The Sanctions and Punishments Have Arrived

[UNDColorado]

Sorry if this has been posted, but here is The Hockey News take: http://www.thehockeynews.com/articles/45179-Kennedy-Battle-over-North-Dakota-Fighting-Sioux-nickname-ramps-up.html

[fightingsioux4life]

Yes, I love UND athletics. My loyalty will NEVER wain! I am as proud as supporter as you and probably as anyone else (maybe not trying to judge)....but my persona online might be different than my real life persona....I love playing devils advocate.

Okay, that is fair. I guess I get a little passionate and ornery about this issue. Nothing personal.

[Snake]

Sorry if this has been posted, but here is The Hockey News take: http://www.thehockey...e-ramps-up.html

Does he have his facts straight?

Of course it’s the players who lose out here. The men’s team has “neutral-themed” jerseys on order in case the squad makes it to the Frozen Four – and with 15 NHL draft picks on the roster, including first-rounders Brock Nelson and Derek Forbort, that’s not a stretch – but state law would prevent them from wearing the alternative sweaters. What, exactly, is the university’s sports department supposed to do?

It's my understanding that the law doesn't force the logo on the uniforms, so they would be able to compete and avoid forfeiture at the NCAA level with "generic" unis.

[iluvdebbies]

Does he have his facts straight?

It's my understanding that the law doesn't force the logo on the uniforms, so they would be able to compete and avoid forfeiture at the NCAA level with "generic" unis.

he does not have all the facts straight.....the law does not pertain to non logo unis....further these unis must be worn at the start of the ncaas not just frozen four. I dont care if he wants to have a opinion on this.... but i have some advice for ryan....do your homework and get the facts straight !

[zonadub]

Sorry if this has been posted, but here is The Hockey News take: http://www.thehockey...e-ramps-up.html

a couple of very interesting paragraphs...

But the fun and games ends now because North Dakota needs the NCAA more than the other way around. A Frozen Four without UND would be a shame, given that recent alumni include Jonathan Toews, Zach Parise and T.J. Oshie. But Michigan, Boston College and Minnesota bring just as much profile to the table.

On the other hand, what high-profile recruit is going to come to a school that literally has no shot at a national title? Here’s a perfect case study for you: Right now, top 2013 draft prospect Seth Jones is deciding where he’ll play next season. The U.S. national team development program defenseman can head to the Western League’s Everett Silvertips, or a college program. One school high on his list is North Dakota. Jones would be the biggest UND recruit since Toews – in fact, one NHL exec told me it was unfair for the 2011 draft-eligible blueliners on the NTDP when Jones was on the ice, because all the scouts were watching the Texas native. That was last year, when he was supposed to be with the under-17 team, not the under-18s.

even the hockey fans that want the logo on the front of the jersey have got to see what it could do to the program...

[Benny Baker]

Sorry if this has been posted, but here is The Hockey News take: http://www.thehockey...e-ramps-up.html

This is way off the mark. The name and logo do not have to be on the jerseys. UND's men's hockey will be, in my opinion, the least affected program by the NCAA sanctions. "Literally no shot at a national title?" Give me a break.

[Fetch]

All we have to do is have one that just says ND for the rare occasion it is a ncaa tournament

Not a big deal & worth changing the Name & Logo

[zonadub]

the other problem, brought up earlier by Sica, ira or someone else much smarter than I am... if the nickname stays, the next tribal council or the next or the next, can rescind their tribe's endorsement of the nickname, just like Standing Rock has already done. All it would take is one or two voices to persuade the council to take another vote. After all, the ND State Legislature did it twice in less than a year. Perceptions can change at any time. The controversy, as long as the nickname is the Fighting Sioux, will never go away. I am an old, white man, so I can't speak for Sioux tribal members now or in the future.

It may be different if UND is called the Flames (or Cougars with a nod to that Utah high school). Again, how about WASPS? Won't like it as well, not in any way, shape or form, but it is what it is.

[UND1983]

All we have to do is have one that just says ND for the rare occasion it is a ncaa tournament

Not a big deal & worth changing the Name & Logo

That is great "hockey-only" take. There are more sports than hockey.

[luapsided]

That is great "hockey-only" take. There are more sports than hockey.

True and I do follow many, but might as well talk about the biggest one as a reference to the others. Otherwise sentences will get quite long if we have to name every sport in every explanation.....

[ScottM]

That is great "hockey-only" take. There are more sports than hockey.

You'll have to forgive Felch. He likes to indulge in paint chips.

[luapsided]

Okay, that is fair. I guess I get a little passionate and ornery about this issue. Nothing personal.

If anyone here takes things too personal, I feel sorry for them.

[UNDColorado]

The Hockey News definitely got it a bit wrong but you all needed to see this. What a !@$! show!

[ScottM]

the other problem, brought up earlier by Sica, ira or someone else much smarter than I am... if the nickname stays, the next tribal council or the next or the next, can rescind their tribe's endorsement of the nickname, just like Standing Rock has already done. All it would take is one or two voices to persuade the council to take another vote. After all, the ND State Legislature did it twice in less than a year. Perceptions can change at any time. The controversy, as long as the nickname is the Fighting Sioux, will never go away. I am an old, white man, so I can't speak for Sioux tribal members now or in the future. It may be different if UND is called the Flames (or Cougars with a nod to that Utah high school). Again, how about WASPS? Won't like it as well, not in any way, shape or form, but it is what it is.

It's one of the reasons I figured the Sioux name at UND could become a hindrance for UND when the settlement agreement was released. The tribes are sovereign nations. Even if they agreed to UND's use in 2005, nothing would ever prevent either one or both from withdrawing that support at some point, and we'd be having this same problem. Try suing SL or SR for a governmental decision. In my view, in making any school's use of a tribal name subject to tribal consent, the NC$$ effectively holds the school "hostage" to the whims of tribal politics. Just look at the "back and forth" amongst the various SR and SL factions we've seen over the past few years over the Sioux moniker. You can bet it would become a political football at some point.

[CMSioux]

I thought I read in the paper via a quote from Al-Tila the Legislator that there no penalty for violating this law.

[Snake]

All we have to do is have one that just says ND for the rare nearly annual occasion it is a ncaa tournament

Not a big deal & worth changing the Name & Logo

FYP

[82SiouxGuy]

It's one of the reasons I figured the Sioux name at UND could become a hindrance for UND when the settlement agreement was released. The tribes are sovereign nations. Even if they agreed to UND's use in 2005, nothing would ever prevent either one or both from withdrawing that support at some point, and we'd be having this same problem. Try suing SL or SR for a governmental decision. In my view, in making any school's use of a tribal name subject to tribal consent, the NC$$ effectively holds the school "hostage" to the whims of tribal politics. Just look at the "back and forth" amongst the various SR and SL factions we've seen over the past few years over the Sioux moniker. You can bet it would become a political football at some point.

I remember that the volatility of Tribal Councils was a topic of conversation on this board at settlement time. Many of us thought that the SBoHE would need to find a way to get a specific length for a commitment from the Tribal Councils, an open or unlimited approval would be too easy to change. I'm sure that's why the SBoHE wanted to ask for a 30 year commitment. Even if Spirit Lake actually wins the lawsuit and gets the NCAA to change their policy, we can't be sure that the problem won't come back again in the future.

[82SiouxGuy]

I thought I read in the paper via a quote from Al-Tila the Legislator that there no penalty for violating this law.

You are correct.

[82SiouxGuy]

No... if you favor changing the name then you are by definition anti-nickname. Nice try, but I see through your spin.

And you would best be described as anti-University instead of pro-nickname. But I still like nickname-at-all-costs.

[luapsided]

I'd rather call it an icon than a nickname. We are not forced to wear anything with the sioux head on it. Alternate jerseys are just fine if it comes to national games.

[BigGreyAnt41]

No... if you favor changing the name then you are by definition anti-nickname. Nice try, but I see through your spin.

More like "anti-UND-sports-teams-using-the-nickname". Just because we want UND to stop using it doesn't mean we dislike it or think it's "hostile or abusive". We just recognize the impending damage that will be caused by keeping it.

[82SiouxGuy]

I'd rather call it an icon than a nickname. We are not forced to wear anything with the sioux head on it. Alternate jerseys are just fine if it comes to national games.

You can call it anything you'd like, it doesn't change the fact that it's a sports nickname. If wearing the alternative jerseys were the only sanction it would be a much smaller problem, but other issues like not hosting playoffs, schools refusing to play against UND and the other rumors that schools will use against UND in recruiting are much larger problems.

[ScottM]

I remember that the volatility of Tribal Councils was a topic of conversation on this board at settlement time. Many of us thought that the SBoHE would need to find a way to get a specific length for a commitment from the Tribal Councils, an open or unlimited approval would be too easy to change. I'm sure that's why the SBoHE wanted to ask for a 30 year commitment. Even if Spirit Lake actually wins the lawsuit and gets the NCAA to change their policy, we can't be sure that the problem won't come back again in the future.

I never bought into the 30 year framework. If some branch of SR government is willing to dismiss a pipe ceremony conducted on its own land, it could just as easily dismiss a written agreement. Witness the change in tone on SL. At first they didn't care or opposed UND's use of the Sioux moniker. Now they're trying to hang it around our neck. Again, these are sovereign nations and suing them for breach of contract is next to impossible. We'd have better luck with Iran or Venezuela.

[Teeder11]

I never bought into the 30 year framework. If some branch of SR government is willing to dismiss a pipe ceremony conducted on its own land, it could just as easily dismiss a written agreement. Witness the change in tone on SL. At first they didn't care or opposed UND's use of the Sioux moniker. Now they're trying to hang it around our neck. Again, these are sovereign nations and suing them for breach of contract is next to impossible. We'd have better luck with Iran or Venezuela.

Good point. Another thought I had is the reason (whether they recognizie it or not) that the nickname-at-all-costs crowd cling to the idea of the legendary 1969 pipe ceremony is because it has an aura about it that is unbreakable or irreversible simply because it is so much more intangible than a signed document, a treaty or a series of "whereases" and "therefores" on a perishable piece of paper. It gives it a sort of mystical treatment that is somehow more important than mere modern tribal law because it is so closely tied to native elders and religion. It also fuels the suggestion that any attempt to question it is equivilent to sacrilege or a tribal form of treason. Finally, for all these reasons, the pipe ceremony is seen as never-ending and immune from modern tribal meddling. Pretty convenient, if you ask me, since pretty much all of the participants in the pipe ceremony are all dead and gone.

Would it simply take another pipe ceremony between UND and Standing Rock to jointly reverse the first pipe ceremony to satisfy the nickname-at-all-costers -- or is the contention that it has to be the original participants in order to make it legit? If that's the case, we'll need to have a seance to raise the dead! Again, how convenient.

[darell1976]

You are correct.

Which is why UND needs to violate that state law and retire the name.