2022-2023 Season

[SWSiouxMN]

3 hours ago, siouxfan512 said:

Have to say I haven't followed UND basketball closely since Hooker and Crandell were playing. Anytime we seem to get a guy with some potential, we can't hold on to him. Is this a product of coaching, lack of team success, transfer rules, a combo? FWIW I know transfer rules don't help, but seems to be hurting UND more than the other Dakota schools, so I'm not sure that is the most valid reason.

Enjoy the 1 year we get of Eaglestaff, because unless he comes in an is magically surrounded by talent, I can't see him or anyone else wanting to stay. There seems to be a major lack of culture within the program.

There seems to be an ongoing discussion around football as to if the program is in the right place and how do we get more talent, how do we become competitive every year. Football seems to be a non-issue compared to basketball. Just seems like this entire program has been circling the drain for a little while now. Then again, I'm no great basketball mind. Maybe I'm way off base, but a 6-25 team (2-16 conf) losing Bruns doesn't get me overly excited for what is to come.

Open to thoughts and opinions from people who are more in the know with basketball and this program.

In discussing this, we need to remove Rebraca from this discussion.  His situation was incredibly unique and outside of UND changing his grad program to inperson or changing the visa rules, Sather had zero control on him leaving.  This can be chalked up to really bad luck.

There isn't a clear answer to what has happened in 2020-21 and 2021-22.  I don't think it is a coaching issue, because it there was stuff going on behind the scenes that was not great, something would have leaked by now and there would be another great exodus (the surprise was Bruns, but there appears to be other factors at play with this one, if it wasn't for COVID Igbanugo would have graduated this year, and McGrath  just didn't work out, which happens). *This can still change and we shall see if there is more movement coming.

The 2020-21 season, they took a team that lost Stewart and Walter to graduation, and DAE to injury and opt-out in the season, took in several new pieces and finished 8-8 in the conference.  Beat USD three times with Umude and AJ, beat NDSU (should have beaten them twice that year), and took one game down in ORU.   Was there dissapointing losses in that season, yes.  However, they did show that they could compete and beat some of the big knockers (minus SDSU). I'm not saying that this is where UND needs to be, but progress was being made.

I think there is another thing you can consider: poor decision making on the players part.  I can think of a few players that were better served staying here than moving on.

This year: Everything went wrong.  

Yeah, losing Bruns sucks... but they only won 6 games. Lets not act like he can't be replaced.

There is reason for optimism:  Eaglestaff and Omot are legit.  Mathews is going to take a big jump (in my mind).  A healthy Nero and Levias back in the fold.  Norman and T improving as well.  Sueker hopefully coming back. Grant improving his shot over the summer.  Plus:  still have 3 open scholarships to find talent.  Get a talented point guard, another big and another scoring threat and they will be back in business.

Beauty about basketball:  It can go quickly, but you can fix it quickly if you hit the right buttons.  

 

 

 

 

 

[gfhockey]

15 minutes ago, ZDosch said:

The assistant (s)

If I was burns why would I want to go to a team with a head coach thst you may or may not have been in the plans 

[ND-fan]

I agree with you basketball you get two talented players and the whole team can change in short order. I look at the current Summit we have nine teams that are in flux one way or another so we could move up in conference quite quickly if we find that that talent in the next year. South State if they keep their current team which like it sounds and the recruits coming in should be head and shoulders above the rest of the teams in the conference. There problem will be keep that team sharp and playing for ultimate goal of going back to NCAA to make run in the tournament. The Bruns thing stinks in that we had again developed player into talent that could have provided team with one future top talented players for this team. So no use going over spilled milk but now were looking again players that are elite talent to build this program off setting us back year to develop them. 

Looking at the Summit by teams NDSU has the most returning of core even with large number of transfers, South Dakota if the new coach can retain number of players in transfer portal they could be big factor and i don't think Bruns fits in other than depth because they have AJ coming back and Archambault already head of him, ORU can be effective but loss Abmas reduces to them one star player left in McBride, Western Illinois who knows what they will have could be good or very bad have gone the route of putting team of transfer together, KC could be contender for one of the top spots behind SDSU, St. Thomas will be building and may be factor later in the season, Ohama has Filder  but will have new coach so i bet it takes year before we get a direction of that program, and Finally we have Denver could be sleeper if they get another good recruiting year they were competitive down the stretch this year. 

[SWSiouxMN]

Just now, ND-fan said:

I agree with you basketball you get two talented players and the whole team can change in short order. I look at the current Summit we have nine teams that are in flux one way or another so we could move up in conference quite quickly if we find that that talent in the next year. South State if they keep their current team which like it sounds and the recruits coming in should be head and shoulders above the rest of the teams in the conference. There problem will be keep that team sharp and playing for ultimate goal of going back to NCAA to make run in the tournament. The Bruns thing stinks in that we had again developed player into talent that could have provided team with one future top talented players for this team. So no use going over spilled milk but now were looking again players that are elite talent to build this program off setting us back year to develop them. 

Looking at the Summit by teams NDSU has the most returning of core even with large number of transfers, South Dakota if the new coach can retain number of players in transfer portal they could be big factor and i don't think Bruns fits in other than depth because they have AJ coming back and Archambault already head of him, ORU can be effective but loss Abmas reduces to them one star player left in McBride, Western Illinois who knows what they will have could be good or very bad have gone the route of putting team of transfer together, KC could be contender for one of the top spots behind SDSU, St. Thomas will be building and may be factor later in the season, Ohama has Filder  but will have new coach so i bet it takes year before we get a direction of that program, and Finally we have Denver could be sleeper if they get another good recruiting year they were competitive down the stretch this year. 

Archambault went into the portal today. 

[Kab]

I would give eaglestaff more credit than being here one year

a little early to be saying that, if that is the case why would he come in the first place

Maybe Archambeau will want to come here and play with him 

[ND-fan]

I hadn't looked at the verbal commits today and i was surprised with that transfer especially him being South Dakota kid. New coach at South Dakota will have his work cut out for him if looses all these kids in transfer portal. Also will be interesting if we see some changes in coaching staff as well or Lee will be only one paying for irregularities.

[NewUndFan]

10 minutes ago, Kab said:

I would give eaglestaff more credit than being here one year

a little early to be saying that, if that is the case why would he come in the first place

Maybe Archambeau will want to come here and play with him 

I know Sather offered him.  I thought we had him until South Dakota jumped in. 

[CMSioux]

6 hours ago, siouxfan512 said:

Have to say I haven't followed UND basketball closely since Hooker and Crandell were playing. Anytime we seem to get a guy with some potential, we can't hold on to him. Is this a product of coaching, lack of team success, transfer rules, a combo? FWIW I know transfer rules don't help, but seems to be hurting UND more than the other Dakota schools, so I'm not sure that is the most valid reason.

Enjoy the 1 year we get of Eaglestaff, because unless he comes in an is magically surrounded by talent, I can't see him or anyone else wanting to stay. There seems to be a major lack of culture within the program.

There seems to be an ongoing discussion around football as to if the program is in the right place and how do we get more talent, how do we become competitive every year. Football seems to be a non-issue compared to basketball. Just seems like this entire program has been circling the drain for a little while now. Then again, I'm no great basketball mind. Maybe I'm way off base, but a 6-25 team (2-16 conf) losing Bruns doesn't get me overly excited for what is to come.

Open to thoughts and opinions from people who are more in the know with basketball and this program.

Well, I'm not a great basketball mind and I may be way off base but the portal is hurting everyone, it seems worse because we are closer to our team. After 2020 season we lost a graduate transfer, an academic risk who bolted, and a couple of others for different reasons. This year we lost our best player to player tampering combined with the opportunity to play closer to home. The last 2 years has been an anomaly - yes for every school. Sather deserves a few more years - and will get it.  

[siouxfan512]

7 hours ago, CMSioux said:

Well, I'm not a great basketball mind and I may be way off base but the portal is hurting everyone, it seems worse because we are closer to our team. After 2020 season we lost a graduate transfer, an academic risk who bolted, and a couple of others for different reasons. This year we lost our best player to player tampering combined with the opportunity to play closer to home. The last 2 years has been an anomaly - yes for every school. Sather deserves a few more years - and will get it.  

I won't say Sather should got immediately, because again, I'm not the best person when it comes to basketball. But what has he done to deserve a few more years. Glad to eat crow if I'm wrong, just doesn't seem like he has built anything and really moved the program forward since he has been here.

[sioux24/7]

8 hours ago, siouxfan512 said:

I won't say Sather should got immediately, because again, I'm not the best person when it comes to basketball. But what has he done to deserve a few more years. Glad to eat crow if I'm wrong, just doesn't seem like he has built anything and really moved the program forward since he has been here.

I will say he deserves 1 year. He’s been dealt a tough hand no doubt but things need to change and need to change quickly. 

[jdub27]

1 hour ago, sioux24/7 said:

I will say he deserves 1 year. He’s been dealt a tough hand no doubt but things need to change and need to change quickly. 

I honestly don't see how a new coach immediately changes the transfer portal problem, which is literally the root of what is causing the issues right now.

I believe that Sather has the backing he needs from the AD to continue his process (and I fully agree with it). He is an excellent coach and can build a program. I really don't know how you prevent outside people getting in the ear's of the players you are using to build the program (looking specifically at Ihenacho and Bruns). I'm not sure anyone has the answer right now either. Similar things are happening at all the Dakota schools, the problem is UND is just at a bad spot in the cyclical nature of things right now and its becoming tougher to dig out of that hole. 

One player felt he should have had bigger and better offers. UND invested a lot of time getting the person eligible at the D1 level. They were rewarded by him bolting to "something bigger and better" the first chance they had.
Another was completely ignored by their local schools. UND gave them the playing time immediately to show how they were mistaken. It was used against them and that player was talked into coming to play back home.

I don't necessarily think that changes with a new coach. What are they going to offer? It isn't more playing time or a bigger role. Those players already had all of that. 

[sioux24/7]

You’re probably mostly right but either way, we can’t stay at the bottom of the Summit. I get we are in some kind of cyclical rut with the portal but we need to adapt. 

[NewUndFan]

33 minutes ago, jdub27 said:

I honestly don't see how a new coach immediately changes the transfer portal problem, which is literally the root of what is causing the issues right now.

I believe that Sather has the backing he needs from the AD to continue his process (and I fully agree with it). He is an excellent coach and can build a program. I really don't know how you prevent outside people getting in the ear's of the players you are using to build the program (looking specifically at Ihenacho and Bruns). I'm not sure anyone has the answer right now either. Similar things are happening at all the Dakota schools, the problem is UND is just at a bad spot in the cyclical nature of things right now and its becoming tougher to dig out of that hole. 

One player felt he should have had bigger and better offers. UND invested a lot of time getting the person eligible at the D1 level. They were rewarded by him bolting to "something bigger and better" the first chance they had.
Another was completely ignored by their local schools. UND gave them the playing time immediately to show how they were mistaken. It was used against them and that player was talked into coming to play back home.

I don't necessarily think that changes with a new coach. What are they going to offer? It isn't more playing time or a bigger role. Those players already had all of that. 

Like you said all the other schools are facing the same portal transfer issues.  Sather still needs to prove that he can recruit and play for championships in the Summit.  The other coaches are facing the same issues.    We cant keep using that as a excuse to stay at the bottom of the Summit.  

[iramurphy]

10 hours ago, siouxfan512 said:

I won't say Sather should got immediately, because again, I'm not the best person when it comes to basketball. But what has he done to deserve a few more years. Glad to eat crow if I'm wrong, just doesn't seem like he has built anything and really moved the program forward since he has been here.

He deserves?  The guy is working his tail off to bring in the best players he can, bring in the best assistants he can with a limited budget and a lukewarm (at best) fan base. 
What always amazes me is how many fans only answer to a teams struggles is to fire the coach. 
A fan base is best served by all of us trying to figure out what we can do to move the programs forward. Butts in the seats is a top priority. I realize winning solves that but supporting programs as they rebuild with whatever we can afford will move programs forward faster than firing coaches.  
Very few fans including former players understand the complexities and challenges of coaching at this level. Coaching youth FB, BB, VB, or Bantam hockey doesn’t mean I could coach at the HS much less college level. As you move up, you realize how much more you need to learn, but especially managing the players as they mature (or fail to).  There are a lot of naive fans who think patience and rebuilding a program means those folks are satisfied with mediocrity. That is far from the truth but usually comes from those with a very shallow understanding of everything involved. 

[gfhockey]

28 minutes ago, iramurphy said:

He deserves?  The guy is working his tail off to bring in the best players he can, bring in the best assistants he can with a limited budget and a lukewarm (at best) fan base. 
What always amazes me is how many fans only answer to a teams struggles is to fire the coach. 
A fan base is best served by all of us trying to figure out what we can do to move the programs forward. Butts in the seats is a top priority. I realize winning solves that but supporting programs as they rebuild with whatever we can afford will move programs forward faster than firing coaches.  
Very few fans including former players understand the complexities and challenges of coaching at this level. Coaching youth FB, BB, VB, or Bantam hockey doesn’t mean I could coach at the HS much less college level. As you move up, you realize how much more you need to learn, but especially managing the players as they mature (or fail to).  There are a lot of naive fans who think patience and rebuilding a program means those folks are satisfied with mediocrity. That is far from the truth but usually comes from those with a very shallow understanding of everything involved. 

So your happy with being at the bottom in the summit year in and year out

 

would you please tell me Sather’s records since he started? Bet you they degress

[jdub27]

1 hour ago, NewUndFan said:

Like you said all the other schools are facing the same portal transfer issues.  Sather still needs to prove that he can recruit and play for championships in the Summit.  The other coaches are facing the same issues.    We cant keep using that as a excuse to stay at the bottom of the Summit.  

I think he's proven that. At least to a point. Probably took some reaches in a few spots due to unplanned openings and JuCo's are always a roll of the dice. But back to back FPOY is pretty decent (though it'd be nice if all the playing time wasn't out of necessity).
And absolutely no one, including the staff or AD is saying that it is OK. But a new coach isn't going to change it. So let's work with the really good coach we have to solve the problems. Now, I don't know what the answer is, but he/we need to find a way to retain the talent he is recruiting.
In the two high profile cases, it wasn't lack of playing time. In fact, it was probably too much playing time that was the undoing. 
Again, one was a player who felt like he should have been somewhere else in the first place and someone got in his ear that he could. 8th in the CAA doesn't sound super exciting but to each their own.
The other was talked into coming home, likely to play with his brother, to a team that didn't believe in him a year ago. Try before you buy for them I guess.

Yes, other coaches are facing similar issues and it isn't likely to get a ton better. But it is easier to retain when you're winning. Though look 70 miles south and see a few pretty interesting departures. Or players that were "done" but actually were just "done at NDSU".

I do think you need some sort of leader on the team that holds everything together. Not easy to find, but a guy like Q seems to fit that mold. I think there's someone coming in next season that has that extra attachment to UND and might be able to carry that torch. Or maybe it is just wishful thinking on my part.

[siouxfan512]

1 hour ago, iramurphy said:

He deserves?  The guy is working his tail off to bring in the best players he can, bring in the best assistants he can with a limited budget and a lukewarm (at best) fan base. 
What always amazes me is how many fans only answer to a teams struggles is to fire the coach. 
A fan base is best served by all of us trying to figure out what we can do to move the programs forward. Butts in the seats is a top priority. I realize winning solves that but supporting programs as they rebuild with whatever we can afford will move programs forward faster than firing coaches.  
Very few fans including former players understand the complexities and challenges of coaching at this level. Coaching youth FB, BB, VB, or Bantam hockey doesn’t mean I could coach at the HS much less college level. As you move up, you realize how much more you need to learn, but especially managing the players as they mature (or fail to).  There are a lot of naive fans who think patience and rebuilding a program means those folks are satisfied with mediocrity. That is far from the truth but usually comes from those with a very shallow understanding of everything involved. 

FWIW, I wasn't saying he should be fired. When this conversation started, we were discussing whether or not Sather should be extended. As mentioned, I'm not a huge basketball guy, so I'll listen to what most of you have to say.

Though I know it has been stated that everyone is dealing with transfer portal issues, we seem to be the ones at the bottom of the league. The other Dakota schools seem to be competing within the Summit just fine. If we keep losing our top guys after just one year, maybe we have a flaw in our recruiting process.

I do get the budget conversation more. Money can certainly play a factor here in terms of who we hire and what we provide the athletes (though the accommodations give to athletes these days are beyond ridiculous, to then have kids still not satisfied and looking for better. So many of these athletes have turned into entitled whiny babies - I think they often forget they get the opportunity to play a college sport and get an education.)

Serious question though ... what do you think a realistic timeline is for a rebuild? I always though that was one of the benefits of college programs, is that if a new coach comes in, he has the potential to be successful and start showing improvement within 3-4 years. At that point he has recruited, developed and coach all of his own players. Of course that is assuming there haven't been a bunch of issues within that rebuild. Sather has had some time to start that process and has brought some nice talent in, only to see it walk out the door. So is that a product of he coaching of the kids, managing of the team, recruiting the wrong players? Can it really all be attributed to bad luck? Seems like a combo of bad luck and bad decisions, but I could be wrong. So a follow up to my last questions; How much more time should Sather be given to show some sort of progress with this rebuild? If you look at where this team is, we only seem to be moving backwards. Given were we are right now (with a lot of rebuilding left to go); can Sather turn it around in 1 more year? Does he get an extension for another 3-4 years to try to keep that rebuild going? That seems like a risky gamble for a guy who hasn't exactly made any progress year over year. I'm completely open to the opinion that Sather should stay and get extended and is doing the right things, just looking for a little more context ..... Why? How long should he get? What is he doing right to justify it? What does he need to fix that he has yet to show and progress towards being competitive?

[SIOUXFAN97]

On 3/22/2022 at 12:26 PM, Kab said:

You think any of this shows up in a recorded or printed record?

doubtful 

if the heraldo didn't just heraldo maybe they could break a story or just keep eating pizza and tweeting dumb stuff

[Kab]

Has anyone talked to a ball player and asked them what they think of the coach and direction the program is going?

Dosch is probably in the know more than anyone.

[iramurphy]

1 hour ago, gfhockey said:

So your happy with being at the bottom in the summit year in and year out

 

would you please tell me Sather’s records since he started? Bet you they degress

My happiness doesn’t depend on where we are in the Summit, NCHC, or MVC. I am no longer playing or coaching. I know where we finished in each conference. I’m not happy with any failure and I get satisfaction with success. I still want our teams to win as badly as other fans but UND athletics is entertainment and doesn’t define me. The only thing I can do is try to attend games and support UND financially. I don’t believe our fans or even the media with few exceptions know enough to be involved in hiring or firing coaches. That frankly includes you and I.  Even those with inside info only know a little more than the rest of us. My opinion is based my own experience as an athlete, coach and fan at multiple levels, and I don’t believe I have seen anything yet that would indicate a need for a change nor any evidence we have a solid succession plan in place. Just my opinion. 
 

[nodak651]

Is Sather able to recruit D1 guys in the transfer portal?  There are 600.  Is he strategically targeting JuCo players as a strategy, thinking they may be overlooked due to the huge number of players in the portal?  If he has an old school way of thinking, in that he doesn't want to recuit a D1 transfer or something, I think that would be a problem.  Does the basketball program have good enough facilities to attract D1 transfers?  How do our locker rooms and lounges compare to other mid/low majors in the region?  Perhaps investment in this area could help to attract and retain talent.  

[nodak651]

1 minute ago, Kab said:

Has anyone talked to a ball player and asked them what they think of the coach and direction the program is going?

Dosch is probably in the know more than anyone.

On the reaching the Summit pod, he has consistently been complementary to Sather.  He was really high on the future of the program between season end and before Bruns transferred.

[iramurphy]

43 minutes ago, siouxfan512 said:

FWIW, I wasn't saying he should be fired. When this conversation started, we were discussing whether or not Sather should be extended. As mentioned, I'm not a huge basketball guy, so I'll listen to what most of you have to say.

Though I know it has been stated that everyone is dealing with transfer portal issues, we seem to be the ones at the bottom of the league. The other Dakota schools seem to be competing within the Summit just fine. If we keep losing our top guys after just one year, maybe we have a flaw in our recruiting process.

I do get the budget conversation more. Money can certainly play a factor here in terms of who we hire and what we provide the athletes (though the accommodations give to athletes these days are beyond ridiculous, to then have kids still not satisfied and looking for better. So many of these athletes have turned into entitled whiny babies - I think they often forget they get the opportunity to play a college sport and get an education.)

Serious question though ... what do you think a realistic timeline is for a rebuild? I always though that was one of the benefits of college programs, is that if a new coach comes in, he has the potential to be successful and start showing improvement within 3-4 years. At that point he has recruited, developed and coach all of his own players. Of course that is assuming there haven't been a bunch of issues within that rebuild. Sather has had some time to start that process and has brought some nice talent in, only to see it walk out the door. So is that a product of he coaching of the kids, managing of the team, recruiting the wrong players? Can it really all be attributed to bad luck? Seems like a combo of bad luck and bad decisions, but I could be wrong. So a follow up to my last questions; How much more time should Sather be given to show some sort of progress with this rebuild? If you look at where this team is, we only seem to be moving backwards. Given were we are right now (with a lot of rebuilding left to go); can Sather turn it around in 1 more year? Does he get an extension for another 3-4 years to try to keep that rebuild going? That seems like a risky gamble for a guy who hasn't exactly made any progress year over year. I'm completely open to the opinion that Sather should stay and get extended and is doing the right things, just looking for a little more context ..... Why? How long should he get? What is he doing right to justify it? What does he need to fix that he has yet to show and progress towards being competitive?

You raise good questions. I feel any coach who takes over a struggling program is crazy not to ask for a five year contract especially at our Level of sports except hockey. After 5 years all of your players are your recruits. If there is no significant improvement then a change may be warranted. As for Sather my opinion is no more valid than yours or others but in answer to your question, 3 more years unless something egregious happens. 

[coachdags]

Coach Paul Sather is not the problem...

UND decided to enter the D1 Basketball sports horizon 350 Schools, then they need to invest into it. We have inadequate and dated facilities compared to other D1 institutions, I'm not even sure we can compete with our pier Schools like NDSU, SDSU, USD, OR in the Summit, and definitely not against the likes of Creighton, Minnesota, Northern Iowa, Wisconsin.  We need Locker Rooms, Weight Rooms, Study Areas, Film and Media Rooms, Entertainment Areas and more...

Our Collective Coaches Salary and Support Staff Budget is most likely under 500,000.

D1 Hockey is a regional sport at best with only 60+ Schools participating, we have a State of the Art Arena, Locker Rooms, Training Areas, Film, Media, Entertainment Rooms, Kitchen for meals, Study Areas, Weight Room, Practice ice and more...

Our Collective Coaches Salary and Support Staff Budget is probably over 1.5 million dollars +...

Bottom line is improve the areas that need improvement, more kids will come, they will stay, we will win.

Need to invest in the program to grow it, If Hockey never had Mr. Engelstad to invest starting back in the 80"s our program would never have reach the National Acclaim and heights it has.

We will never be a Duke, Kansas, Michigan State, but with some added investment by fans, alumni, UND it can be a solid Mid Major type Institution. 

[CMSioux]

1 hour ago, coachdags said:

Coach Paul Sather is not the problem...

UND decided to enter the D1 Basketball sports horizon 350 Schools, then they need to invest into it. We have inadequate and dated facilities compared to other D1 institutions, I'm not even sure we can compete with our pier Schools like NDSU, SDSU, USD, OR in the Summit, and definitely not against the likes of Creighton, Minnesota, Northern Iowa, Wisconsin.  We need Locker Rooms, Weight Rooms, Study Areas, Film and Media Rooms, Entertainment Areas and more...

Our Collective Coaches Salary and Support Staff Budget is most likely under 500,000.

D1 Hockey is a regional sport at best with only 60+ Schools participating, we have a State of the Art Arena, Locker Rooms, Training Areas, Film, Media, Entertainment Rooms, Kitchen for meals, Study Areas, Weight Room, Practice ice and more...

Our Collective Coaches Salary and Support Staff Budget is probably over 1.5 million dollars +...

Bottom line is improve the areas that need improvement, more kids will come, they will stay, we will win.

Need to invest in the program to grow it, If Hockey never had Mr. Engelstad to invest starting back in the 80"s our program would never have reach the National Acclaim and heights it has.

We will never be a Duke, Kansas, Michigan State, but with some added investment by fans, alumni, UND it can be a solid Mid Major type Institution. 

I understand it's dangerous to compare one sport to another, but if you want to have the expectations then the support needs to be a little better for the struggling sports. Heck the chef for one sport probably makes more than the assistant coaches for the other sports.