UND @ SDSU (Beat the bunnies)

[nodak651]

16 minutes ago, nodak651 said:

But he choked when it counts in the playoffs vs a terrible coaching staff Please disregard that comment - I know that wasn't really the point.  Utah State this year would be another good example of what you're getting at I suppose.

Sorry in advance for rambling.

Big name coach.  However, given that he brought in, from what I remember, 20-30 transfers, is there any reason to believe that success will be sustained once he leaves after the 3-4 years that has been discussed?  I think putting pressure on a coach to have immediate success can have a negative impact on the culture of the program, as fewer players are "bought in" four/five year players.  With too many transfers, how likely are most of the guys likely to stick around once the coach moves on vs guys recruited as high schoolers who (imo) have more loyalty to the program?  

If you hire a coach and have extremely high expectations for immediate improvement, or if the coach plans to use UND as a stepping stone,, is there a chance that forces the coach to make short term recruiting decisions to the detriment of the long term stability of the program?

For example perhaps he takes in upperclassmen transfers rather than freshman so he can have better roster depth in the short term, as he doesn't really care about what happens with the roster after a huge class graduates because he aims to be hired away to another school anyway, thereby leaving the cupboard bare for the next coach.  There are many examples of coaches turning teams around after one season, but what is the difference between flash in the pan teams and teams who get turned around and then have long term success after the coach leaves right away?  What are the odds of sustained success say Missouri State's coach moves on?  Probably higher than if he didn't coach there at all, but then again UND is nowhere near as low as that program has been.

Long story short, I don't want UND to become a Jacksonville State type program.  If you're aware of that program you'll know what I'm getting at.

Given that this was one of the best and deepest teams ever, which I agree, I just don't see why you don't think the roster can't continue to improve and get deeper along with UND's chances for a championship.  UND's record has been up and down with Bubba, but I think the program has very steadily improved and I think it is still improving.  Until I see evidence to the contrary I think firing Bubba would be too high of a risk/reward to justify firing, though I'd be fine with moving either of the coordinators to HC.  If Bubba is fired I think both would be gone and I don't want them to leave though.

[nodak651]

9 minutes ago, Midwestern Hawk said:

I'm not a proponent of wholesale personnel changes and would rather build from the ground up.  My larger point was how important coaching is in football.  UND beat itself when playing Petrino team @MSU this fall.  Pretty difficult to agrue with Petrino record over time.  If Petrino was coaching this team we would be posting on the first round playoff thread instead of "could haves" and "should haves".  Pretty hard to argue that.

I'm tired of waiting for Bubba and co to get "over the hump".  After this fall, the success of the spring is looking more and more like a fluke and/or a mirage.

 

I understand where you're coming from almost like the whole #firehakstol vs keep Hakstol thing with the hockey team.  Curious - did you have an opinion on that matter before he left?

Speaking of MSU, it would be nice to be able to watch that second half!  Have you seen it available to watch anywhere yet?

[Midwestern Hawk]

3 minutes ago, nodak651 said:

Speaking of, it would be nice to be able to watch that second half!  Have you seen it available to watch anywhere yet?

Nope.  Just the MSU football highlights, which is not the greatest angle.  Just gave the freaking game away.

[Midwestern Hawk]

7 minutes ago, nodak651 said:

Given that this was one of the best and deepest teams ever, which I agree, I just don't see why you don't think the roster can't continue to improve and get deeper along with UND's chances for a championship.  UND's record has been up and down with Bubba, but I think the program has very steadily improved and I think it is still improving.  Until I see evidence to the contrary I think firing Bubba would be too high of a risk/reward to justify firing, though I'd be fine with moving either of the coordinators to HC.  If Bubba is fired I think both would be gone and I don't want them to leave though.

The roster can always improve, but overall, this was a damn good team.   IMO we did NOT play an FCS team this fall which had a superior roster from top to bottom, and that includes the nemesis to our south.  Were teams better at some positions, absolutely, but that will likely always be the case, as it was for NDSU this fall.  Was there an FCS team this fall, where a UND win would be considered lucky or a fluke?  My answer is no.  I felt JMU was the only team we played in the spring with a real roster advantage over us, the NDSU game we just "!@#$ the bed", which ties right back to the coaches.

[Irish]

6 minutes ago, Midwestern Hawk said:

Nope.  Just the MSU football highlights, which is not the greatest angle.  Just gave the freaking game away.

The sad part is that you could make this comment in a different thread and no one would be able to figure which of the games this year you are referring to.  Bubba has absolutely done some good things for this program and has improved both the talent and atmosphere.  The problem is that some things like game management need a serious change and Bubba is allergic to serious change - We saw some real bad game decisions and clock management earlier in the season and here we are after the last game of the season talking about this exact same thing after another brutal loss.  Agreed Bubba isn't going anywhere soon but we really need an adult in the house to have a talk with him - Chaves seems awol so I'm guessing it won't get done.  My frustration is that we'll see the exact same Sideline Bubba next year.  

[Midwestern Hawk]

13 minutes ago, Irish said:

The sad part is that you could make this comment in a different thread and no one would be able to figure which of the games this year you are referring to.  Bubba has absolutely done some good things for this program and has improved both the talent and atmosphere.  The problem is that some things like game management need a serious change and Bubba is allergic to serious change - We saw some real bad game decisions and clock management earlier in the season and here we are after the last game of the season talking about this exact same thing after another brutal loss.  Agreed Bubba isn't going anywhere soon but we really need an adult in the house to have a talk with him - Chaves seems awol so I'm guessing it won't get done.  My frustration is that we'll see the exact same Sideline Bubba next year.  

Yep.  Bubba and the staff has done many great things, but we are chasing the greatest dynasty in the history of college football and we will NEVER have a good enough roster to compensate for the continuous game management/ clock management mistakes.  

I went back through the MSU game, someone tell me where I am wrong.  40 second play clock in college football correct?  We run the "dipsy doodle" reverse pass play on 4th and 2 at the MSU 29 with a 28-17 lead and MSU takes over with 6:36 to go. They score 6 plays and 2:03 later to make it 28-24 UND.

UND takes over with 4:33 to go.  Here is what transpires:

North Dakota 28-25 Missouri St.

North Dakota at 04:33

North Dakota at 04:33
1st and 10 at UND25	NORTH DAKOTA drive start at 04:33.
1st and 10 at UND25	Weah, Otis rush over left end for 34 yards to the MSU41, 1ST DOWN UND (Braswell,Montra).
1st and 10 at MSU41	Weah, Otis rush up middle for 4 yards to the MSU37 (Stewart,Jaylen).
2nd and 6 at MSU37	Smith, Isaiah rush over right end for 4 yards to the MSU33 (Joe,Lemondre).
3rd and 2 at MSU33	Weah, Otis rush up middle for 1 yard to the MSU32 (Manuleleua,Ferr;McDonald,Kyriq).
4th and 1 at MSU32	Vaughn, Quincy rush up middle for 5 yards to the MSU27, 1ST DOWN UND (Williams,Jalen;Goree,Devin).
1st and 10 at MSU27	Weah, Otis rush up middle for 4 yards to the MSU23 (Johnson,Eric;Ellis,Kevin).
2nd and 6 at MSU23	Timeout Missouri St., clock 01:49.
2nd and 6 at MSU23	Weah, Otis rush over right end for loss of 2 yards to the MSU25, fumble forced by Young,Von, fumble by Weah, Otis recovered by MSU Johnson,Eric at MSU24.

 

At even 35 seconds per play shouldn't the clock have been under a minute to go when Otis fumbled?

Their game winning drive took 8 plays and 1:24.  What am I missing here?

[fightingsioux4life]

10 minutes ago, Midwestern Hawk said:

Yep.  Bubba and the staff has done many great things, but we are chasing the greatest dynasty in the history of college football* and we will NEVER have a good enough roster to compensate for the continuous game management/ clock management mistakes.

 

*FCS football. And the past is not necessarily a prediction of the future. We need to make our own future. We did it once before in Division 2 and we can do it again in FCS. We just need to get everyone firing on all cylinders at the same time.

[The Sicatoka]

16 minutes ago, Midwestern Hawk said:

Yep.  Bubba and the staff has done many great things, but we are chasing the greatest dynasty in the history of college football and we will NEVER have a good enough roster to compensate for the continuous game management/ clock management mistakes.  

I went back through the MSU game, someone tell me where I am wrong.  40 second play clock in college football correct?  We run the "dipsy doodle" reverse pass play on 4th and 2 at the MSU 29 with a 28-17 lead and MSU takes over with 6:36 to go. They score 6 plays and 2:03 later to make it 28-24 UND.

UND takes over with 4:33 to go.  Here is what transpires:

North Dakota 28-25 Missouri St.

North Dakota at 04:33

North Dakota at 04:33
1st and 10 at UND25	NORTH DAKOTA drive start at 04:33.
1st and 10 at UND25	Weah, Otis rush over left end for 34 yards to the MSU41, 1ST DOWN UND (Braswell,Montra).
1st and 10 at MSU41	Weah, Otis rush up middle for 4 yards to the MSU37 (Stewart,Jaylen).
2nd and 6 at MSU37	Smith, Isaiah rush over right end for 4 yards to the MSU33 (Joe,Lemondre).
3rd and 2 at MSU33	Weah, Otis rush up middle for 1 yard to the MSU32 (Manuleleua,Ferr;McDonald,Kyriq).
4th and 1 at MSU32	Vaughn, Quincy rush up middle for 5 yards to the MSU27, 1ST DOWN UND (Williams,Jalen;Goree,Devin).
1st and 10 at MSU27	Weah, Otis rush up middle for 4 yards to the MSU23 (Johnson,Eric;Ellis,Kevin).
2nd and 6 at MSU23	Timeout Missouri St., clock 01:49.
2nd and 6 at MSU23	Weah, Otis rush over right end for loss of 2 yards to the MSU25, fumble forced by Young,Von, fumble by Weah, Otis recovered by MSU Johnson,Eric at MSU24.

 

At even 35 seconds per play shouldn't the clock have been under a minute to go when Otis fumbled?

I see six full plays, the MSU TO, and the fumble play. Clock isn't running on change of possession to start drive. I could see about three minutes and a few seconds. That looks right. 

What did MoiSt have for TO after the TO at 1:49?

 

Credit: They ran the ball -> no clock stoppages for incomplete passes. 

[Midwestern Hawk]

18 minutes ago, The Sicatoka said:

I see six full plays, the MSU TO, and the fumble play. Clock isn't running on change of possession to start drive. I could see about three minutes and a few seconds. That looks right. 

What did MoiSt have for TO after the TO at 1:49?

 

Credit: They ran the ball -> no clock stoppages for incomplete passes. 

Agree on the NO PASSES comment. 

That was Mo ST first TO.  On the 6 plays we ran pre-TO, we averaged 27 seconds per play(6 plays 2:44 elapsed = 164 seconds = 27.3.  Couldn't we, in theory, have run off 39 seconds per play(and that does NOT take into account the actual time consumed by the play)?  If so, the after 6 plays, there is only 39 seconds left in the game instead of 1:49 or MoSt has to burn all its timeouts.  Is my math correct? 

[iramurphy]

9 hours ago, SiouxBoys said:

The kind of speed that forces a defense to keep a safety over the top. Clive was the last one we had. Need another one.

I think if we watch film we will see that as well as 2 deep safeties. How fast?  I think many would be surprised at what it takes to be an effective receiver but it starts with an oline and QB that give receivers and the QB time and the QB who gets through his reads and delivers the ball. The guys we have are a very good group of receivers. That in my opinion, isn’t  the missing piece.  Having said that, I would take a couple of 4.4 forty guys who can run routes, block and catch the ball every time. 

[shep]

Maybe we need a Transfer thread.

Sam Robertson is the latest. That's 2 CB's in a week right?

[Midwestern Hawk]

1 hour ago, The Sicatoka said:

I see six full plays, the MSU TO, and the fumble play. Clock isn't running on change of possession to start drive. I could see about three minutes and a few seconds. That looks right. 

What did MoiSt have for TO after the TO at 1:49?

 

Credit: They ran the ball -> no clock stoppages for incomplete passes. 

Contrast out clock management at Mo St to the USD clock management in Vermillion:

North Dakota 13-20 South Dakota

South Dakota at 05:52

South Dakota at 05:52
1st and 10 at USD25	SOUTH DAKOTA drive start at 05:52.
1st and 10 at USD25	Clock 05:52, Theis,Travis rush for 22 yards to the USD47, 1ST DOWN USD (Holm, Evan).
1st and 10 at USD47	Clock 05:12, Theis,Travis rush for 1 yard to the USD48 (Pierre, Chandon).
2nd and 9 at USD48	Clock 04:23, Theis,Travis rush for 10 yards to the UND42, 1ST DOWN USD (Larson, Noah;Holm, Evan).
1st and 10 at UND42	Clock 03:43, Theis,Travis rush for 8 yards to the UND34 (Galvin, Hayden;Holm, Evan).
2nd and 2 at UND34	Clock 03:00, Theis,Travis rush for 1 yard to the UND33 (Krzanowski, Dev;McNaboe, Ben).
3rd and 1 at UND33	Clock 02:11, Theis,Travis rush for 2 yards to the UND31, 1ST DOWN USD (Larson, Noah;McNaboe, Ben).
1st and 10 at UND31	TEAM rush for loss of 2 yards to the UND33.
2nd and 12 at UND33	TEAM rush for loss of 3 yards to the UND36, PENALTY UND unsportsmanlike conduct 15 yards to the UND21, 1ST DOWN USD.
1st and 10 at UND21	1st and 10.
1st and 10 at UND21	TEAM rush for loss of 2 yards to the UND23.
2nd and 12 at UND23	TEAM rush for loss of 2 yards to the UND25.
3rd and 14 at UND25	End of game, clock 00:00.

10 plays consumed 5:52.    Nielsen would have run out the clock at Mo St and gone home with a win.   Before swtich ing to victory formation and taking a knee, USD consumed 4 minutes in 5 plays.

 

Football Clock Management 101

[shep]

Damn...some of you are going over this and the Tommy Int as though it's the Zapruder Film

Please "Like" if you understand that reference. 

I'm dating myself here.

I have to...no sane woman will. 

[AJS]

Looking back at the O-Line against SDSU, is this correct? 

1st half - Lavell, Christian, Ghadaksaz, Kilty, Ventrelli

2nd half - Kuntz, Lavell, Ghadaksaz, Kilty, Ventrelli

[UND1983]

That is correct. We had to put a true freshman in at LT on the most crucial drive of the season.  

[Siouxperman8]

5 minutes ago, UND1983 said:

That is correct. We had to put a true freshman in at LT on the most crucial drive of the season.  

and how many of them were starters last spring?  I'm guessing here but one maybe?

[geaux_sioux]

24 minutes ago, AJS said:

Looking back at the O-Line against SDSU, is this correct? 

1st half - Lavell, Christian, Ghadaksaz, Kilty, Ventrelli

2nd half - Kuntz, Lavell, Ghadaksaz, Kilty, Ventrelli

Ventrelli and Kilty are rock solid. I would guess Kilty slides to LT next season. We need to find 2 guards and a center. 

[Siouxperman8]

3 minutes ago, geaux_sioux said:

Ventrelli and Kilty are rock solid. I would guess Kilty slides to LT next season. We need to find 2 guards and a center. 

Is Lotysz being counted on for one of those spots?  I believe he was the projected starter at center before getting hurt

[geaux_sioux]

2 minutes ago, Siouxperman8 said:

Is Lotysz being counted on for one of those spots?  I believe he was the projected starter at center before getting hurt

The way he’s been getting injured I wouldn’t count on him for anything until his body holds up.

[AJS]

5 minutes ago, geaux_sioux said:

Ventrelli and Kilty are rock solid. I would guess Kilty slides to LT next season. We need to find 2 guards and a center. 

Kuntz was getting a lot of praise in fall camp. Although it's not his natural position, do you leave Kilty inside if as a Sophomore Kuntz is ready to step into that LT roll?

[geaux_sioux]

9 minutes ago, AJS said:

Kuntz was getting a lot of praise in fall camp. Although it's not his natural position, do you leave Kilty inside if as a Sophomore Kuntz is ready to step into that LT roll?

If anyone is ready to be a solid LT you play them there.

[rochsioux]

5 hours ago, Midwestern Hawk said:

Agree on the NO PASSES comment. 

That was Mo ST first TO.  On the 6 plays we ran pre-TO, we averaged 27 seconds per play(6 plays 2:44 elapsed = 164 seconds = 27.3.  Couldn't we, in theory, have run off 39 seconds per play(and that does NOT take into account the actual time consumed by the play)?  If so, the after 6 plays, there is only 39 seconds left in the game instead of 1:49 or MoSt has to burn all its timeouts.  Is my math correct? 

There were 6 plays run but the clock only ran after 5 of them.  A timeout was used after play number 6.  
Let’s say each play takes 5 seconds and you snap the ball on average with 3 seconds on the play clock.  The six plays should then take (5+37)*5+5=215 seconds or 3:35 
If we started with 4:33 on the clock it should now be at 0:58. 

[SIOUXFAN97]

17 hours ago, nodak651 said:

interesting...head never moves...one arm out...did he alligator arm it?

[geaux_sioux]

Just now, SIOUXFAN97 said:

interesting...head never moves...one arm out...did he alligator arm it?

HE WAS PAID OFF I TELL YOU!! A double agent sent by Fargo to keep us out of the playoffs.

[SIOUXFAN97]

7 hours ago, The Sicatoka said:

We're all guilty of seeing what we want to see; some call it "two movies on one screen". 

Is there a consulting group out there that could objectively review a team after a season and give their report card about how well the team did "administrative" game day things; for example, time out management, clock management, play calling (as in getting in quickly, not specific calls), personnel substitutions, etc. 

 

gfhockey and the good ole boys group at judys