurants, C stores, retailers, elderly care facilities, and many others. So, those businesses, with their taxes, are subsidizing Fufeng, so it can pay higher wages for their employees. 

The Fufeng development is much different than a business coming to town from somewhere else, or a new one started by someone from GF, and competing on a level playing field with GF employers. In that scenario, I have no problem saying to businesses already here to go compete. But, this is not that. 

Bottom line is that to stay in business, the present GF employers will have to compete, albeit against somewhat unfair competition. And they will have to pay more. And they will have to pass on the increases to their customers in order to stay in business. So, be prepared to pay more for your gas, your burger, your elder care, etc, etc., etc. Maybe it's worth it in the long run...

It's a little like billionaire NFL team owners asking cities, or rather, their taxpayers, to subsidize their new stadiums. If their business model doesn't support the new stadium, maybe they shouldn't build it. In their case, the business model probably does support the full cost of the stadium; the owner would just rather someone else pay for it. 

[The Sicatoka]

Amazon put up a million square feet and added about 1000 jobs at $18 per in Fargo. They're making it work in the same labor market conditions. 

[Big Lubowski]

50 minutes ago, UNDBIZ said:

Agreed, except when the new business is receiving millions in tax breaks/government subsidies.

You beat me to it! 

29 minutes ago, The Sicatoka said:

Amazon put up a million square feet and added about 1000 jobs at $18 per in Fargo. They're making it work in the same labor market conditions. 

A couple things on that. First, you'd have to agree that Fargo's labor pool is much deeper than GF's. But, even knowing that, I know several employers in Fargo that can't fill positions. Heck, I know an employer in MSP that cant even get applicants for $20+ an hour warehouse jobs. I also know of a restaurant or two in Fargo that have closed because they can't get workers. And Amazon is still looking for workers. So, even with a much deeper labor pool, Fargo employers are having issues. 

But, the bigger question is--Did Amazon receive funding or tax breaks from the city of Fargo. I can't find that they did--correct me if I'm wrong. 

I'm a big free market proponent. Capitalism has freed more people, and rescued more from poverty, than any economic system ever. 

What I have a problem with is tilting the playing field. (Some would call it corporate welfare.) And don't get me wrong, GF is hardly the first city to throw itself at the feet of a large corporation promising jobs. But, is it really what our governments should be doing, rather than letting the marketplace determine what businesses survive and what businesses start up? 

Let's put the Fufeng project into some perspective. They're "promising" 233 jobs. I'm going to assume about 5% of those are management jobs, mid and upper level. So, you'll have about 2-3 people moving into GF's exclusive neighborhoods from Fufeng; you'll have about 10 moving into upper middle class neighborhoods, and the rest will be blue collar. An average sit down restaurant employs 50-60 employees, including a GM, several asst GMs, shift managers, kitchen managers, front of house managers, cooks and servers. It would take about 4 restaurants to equal the Fufeng hiring. So, Fufeng isn't nothing, but it's not a Microsoft campus either. 

So, life will go on in GF with or without Fufeng. Fufeng will "make it work" as will the employers in GF that are able to hire enough people to run their business. Just remember that we, through our city government, gave Fufeng a large helping hand while making things more difficult for long time GF businesses. 

[tnt]

1 hour ago, UNDBIZ said:

Agreed, except when the new business is receiving millions in tax breaks/government subsidies.

Like it or not, that is how the game is played now.  You either play the game, or choose to be status quo.  The same people that complain about the subsidies complain about how high their property taxes are.  Unless you grow the tax base, property taxes aren't going down.   The city isn't getting anything from that land now, at least they will be receiving something for it.   

[Kab]

Where are the employees going to come from?

small ND towns can’t find employees, bigger towns can’t either so will it be from out of state, people looking for a change?

200 employees to me isn’t worth the tax breaks.

you need to make an environment that people want to start a business in, low cost housing, available daycare, good schools, low crime, healthcare,recreation, airports.

grand Forks can answer yes to most of these.  One of the problems is weather, can’t change that.

[Kab]

8 minutes ago, tnt said:

Like it or not, that is how the game is played now.  You either play the game, or choose to be status quo.  The same people that complain about the subsidies complain about how high their property taxes are.  Unless you grow the tax base, property taxes aren't going down.   The city isn't getting anything from that land now, at least they will be receiving something for it.   

Where is the money for all Fargos new infrastructure coming from?  They have more interstate exchanges every year.  Is the state putting in the money, the feds ?  It can’t be all property taxes.  I hear some land owners in Fargo need to sell their homes because of high taxes?

[Big Lubowski]

Of course, there are other issues with Fufeng, which have been argued at the city council and noted in numerous letters to the editor of the GF Herald. 

Smell. Corn milling plants apparently emit sulphur dioxide. The Fufeng representative said they would use all available technology to "mediate" any smells coming from the plant. (His answer was much more PR conscious than the rep for the proposed fertilizer plant  who said "It will smell like money!" Nice!) Mediate doesn't mean eliminate. Expect the plant to emit smells, which GF already has its fair share of. 

Water. Apparently, this plant will use as much water as the city of GF uses right now. That's pretty astonishing. But, city reps say they've got the ability to make that much water available. Just hope they're right and they do have that ability. 

Truck Traffic. Fufeng estimates 200 trucks a day. Thats a fair amount of traffic. Ever drive I80 thru Nebraska? Gateway is going to be very similar...

So, there are economic issues and there are quality of life issues. 

[Big Lubowski]

12 minutes ago, tnt said:

Like it or not, that is how the game is played now.  You either play the game, or choose to be status quo.  The same people that complain about the subsidies complain about how high their property taxes are.  Unless you grow the tax base, property taxes aren't going down.   The city isn't getting anything from that land now, at least they will be receiving something for it.   

Strawman argument. But, at the same time, everybody complains about their property taxes. Especially in GF. But, have you ever seen property taxes come down--at least by a significant amount?

And this is so often presented as an either/or argument--we either do this or we do nothing. Not true. We can do other things, and as I suggested above, let the market expand organically. We could have said the same thing about the giant aquarium guys that wanted a subsidy--either we do that or we do nothing. Again, not true. 

[tnt]

1 minute ago, Big Lubowski said:

Strawman argument. But, at the same time, everybody complains about their property taxes. Especially in GF. But, have you ever seen property taxes come down--at least by a significant amount?

And this is so often presented as an either/or argument--we either do this or we do nothing. Not true. We can do other things, and as I suggested above, let the market expand organically. We could have said the same thing about the giant aquarium guys that wanted a subsidy--either we do that or we do nothing. Again, not true. 

Organically?  What does that mean?   Grand Forks doesn't seem to have expanded "organically" recently.  Maybe we would have Marvin Windows and/or DigiKey if we weren't waiting for Grand Forks to grow organically. 

[geaux_sioux]

1 hour ago, The Sicatoka said:

Amazon put up a million square feet and added about 1000 jobs at $18 per in Fargo. They're making it work in the same labor market conditions. 

Yea but Fargo is a pro growth town. Grand Forks is more of an “awe jeez, I dunno, it might not work” kind of town.

[geaux_sioux]

10 minutes ago, Big Lubowski said:

Of course, there are other issues with Fufeng, which have been argued at the city council and noted in numerous letters to the editor of the GF Herald. 

Smell. Corn milling plants apparently emit sulphur dioxide. The Fufeng representative said they would use all available technology to "mediate" any smells coming from the plant. (His answer was much more PR conscious than the rep for the proposed fertilizer plant  who said "It will smell like money!" Nice!) Mediate doesn't mean eliminate. Expect the plant to emit smells, which GF already has its fair share of. 

Water. Apparently, this plant will use as much water as the city of GF uses right now. That's pretty astonishing. But, city reps say they've got the ability to make that much water available. Just hope they're right and they do have that ability. 

Truck Traffic. Fufeng estimates 200 trucks a day. Thats a fair amount of traffic. Ever drive I80 thru Nebraska? Gateway is going to be very similar...

So, there are economic issues and there are quality of life issues. 

These are actually good points. The water issue should be a major concern. 

[Big Lubowski]

6 minutes ago, geaux_sioux said:

Yea but Fargo is a pro growth town. Grand Forks is more of an “awe jeez, I dunno, it might not work” kind of town.

That's also an interesting point. GF's city government/engineering dept has a reputation for being difficult to work with. I can speak from some limited experience there but I also know some Fargo developers who have told me the same thing--they try to avoid GF because it's just too much hassle. Maybe Bochenski has made some inroads there and I hope he has.