ND High School Hockey 2018-19

[Dakota Dingers]

34 minutes ago, OgieOgilthorpe said:

I would love for this to happen, and I agree that more Jr. Gold teams would finally switch over to HS hockey if it did happen. That Jr. Gold league has been broken for a while now. Plus maybe even Whap would come back?

Unfortunately I think there are still quite a few kinks in the plan that makes it more complicated than it seems. But I also see a lot of positives to it as well!

-If the Jr. Gold league did fold due to the 2 tier HS league, then GF and Fargo would lose their teams and a lot of kids would miss out on being able to play hockey after 9th grade. Although, Fargo Shanley+OG and South might be able to split back up eventually due to the higher numbers.

-In 1A the travel distances would get pretty extensive, especially if some of the Jr. Gold teams did join. 2A travel would actually get better, outside of extra trips to MNPLS to play possibly

- I see a lot of AA teams and A teams ending up scheduling each other a lot anyway. But with this new setup, the more elite teams could have the freedom to schedule more out of state games. Keeping the league game number low would keep the freedom of scheduling high. 

-Would the A/AA split be by enrollment or skill level or? Teams like Mandan, Dickinson, Williston, WFS, and Jamestown+VC will fit the bill for AA but will fit in much better competitively in A. Same goes for some of the weaker Fargo/WF teams that seem to rotate. Then teams like Grafton and Devils Lake will often fit in much better AA but will have enrollment numbers for A. This is a common problem everywhere for every sport, but it's just something to think about.

- Any time there is a top tier player from any of the A teams, they're surely going to transfer to a AA school or even out of state while they're at it. Which would really hurt the morale and tradition at some of these schools bound to be put in the A pool. If 1A has an enrollment maximum and AA has no minimum, then quite a few schools are going to push to be AA. Who would want to drive their program downward by losing their best players to AA schools and by having to play less competitive teams? MN has the luxury of having enough schools in each league to help minimize some of this, but in ND it would end up being a pretty big swing between the 2 leagues eventually. In MN both A and AA teams are able to hold onto players and traditions just because of the sheer numbers in each level...ND would not have that luxury, and would eventually be turning 1A into a JV league essentially. 

It's frustrating how obvious this decision is to everyone but the state and AD's.  They are comfortable switching up the football conferences every other year, but it seems like it takes an act of congress to even consider reworking the hockey setup.

- Jr. Gold could still exist in Fargo and GF, they would just have to rely on MN and SD tournaments. It would probably look more like a Youth AAA program.

- Travel wouldn't be a big issue for the eastern half of the state as they have MN to pull from. The west is obviously a different story.

- I think you'd almost have to split up the A/AA by enrollment. Maybe there is one or two teams that are on the bubble that would have to declare intentions for x amount of years at a time. If everyone played on a points system and then it was split into a Gold and Silver bracket like they do in the youth state tournaments, you'd end up with programs devaluing the lower bracket. 

-It's weird how hockey is the only sport where top end player retention is a big deal. You don't hear about elite basketball players moving from B schools to A schools. Maybe i'm naive and this happens all the time.  

[Sioux>Bison]

6 hours ago, iluvdebbies said:

Makes plenty of sense right now. 19 teams.....AA Would be the 5 Fargo teams, 2 Grand Forks teams, 2  from Bismarck and Minot.

A....would have 9 to start with.  I think more would want in after the two class system was established.

No way Dickinson, Williston, or Jamestown will allow themselves to be dropped to the second highest level. It doesn’t matter if those teams have never been competitive they won’t be happy.

[The Sicatoka]

Would a relegation scheme work like in World Juniors?  

[Siouxphan27]

22 hours ago, Sioux>Bison said:

So when is Mayville going to be allowed to compete in the east region?

 

22 hours ago, sioux rube said:

I believe next season 

So by compete, what do we mean exactly?   Are they going to play a full east region schedule against varsity teams?   Or just a few varsity level games?  Or like this year, just having a crack at a region qualifying game?

[Wilbur]

AA Teams:  Williston, Dickinson, Minot, Bismarck High, Century, Mandan, Devils Lake, Jamestown, GFC, GFRR, West Fargo, WF Sheyenne, Fargo North, Fargo South, Davies.  

A Teams:  Crosby, Watford City, Hazen, Bottineau, Langdon, Mayport, Grafton.

Class A seems a little thin, but maybe you would see Wahpeton come back to North Dakota, and possibly Shanley going off on their own again to play in the lower division. 

Questions: When will Legacy have hockey?  How far out are we from the next WF high school?

I'll hang up and listen. 

[Yote 53]

19 hours ago, iramurphy said:

You don't want a "full season" opportunity for younger kids.  Medical studies show kids who play only one sport especially without  taking breaks have more injuries and peak at an earlier age. 

"Full season" in this context refers to playing the entire hockey season on one team as opposed to Team North Dakota Before/After and HS season, not year round.  The season runs from Sept-March.  Also, we're talking about midgets here, 15-18 year olds, at that age kids across all sports have started to specialize, including hockey, and it falls in line with USA Hockey's LTAD model.  I'm not talking about Squirt or Pee Wee hockey here.

The way it is right now, between the fall elite league/AAA hockey in the fall, winter hockey, spring camps/clinics/tryouts, and summer Junior tryouts, if you are an upper level player in the 16-18 year old range that is looking to play hockey beyond high school (junior/college) you are on the ice 10-11 months of the year.

[Yote 53]

18 hours ago, The Sicatoka said:

I know this is blasphemy, but in hockey why don't ND and SD do a combined AA and A two-state system. 

Most of SD would be A but a couple teams might be AA worthy. 

And I'm saying this for both boys and girls hockey. 

South Dakota High School hockey is not a varsity sponsored sport by the SDHSAA.  It is club based and registered/rostered under USA Hockey's high school division.  It's one of the reasons teams from South Dakota/Iowa/Nebraska cannot schedule Minnesota teams for regular season games.  Because they are not HS varsity sports.

As to the expansion of HS hockey in NoDak, does it being a Varsity sponsored sport actually hinder it's expansion?  When you are dealing with school districts and athletic departments things like resources, budgets, and even Title 9 come into play.

[UND1983]

Is there another sport that encourages 'specialization' like hockey does?  Does it take year round training to be good at it?

[andtheHomeoftheSIOUX!!]

5 minutes ago, UND1983 said:

Is there another sport that encourages 'specialization' like hockey does?  Does it take year round training to be good at it?

Soccer, if a kid wants to play at a high level.  

[Yote 53]

Just now, UND1983 said:

Is there another sport that encourages 'specialization' like hockey does?  I cannot think of one.  

Wrestling, gymnastics, basketball, soccer, tennis, baseball...actually the only sport that has not become "specialized" is football.  Football coaches will take any athlete they can and make them a football player because most football programs are struggling for bodies these days.

USA Hockey preaches playing multiple sports, then runs their camps in the spring and summer.  If your kid is young have them play as many sports as possible.  As they get older and into high school age, if you want to play at a high level, it becomes almost impossible to play three sports.  Two sports max, and that becomes difficult if it's a sport like baseball where gym work started in January.  All sports are guilty of pushing specialization.

[Big Green]

6 minutes ago, UND1983 said:

Is there another sport that encourages 'specialization' like hockey does?  Does it take year round training to be good at it?

No, but Hockey parents think it does.

 

[Walsh Hall]

4 minutes ago, UND1983 said:

Is there another sport that encourages 'specialization' like hockey does?  I cannot think of one.  

Yes, they essentially all do.  That said, it seems to have the most effect in hockey.  The skating component really can't be improved unless you are skating.  The average kids that I have seen really specializing in hockey in the off-season can improve dramatically. 

[UND1983]

2 minutes ago, Yote 53 said:

Wrestling, gymnastics, basketball, soccer, tennis, baseball...actually the only sport that has not become "specialized" is football.  Football coaches will take any athlete they can and make them a football player because most football programs are struggling for bodies these days.

USA Hockey preaches playing multiple sports, then runs their camps in the spring and summer.  If your kid is young have them play as many sports as possible.  As they get older and into high school age, if you want to play at a high level, it becomes almost impossible to play three sports.  Two sports max, and that becomes difficult if it's a sport like baseball where gym work started in January.  All sports are guilty of pushing specialization.

It becomes impossible?  Why is that....

USA Hockey has no interest in multi sport athletes, just like you stated.  It sounds great on a website.

[Big Green]

11 hours ago, Wilbur said:

AA Teams:  Williston, Dickinson, Minot, Bismarck High, Century, Mandan, Devils Lake, Jamestown, GFC, GFRR, West Fargo, WF Sheyenne, Fargo North, Fargo South, Davies.  

A Teams:  Crosby, Watford City, Hazen, Bottineau, Langdon, Mayport, Grafton.

Class A seems a little thin, but maybe you would see Wahpeton come back to North Dakota, and possibly Shanley going off on their own again to play in the lower division. 

Questions: When will Legacy have hockey?  How far out are we from the next WF high school?

I'll hang up and listen. 

No way Grafton would be an A team.  Not with their history.  

[UND1983]

1 minute ago, Walsh Hall said:

Yes, they essentially all do.  That said, it seems to have the most effect in hockey.  The skating component really can't be improved unless you are skating.  The average kids that I have seen really specializing in hockey in the off-season can improve dramatically. 

Not really.  How does Football encourage a kid to play nothing else?  Or Basketball? Or Baseball?  They offer very little in their off-season's meaning a kid can do something else.  BB has AAU ball in April, May and July....that comes close.

[OgieOgilthorpe]

11 hours ago, Wilbur said:

AA Teams:  Williston, Dickinson, Minot, Bismarck High, Century, Mandan, Devils Lake, Jamestown, GFC, GFRR, West Fargo, WF Sheyenne, Fargo North, Fargo South, Davies.  

A Teams:  Crosby, Watford City, Hazen, Bottineau, Langdon, Mayport, Grafton.

Class A seems a little thin, but maybe you would see Wahpeton come back to North Dakota, and possibly Shanley going off on their own again to play in the lower division. 

Questions: When will Legacy have hockey?  How far out are we from the next WF high school?

I'll hang up and listen. 

I smell 15 undefeated state championship seasons for Grafton playing in that A level. 

[Frozen4sioux]

2 hours ago, UND1983 said:

Is there another sport that encourages 'specialization' like hockey does?  Does it take year round training to be good at it?

Yes. Baseball is very much this way now, as well as basketball and many other sports.

You just don't see it because our region is inhospitable to the year round participation. Southern baseball is absolutely year round in the same fashion as "AAA" hockey (hate that designation). The number of pitches thrown year round by early teens in these regions is scary.... but parents seeing 300 million dollars contracts for little Breydynn are just as fanatical as the hockey parents from Minnedakota.

Any sport that has risen to a mid tier college status.....i.e. ...scholorships.... has resulted in parents... not kids... pushing year round specialization.

Football "specialization" comes in the form of weight room time.

Hockey is absolutely about skating. Kids that spend all summer playing tourneys, improve some, maybe. Kids that spend the summer on specialized skating camps and programs, grow leaps and bounds.

These things can be intertwined with a summer baseball, lacrosse, golf season.

USA Hockey preaches out  both sides of the mouth on playing multiple sports but some work better with each other.

 

 

[northernraider]

13 minutes ago, Frozen4sioux said:

Yes. Baseball is very much this way now, as well as basketball and many other sports.

 

 

 

As someone that grow up in the south, can confirm baseball is the southern equivalent of hockey. High School season goes from late February to May. Then you get into summer leagues, fall travel leagues, and winter practices. 

[Walsh Hall]

17 minutes ago, Frozen4sioux said:

Yes. Baseball is very much this way now, as well as basketball and many other sports.

You just don't see it because our region is inhospitable to the year round participation. Southern baseball is absolutely year round in the same fashion as "AAA" hockey (hate that designation). The number of pitches thrown year round by early teens in these regions is scary.... but parents seeing 300 million dollars contracts for little Breydynn are just as fanatical as the hockey parents from Minnedakota.

Any sport that has risen to a mid tier college status.....i.e. ...scholorships.... has resulted in parents... not kids... pushing year round specialization.

Football "specialization" comes in the form of weight room time.

Hockey is absolutely about skating. Kids that spend all summer playing tourneys, improve some, maybe. Kids that spend the summer on specialized skating camps and programs, grow leaps and bounds.

These things can be intertwined with a summer baseball, lacrosse, golf season.

USA Hockey preaches out  both sides of the mouth on playing multiple sports but some work better with each other.

 

 

I agree 100%  I've seen kids 14-16 quit basketball to focus on baseball.  These kids would have been very good HS basketball players and previously had done the AAU... stuff.  That said, I believe hockey is the sport where there is the most potential benefit from off-season work due to the rather unique skating issue.

[Walsh Hall]

2 hours ago, UND1983 said:

Not really.  How does Football encourage a kid to play nothing else?  Or Basketball? Or Baseball?  They offer very little in their off-season's meaning a kid can do something else.  BB has AAU ball in April, May and July....that comes close.

With kids that have played/play on many traveling teams, I can tell you 100% that basketball and baseball are the same way for the kids (parents) that think they have the potential to get a scholarship... in that sport.  It's the same for hockey.  80% of the squirts do little or nothing in the off-season, but some go crazy.

It would drive me nuts how seriously some parents would take travel baseball for 9 yr olds.  Off season work indoors, camps..., were the norm for many even at that age.

[Frozen4sioux]

1 hour ago, Walsh Hall said:

 It would drive me nuts how seriously some parents would take travel baseball for 9 yr olds.  Off season work indoors, camps..., were the norm for many even at that age.

bigger towns.. ala fargo... bismarck... running 9 10 11 year old travel teams or team is the worst way to develop too.

12 kids per year are basically picked to run all over the midwest to play a few games.. for what... to someday MAYBE get to play at a d3 school... NO. Stupid. Waste of money. 

Want to develop. focus on in town competition... practice 3 times per baseball game... same for hockey.

Save the money.  Let the kids play and grow and develop. This picking of 12 kids per year class out of 100,000 population cities is a sure way to never develop a serious program, spend a lot of money and drive hundreds of kids out of the sports.

[gfhockey]

Look at the grand forks model for all star teams

 

it just works 

[Frozen4sioux]

https://kfgo.com/podcasts/news-views-with-joel-heitkamp/117905/former-bismarck-high-boys-hockey-coach-mike-peluso-i-want-to-see-it-get-better/

[TheFlop]

8 hours ago, UND1983 said:

Is there another sport that encourages 'specialization' like hockey does?  Does it take year round training to be good at it?

Hockey was the first one in Grand Forks but was followed closely by others.  The better soccer kids have to go to Fargo (or further) for indoor winter games.  Basketball players have their AAU teams.....etc.  The "traveling" portion of most sports used to last a month or two after the regular season if you were good enough/well connected.....or both.  Now almost every sport is year round if you want it to be.

[AJS]

21 hours ago, Wilbur said:

AA Teams:  Williston, Dickinson, Minot, Bismarck High, Century, Mandan, Devils Lake, Jamestown, GFC, GFRR, West Fargo, WF Sheyenne, Fargo North, Fargo South, Davies.  

A Teams:  Crosby, Watford City, Hazen, Bottineau, Langdon, Mayport, Grafton.

Class A seems a little thin, but maybe you would see Wahpeton come back to North Dakota, and possibly Shanley going off on their own again to play in the lower division. 

Questions: When will Legacy have hockey?  How far out are we from the next WF high school?

I'll hang up and listen. 

I'm pretty sure most of the players on South/Shanley are from Shanley.