Fire Berry Please!

[burd]

2 minutes ago, fightingsioux4life said:

The disappointing results post 2016 are all the "evidence" you need. Results (or lack of them) matter. That's why Bubba is not in charge of FB anymore. How big of a sample size do we need for Berry?

Yeah, read my edit, which ought to have been part of the original post

[stoneySIOUX]

10 minutes ago, burd said:

Good start, siouxelevens, but factual evidence to support the conclusions would be useful.   Many of the points are so broad or vague they are almost cliche’

-lack of being prepared.    
-poor game strategy

-too much emphasis on the regular season

Those are fair points and may be true, but they are just conclusions not supported by causal facts.

Again, many of your observations are ones many of us share, but actual hockey factual evidence would make them easier to bank on.

To be clear, I wouldn’t find it shocking or offensive if BB was let go for the simple stated reason that he failed to win enough important games—Steinbrenner-like.    Head coaches of top D-1 programs are paid a lot of money and understand the need to win.   They’re big boys who have survived in an environment based on winning for a long time.   It should be different in an amateur sport that is part of a more important context:  university life.  But that’s not the way it is.

THIS! If this is the honest to goodness reason, then so be it! Instead, we play this game that we know more than we actually do.

[nodak651]

Silly question, but actually kind of serious.  When UND won the championship in 2016, they were apparently drinking Krampade (made in GF).  At least they were according to that companies marketing.

I play beer league and am getting kind of old now, but it's a high enough level and most of the guys are younger than me now.  The past few years my goal had basically almost become just getting through the games without dying, and my legs would be completely shot by the end of the games.  Now, I know the Nodak guys are probably better conditioned and have a better diet than me, but I tried Krampade just for kicks, and holy cow.... legitimately helped a TON and it helped to keep my muscles from tightening up towards the end of the game.  WAY better endurance.  Legitimately haven't been as impressed as this by a product in years.  So my question - does anyone know if the team still uses Krampade?  If they don't, they should.    *Not an ad*

[tnt]

38 minutes ago, stoneySIOUX said:

Our players don't work hard?

I'm just gonna stop this now as I don't think we'll agree. It's fine. All good.

   Let's just say their sense of urgency doesn't always kick in when it should.  It shouldn't take being behind late to start buzzing.  I saw that urgency last weekend quite often, which gives me hope, but often times if we don't score first, we're not winning.   They fought from behind Saturday so, maybe that gives them more confidence going forward if they don't score first.   
   If they can find a way to sweep Arizona State after the New Year, I think they will do enough to make the tournament on Pairwise because they have a lot of teams that if they split with, they are still hovering, and they hopefully would have home ice to gain pairwise as well.   Finish top 3 of the league and you should at least be in the running around playoff time. 

[SiouxFan100]

What difference does it make if we bring in a good goalie from the portal or develop internally? We just want a good goalie.

As I said before, no team plays a 60 minute dominant game. Both teams are trying and there will be runs.

Hate to say it but we haven’t been an “elite” consistent team in years. Love UND and UND hockey but if you don’t win NCAA tournament games it’s hard to be looked at as “elite”

[fightingsioux4life]

5 minutes ago, SiouxFan100 said:

What difference does it make if we bring in a good goalie from the portal or develop internally? We just want a good goalie.

As I said before, no team plays a 60 minute dominant game. Both teams are trying and there will be runs.

Hate to say it but we haven’t been an “elite” consistent team in years. Love UND and UND hockey but if you don’t win NCAA tournament games it’s hard to be looked at as “elite”

Portal goalies have one or two years eligibility left. So we are constantly scrambling to fill a roster spot.

[stoneySIOUX]

4 minutes ago, fightingsioux4life said:

Portal goalies have one or two years eligibility left. So we are constantly scrambling to fill a roster spot.

Scrambling? I disagree. To me, that would imply that we are grabbing from the bottom of the barrel. With one exception, all of the portal goalies have been pretty good hits, IMO. Also, the staff knows well ahead of time what players may or may not be in the portal following a season.

[SIOUXELEVENS]

38 minutes ago, stoneySIOUX said:

Comparing the football and hockey teams are not the same. My goodness. As a collective, we can belittle regular season titles and regular season success, but the two programs are NOT equal in this realm.

Also, the concept of our teams "not being prepared" or that UND is being "outcoached" as a reason for our lack of success is the reason that people want Bubs fired, but they can't provide actual evidence. Those are not results-based concepts. We've won plenty of games where we've been outplayed.

Your right what are we thinking , we are just glad to have a hockey team to cheer for. I’m hoping the hockey NIT comes about so maybe just maybe I can cheer for this team at the end of March and April. At the end of the day he is not getting in done in the post season for various reasons but we shouldn’t care because dog  gone it people like Berry. # culture 

[Blackheart]

1 hour ago, MafiaMan said:

Nothing amuses me more than watching some home fans hugging and crying the joy out like the Sioux just won the Stanley Cup…after a non-conference shootout W.

Yeah, but fireworks!

[stoneySIOUX]

10 minutes ago, SIOUXELEVENS said:

Your right what are we thinking , we are just glad to have a hockey team to cheer for. I’m hoping the hockey NIT comes about so maybe just maybe I can cheer for this team at the end of March and April. At the end of the day he is not getting in done in the post season for various reasons but we shouldn’t care because dog  gone it people like Berry. # culture 

WTF are you talking about? Who the eff is saying any of that in this conversation?

I am trying to figure out why YOU or others making certain arguments as to why they think he should be fired. Like @burd said, you can absolutely say that you think it's because they don't win enough. You're the one who added unproven nonsense like "not having players ready" or being "outcoached" without having even a SHRED of proof of these concepts. 

If you leave it at the bolded part, it's a fine argument. 

[jdub27]

1 hour ago, siouxkid12 said:

Not back then, you got to pick your seat and that was your seat all year, no matter when you showed up.

Not that it matters but to further distract from this conversation: I know that wasn't the case the first few years when the REA opened. I also know they worked on a few different versions of what was fair, maybe they tried at some point but I don't recall it.

[Blackheart]

41 minutes ago, stoneySIOUX said:

WTF are you talking about? Who the eff is saying any of that in this conversation?

I am trying to figure out why YOU or others making certain arguments as to why they think he should be fired. Like @burd said, you can absolutely say that you think it's because they don't win enough. You're the one who added unproven nonsense like "not having players ready" or being "outcoached" without having even a SHRED of proof of these concepts. 

If you leave it at the bolded part, it's a fine argument. 

How about if people say they don't play with enough grit?  That fall into the same category?

[siouxkid12]

54 minutes ago, stoneySIOUX said:

WTF are you talking about? Who the eff is saying any of that in this conversation?

I am trying to figure out why YOU or others making certain arguments as to why they think he should be fired. Like @burd said, you can absolutely say that you think it's because they don't win enough. You're the one who added unproven nonsense like "not having players ready" or being "outcoached" without having even a SHRED of proof of these concepts. 

If you leave it at the bolded part, it's a fine argument. 

I guess I’ve never understood that argument of being “outcoached”. I will say that there have been a times in Berry’s tenure (same with past coaches) where it looks like Berry hasn’t prepared the players and by that I mean, them not running the right plays or coming out flat. Now this could be on the players themselves but it always falls on the coach.
In all my years of watching hockey (especially in a one and done format), the only time I’ve ever seen a coach truly out coach another coach and have his players ready to play is Herb Brooks and team USA.

[burd]

It's more than a level of hockey evidence, IMO.   I imagine nearly everyone on these threads follows UND hockey as a result their love for the game,  That's why I think most of us like to see some discussion of actual, on-the-ice hockey evidence,     For example, BB might be consistently out-coached on line matchups, especially at critical points in games.   Or posters could refer to reliable published comments by former players as to the staff's coaching methods (or divided locker rooms).   Those are just obvious examples, but I think y'all get what I mean. 

Now, if someone is interested not in the hockey itself but just as a school "fan" who wants and needs its team win, then there is no point discussing anything other than bare outcomes.   And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that kind of fan.   It's all for entertainment, and the more fans the merrier.  

[dustnyou]

3 minutes ago, siouxkid12 said:

I guess I’ve never understood that argument of being “outcoached”. I will say that there have been a times in Berry’s tenure (same with past coaches) where it looks like Berry hasn’t prepared the players and by that I mean, them not running the right plays or coming out flat. Now this could be on the players themselves but it always falls on the coach.
In all my years of watching hockey (especially in a one and done format), the only time I’ve ever seen a coach truly out coach another coach and have his players ready to play is Herb Brooks and team USA.

97% of the time, it’s the players on the ice that decide the outcome of the game. 2023 National Championship. Rand out-coached the crap out of Bob Motzko . 

[MafiaMan]

1 hour ago, Blackheart said:

Yeah, but fireworks!

I was told that shooting off fireworks adds an extra .0003 of a point in the Pairwise rankings.  

[Goon]

6 hours ago, SIOUXELEVENS said:

Your words not mine but 9 goals the last three years might not make him a top 6 foward. 

It’s called sarcasum. He not might be the most prolific scorer, but he brings a lot of things to the table. He's good in the faceoff dot. He's a good two-way forward. 

[AlphaMikeFoxtrot]

Out-coaching doesn't always win the game, i.e. the 0.6 game Hak definitely out-coached Lucia.

[burd]

31 minutes ago, MafiaMan said:

I was told that shooting off fireworks adds an extra .0003 of a point in the Pairwise rankings.  

Pairwise?   Programmers in cigar filled rooms. 

[fightingsioux4life]

50 minutes ago, dustnyou said:

97% of the time, it’s the players on the ice that decide the outcome of the game. 2023 National Championship. Rand out-coached the crap out of Bob Motzko . 

Really? According to some people here, it's all luck (sarcasm).

[Brett0909]

34 minutes ago, burd said:

It's more than a level of hockey evidence, IMO.   I imagine nearly everyone on these threads follows UND hockey as a result their love for the game,  That's why I think most of us like to see some discussion of actual, on-the-ice hockey evidence,     For example, BB might be consistently out-coached on line matchups, especially at critical points in games.   Or posters could refer to reliable published comments by former players as to the staff's coaching methods (or divided locker rooms).   Those are just obvious examples, but I think y'all get what I mean. 

Now, if someone is interested not in the hockey itself but just as a school "fan" who wants and needs its team win, then there is no point discussing anything other than bare outcomes.   And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that kind of fan.   It's all for entertainment, and the more fans the merrier.  

Agree, and it would be great if any of us had that level of visibility (or expertise) to have that discussion. But it would also be pretty quiet and boring around here if expertise was a prerequisite to post. 

It’s an interesting argument that we should temper our criticism (or calls to change) the coach if we can’t articulate what he’s doing wrong. Although I really appreciate those defending him against the generalized frustration where the actual arguments don’t hold up…

My unsolicited take? If Berry isn’t ACCOUNTABLE to the end-result (regardless of whether I can tell you precisely where he’s failing), who is? Every player, staff member, fan, etc contributes in their own way, but they merely play a role. The HC is the only position that is ultimately responsible for everything and shouldn’t be making excuses. They own the team’s result one way or another. He’s paid for this, and no doubt feels the weight of that responsibility every day. He has the resources to win in the post-season. It’s up to him to use every possible tool at his disposal to do it.

The hard part is deciding the line between regular season success and post season disappointment to make a change. My line was a couple years ago when I realized I was confident they were going to lose in the post-season each year, and I no longer looked forward to filling out my bracket, taking regional days off to scout the “competition”, etc. I also stopped spending thousands of dollars on destination games that they consistently underperformed at. Maybe that makes me a bad fan and I hope to be proven wrong, but would ANYONE honestly put money on a Berry post-season game, regardless of the year/situation/“bad bounces”, etc.? I was (and am) ready for a change. But I won’t try to tell anyone else where their line is, there’s no “right” answer and likely only history will tell. 

[burd]

Fair points.    At this level, there is probably not that much need for detailed justification for termination if record of success is far below traditional levels (other than standard employment risk management factors).   It's just the way things are.   One benefit of demonstrated justification, though, is that it helps determine what qualities are most important for the replacement hire. 
 

Also, I, for one, do not think anyone should be restrained from criticizing the coaches or the admin people.    Just because some people enjoy good hockey assessment does not mean they think others should stifle their opinions, however they are formed.    Saying I like Apple pie does not mean I think others should not eat pudding.   

[90siouxfan]

4 hours ago, stoneySIOUX said:

I know from personal experience that Hak said this, many, many, many times. But again, I don't want to go 10 rounds on this topic. 

since you're all ready at round nine, how about you give it a full 60....

 

all this chatter about the FB crowd reminds me of a childhood friend named Todd, Todd's favorite recess activity was hitting the special needs kids with snow balls....

[Big A HG]

There's a whole book of reasons that I don't think Berry should be the head coach at UND, but this graph visually explains one of those reasons.  

 

 

The following aren't all facts, some just observations, and are in no particular order.

1)  How do you quantify good coaching?  It's hard to ask that to anyone, even hockey/coaching experts, much less an internet forum.  It's a worthless question.  Ask Bobby Knight how to coach, ask Nick Saban how to coach, ask Coach K how to coach and you'll get three different answers.  There's no right or wrong way, but the common denominator of a good coach is winning.  Sometimes you're a good coach when you're good among your peers, like at a small program far outside the view of the national stage.  But, UND is one of the keystones of the national stage in college hockey, and UND doesn't act or play like it anymore.  NCHC wins are great, but winning outside of that is a struggle.

2) What's the fan perception?  Everyone has an opinion, and those opinions can vary wildly.  Some want Berry to stay, some what Berry to go, but words are mostly meaningless.  What are the ACTIONS of those fans?  Fans still show up to games, but there are frequently open seats and the buzz at the Ralph as at a lower level than in a long time.  UND used to do special destination games every two years, but interested waned so much in those that they stopped doing them altogether.  Now, they're going back to a another destination game after a hiatus, albeit at a smaller arena.  Why has fan interest waned when ticket sales and prices for events are reaching all time highs in many other forms of sport and entertainment?

3) Is the program better now than when Berry started?  This can in no logical way be true.  When Berry came in, we were essentially NHL U.  The program was run like an NHL team and UND was the talk of college hockey every year despite the national championship drought.  The national pundits talk so infrequently in comparison these days and no one seems scared of playing a team like UND anymore.  The resources off the ice have never been better and yet the product on the ice has not in any way improved.

4) The story about Berry's behind-the-scenes "Nodak" wordmark incident was conveniently swept under the rug, but the truth is pretty damning.  The only saving grace of the situation, if true, is that Berry hadn't yet profited from it.  But this was the UND Hockey version of Hunter Biden and Burisma and that's all I'll say.

5)  The Berry fan bois think that all this Berry talk stems from how this season has started.  It's beyond short-sighted and ignorant to play that card.  This whole topic has been a growing tumor from our lack of post-season success...ultimately that's the standard for a program like UND.  It doesn't mean that the anti-Berry crowd is demanding a national championship every year, it's that we barely sniffed a Frozen Four once in the past eight seasons.  UND missed the NCAA tournament 3 times in a 7 year stretch, the only three times in the entire history of the 16 team NCAA tournament.  Our only NCAA win since the [awesome] title is against AIC, a team now going Division II.  But, that championship is going on NINE years old.

 

Let's get a fresh face.  

[cberkas]

They had back-to-back destination games because they move the Penn State one. So, they stopped them to not burn out the fan base and keep them fresh. Brad talked about why a smaller venue during one of his podcasts. From what I got from Brad was smaller venue is a better fan experience. If the destination games were losing interest they wouldn't sell out the smaller venue of have a wait list.