2020 Dumpster Fire (Enter at your own risk)

[jdub27]

6 minutes ago, UND1983 said:

Because we made policy and destroyed people's lives temporarily based on their "findings".  Their findings are constantly changing and they are not held accountable accountable for anything they have found that didn't turn out to mean anything, but was used as a reason to take an action.  

If we hadn't done anything drastic then whatever, another piece of the puzzle.  But their "findings", however political they may be, have created fear porn for everyone, which led to a sheep mentality where if one group shuts down now we have to because we might look bad.  

The word LIABILITY comes to mind lately.  

Again, they are doing their job. It's how science works, continue to update what you know with new information to make the models more accurate. This was a novel virus, minimal things were known about it which is why the models had such huge range. Fauci openly admitted to Congress he doesn't know everything about the virus and he won't make predictions, just lay out what the models show. Blame the media for grabbing onto the biggest numbers and pushing that agenda. Blame those making policy decisions for not understanding the numbers and/or risk. Fauci has zero agenda or narrative to push. He presents the facts as he sees them, which is not policy making. That is up to the elected officials. He's been doing it for almost 40 years under Democrat (2x) and Republican (4x) presidents. He didn't decide to get political at the age of 79 just for fun. 

[dynato]

1 minute ago, UND1983 said:

Because we made policy and destroyed people's lives temporarily based on their "findings".  Their findings are constantly changing and they are not held accountable accountable for anything they have found that didn't turn out to mean anything, but was used as a reason to take an action.  

If we hadn't done anything drastic then whatever, another piece of the puzzle.  But their "findings", however political they may be, have created fear porn for everyone, which led to a sheep mentality where if one group shuts down now we have to because we might look bad.  

The word LIABILITY comes to mind lately.  

6 minutes ago, UND1983 said:

It has nothing to do with that and you know it.  It has to do with us, as a country, then reacting to their ever changing "findings" by burning it down to a low we haven't seen in 75+ years.  The real ramifications of our overreaction won't be seen for a few years.  

Media is creating the divide and blurring the facts. They created the mindset that this is both doomsday and a hoax. They need to make money and have nothing else to report on just as some of the public has nothing else to do besides blindly consume what the media says. If you don't like it, stop blindly consuming the media. Most people are in the middle and can agree on one thing: this sucks.

As you said, this will temporarily set people back, the only thing permanent are hose who are dead. Humans are resilient, they will adapt to change, they will find another job if they have to, they will survive. Those who are dead will stay dead.

Liability is 100% on politicians, governors, and the federal government for the policies they implement. They make decisions based on the best known available data at the time. They have tens of billions of dollars in resources afforded to them for situations like this. One thing is clear to me, pre-defined actions taken sooner would have exponentially decreased the impact of this on our country. Again, if you do not like the actions taken by your governor, lobby them or vote them out of office.  They are the ones making the changes you despise, not the media, not scientists. 
https://www.governor.nd.gov/contact
https://mn.gov/governor/contact/

[UND1983]

15 minutes ago, dynato said:

Media is creating the divide and blurring the facts. They created the mindset that this is both doomsday and a hoax. They need to make money and have nothing else to report on just as some of the public has nothing else to do besides blindly consume what the media says. If you don't like it, stop blindly consuming the media. Most people are in the middle and can agree on one thing: this sucks.

As you said, this will temporarily set people back, the only thing permanent are hose who are dead. Humans are resilient, they will adapt to change, they will find another job if they have to, they will survive. Those who are dead will stay dead.

Liability is 100% on politicians, governors, and the federal government for the policies they implement. They make decisions based on the best known available data at the time. They have tens of billions of dollars in resources afforded to them for situations like this. One thing is clear to me, pre-defined actions taken sooner would have exponentially decreased the impact of this on our country. Again, if you do not like the actions taken by your governor, lobby them or vote them out of office.  They are the ones making the changes you despise, not the media, not scientists. 
https://www.governor.nd.gov/contact
https://mn.gov/governor/contact/

You dont feel they are making these decisions partly based on pressure from their constituents,  who are gobbling up fear porn from the media?

I do agree 100% about the media and their actions.

[Siouxphan27]

36 minutes ago, jdub27 said:

Again, they are doing their job. It's how science works, continue to update what you know with new information to make the models more accurate. This was a novel virus, minimal things were known about it which is why the models had such huge range. Fauci openly admitted to Congress he doesn't know everything about the virus and he won't make predictions, just lay out what the models show. Blame the media for grabbing onto the biggest numbers and pushing that agenda. Blame those making policy decisions for not understanding the numbers and/or risk. Fauci has zero agenda or narrative to push. He presents the facts as he sees them, which is not policy making. That is up to the elected officials. He's been doing it for almost 40 years under Democrat (2x) and Republican (4x) presidents. He didn't decide to get political at the age of 79 just for fun. 

I don’t get how people are quick to blame the policy makers when the information they’re using is admittedly incomplete and sometimes completely in accurate 

[dynato]

2 minutes ago, UND1983 said:

You dont feel they are making these decisions partly based on pressure from their constituents,  who are gobbling up fear porn from the media?

I believe that the media does not influence actual policy and real change. The 2016 election with the loud minority should have overwhelmingly made that clear. You should know by now not to listen to the loud minority. 

I believe that politicians and governors are making decisions based on the best information they have available to them at the time. The "best information" of two months ago is no longer the best information of today. Just as what the media reports on is not the best information, just as constituents do not have the best information. I'd like to assume governors are being continually fed the best information possible, allowing them to change their minds and make better decisions. 

If you want to say they are implementing policy with their constituents in mind, you absolutely need to understand that the older generations are their largest voting base. The older generations are at the highest risk. The congressmen and governors themselves are also fairly old on average. So to me it makes sense that most governors lean towards protecting themselves and their largest voting base by shutting down. 

 

[yzerman19]

48 minutes ago, keikla said:

I understand the point you're trying to make, but holy does this come across as callous and insensitive. 33% of just my department have lost an immediate family member to covid in the past 2 months. We've lost several coworkers.  

I do think the percentage changes a bit if you select just the counties in the NYC metro area, since the rest of the state has been largely unaffected. I don't have time to look it up right now, though.

Again, I'm not really arguing your overall point, just suggesting to maybe find a different way to say it.

I appreciate you and understand that you are living in the hurricane.  
 

I am extremely frustrated with a response that isn’t commensurate with the threat.  For example, in CA my son is more likely to die in a car accident driving to the rink than of covid, but the politicos have shut it all down.  
 

I’ve become more callous when countered with emotion.  
 

hang tough-Kiekla- I wouldn’t discount it to your face or any care givers in NYC.

[dynato]

3 minutes ago, Siouxphan27 said:

I don’t get how people are quick to blame the policy makers when the information they’re using is admittedly incomplete and sometimes completely in accurate 

The best information available at the time can be incomplete and completely inaccurate. But it is still the best information they have to go off of at the time. They need something to base decisions off of. Also the government has a wide threshold for acceptance of error which doesn't help. The point is you cannot blame the scientists or the policy makers unless they acted unfaithfully without due diligence. Which is quite tough to prove.

[UND1983]

4 minutes ago, keikla said:

I get that.  I've actually been pleasantly surprised at the process NYS is using to open up...objective measures, by region.  Even though my region is still under lock and key, it corresponds with the threat level. 

I wonder if it is easier to judge opening up when you've been decimated as opposed to worrying that the threat and peak is still looming.

How do you know the peak is still looming in other places?

[Siouxphan27]

44 minutes ago, dynato said:

The best information available at the time can be incomplete and completely inaccurate. But it is still the best information they have to go off of at the time. They need something to base decisions off of. Also the government has a wide threshold for acceptance of error which doesn't help. The point is you cannot blame the scientists or the policy makers unless they acted unfaithfully without due diligence. Which is quite tough to prove.

I agree. People blaming trump for the early response or Governor Cuomo for the early response are just using hindsight and wanting to point blame for political reasons

[yzerman19]

I’m terrified of the economic devastation now much more than the disease.  How will this ever be paid for...there will be copious amounts of personal debt written off, taxes will have to go up to fund the government spending, many low income workers will now be jobless for years, many people will lose their homes (owned and rented).  I fear that socialism will fully take hold now and the independent, self-reliant nature that created America will vanish beneath a title wave of need.  This lockdown will be remembered as the tipping point that crippled American exceptionalism...welcome to the global society of mediocrity.

 

[tnt]

7 minutes ago, yzerman19 said:

I’m terrified of the economic devastation now much more than the disease.  How will this ever be paid for...there will be copious amounts of personal debt written off, taxes will have to go up to fund the government spending, many low income workers will now be jobless for years, many people will lose their homes (owned and rented).  I fear that socialism will fully take hold now and the independent, self-reliant nature that created America will vanish beneath a title wave of need.  This lockdown will be remembered as the tipping point that crippled American exceptionalism...welcome to the global society of mediocrity.

 

...and government will see how they can control their constituents and will be more emboldened to control their everyday rights. I.e. travel limits to protect the environment and early lockdowns on any new virus.  The ones that will be screaming the most that the government has to save them are the states that wouldn’t open back up.  Just a hypothetical, but what would our reaction have been if this was a biological attack by terrorists designed to ruin America’s way of life?  Would we have united like we did after 9/11, and been resolved to get those responsible, or would we be cowering in our basements and letting them change our way of life from here to eternity and just resigning ourselves to a “new normal”? I know how I would feel about keeping the freedoms we have for which others fought and died.

[yzerman19]

People can be very happy with very little if they have personal freedoms, a job they don’t despise, and a place of their own.  Stay off the social media and Reality TV.  
 

a few beers at the lake over the weekend, maybe a camping trip with the family or the boys every so often.  Local sporting event and a pizza.  Dreaming of a new snow mobile or truck.  A couple steaks on the grill.

the elites mock this life, but the freedom and satisfaction of a simple life well-lived has sustained us for generations.

[SIOUXFAN97]

6 minutes ago, yzerman19 said:

People can be very happy with very little if they have personal freedoms, a job they don’t despise, and a place of their own.  Stay off the social media and Reality TV.  
 

a few beers at the lake over the weekend, maybe a camping trip with the family or the boys every so often.  Local sporting event and a pizza.  Dreaming of a new snow mobile or truck.  A couple steaks on the grill.

the elites mock this life, but the freedom and satisfaction of a simple life well-lived has sustained us for generations.

well said.

[dynato]

27 minutes ago, yzerman19 said:

I’m terrified of the economic devastation now much more than the disease.  How will this ever be paid for...there will be copious amounts of personal debt written off, taxes will have to go up to fund the government spending, many low income workers will now be jobless for years, many people will lose their homes (owned and rented).  I fear that socialism will fully take hold now and the independent, self-reliant nature that created America will vanish beneath a title wave of need.  This lockdown will be remembered as the tipping point that crippled American exceptionalism...welcome to the global society of mediocrity.

 

USA is currently pulling away slowly from China and moving to India for our cheap labor force. A lot of opportunities there I think, like one of the mods said, deny payment to china of our bonds once we no longer need to rely on them. Economic devastation will be paid for the same as how the economic devastation of war is paid for. Likely by tax reform. 

I do not think this will be a foothold for socialism. Big businesses will weather the storm, take on record low debt and sell their high interest debt to the government/rid themselves of junk bonds. Small businesses that were on the verge of failure and can't take on extra loans will be bought out by these big businesses. Moving closer to monopolies, but it represents opportunity for them to have explosive growth and creation of many more jobs once this is over.

I hope this does highlight the deficiencies in our government with regards to preparation and planning. I hope it also highlights how fragile america's bottom line is with the plethora of low income american people.  

 

[SIOUXFAN97]

3 minutes ago, dynato said:

USA is currently pulling away slowly from China and moving to India for our cheap labor force. A lot of opportunities there I think, like one of the mods said, deny payment to china of our bonds once we no longer need to rely on them. Economic devastation will be paid for the same as how the economic devastation of war is paid for. Likely by tax reform. 

I do not think this will be a foothold for socialism. Big businesses will weather the storm, take on record low debt and sell their high interest debt to the government/rid themselves of junk bonds. Small businesses that were on the verge of failure and can't take on extra loans will be bought out by these big businesses. Moving closer to monopolies, but it represents opportunity for them to have explosive growth and creation of many more jobs once this is over.

I hope this does highlight the deficiencies in our LOCAL government with regards to preparation and planning. I hope it also highlights how fragile america's bottom line is with the plethora of low income american people.  

 

garcetti anyone.....you can run on wet sand in la but not on dry sand...la should be open tonight?  but nope...two more months

[dynato]

1 hour ago, Siouxphan27 said:

I agree. People blaming trump for the early response or Governor Cuomo for the early response are just using hindsight and wanting to point blame for political reasons

I am not blaming any of them, but I will direct blame towards government if people try to act like media and scientists are the ones in charge of this country. Political affiliations aside, there will be people going down on the wrong side of history for their action/inaction and the wrong messages/policy they spread. 

Compared to what America has been through, I think we can all agree that a multi-billion dollar mobilization and prevention effort as an early response would have lead to a drastically lower widespread impact on America (both economically and health wise). This in combination with a plan in place with guidelines on what constitutes as necessary for such an effort for each locality so places that do not need to shut down don't unless necessary. (This is a complex measure to predict, but we will have a baseline pandemic to go off of in the future at least).

[SIOUXFAN97]

4 minutes ago, dynato said:

I am not blaming any of them, but I will direct blame towards government if people try to act like media and scientists are the ones in charge of this country. Political affiliations aside, there will be people going down on the wrong side of history for their action/inaction and the wrong messages/policy they spread. 

Compared to what America has been through, I think we can all agree that a multi-billion dollar mobilization and prevention effort as an early response would have lead to a drastically lower widespread impact on America (both economically and health wise). This in combination with a plan in place with guidelines on what constitutes as necessary for such an effort for each locality so places that do not need to shut down don't unless necessary. (This is a complex measure to predict, but we will have a baseline pandemic to go off of in the future at least).

the past is the past....why isn't LA open right now...at 1pm central time...answer the question...

[dynato]

17 minutes ago, SIOUXFAN97 said:

garcetti anyone.....you can run on wet sand in la but not on dry sand...la should be open tonight?  but nope...two more months

Just now, SIOUXFAN97 said:

the past is the past....why isn't LA open right now...at 1pm central time...answer the question...

Federal supersedes state, which supersedes local government. Local policy does not guide federal policy. Failure at the federal level trickles down to the local levels. Failure at the local level rarely trickles up to the federal level. For pandemics and natural disasters however, the precedent is that states governors have authority over their individual state, with guidance and support from the federal government.

Mind you, I am not advocating either way for shut-downs or opening up, I am indifferent at this point. LA isn't open because just like the guidelines for shutting down the guidelines for opening up are not clear. The health and economic impact of opening up LA is still very much unclear. Does the government have great confidence in the transmission and mortality rates enough to make such a decision that has proven impossible to slow down once it takes hold? Is the economic impact risk of them becoming the next NYC outweighing the definitive economic impact of a longer lock down? The government has the resources to gauge the likely hood and answer that, not me. 

 

[SIOUXFAN97]

8 minutes ago, dynato said:

Federal supersedes state, which supersedes local government. Local policy does not guide federal policy. Failure at the federal level trickles down to the local levels. Failure at the local level rarely trickles up to the federal level. For pandemics and natural disasters however, the precedent is that states governors have authority over their individual state, with guidance and support from the federal government.

Mind you, I am not advocating either way for shut-downs or opening up, I am indifferent at this point. LA isn't open because just like the guidelines for shutting down the guidelines for opening up are not clear. The health and economic impact of opening up LA is still very much unclear. Does the government have great confidence in the transmission and mortality rates enough to make such a decision that has proven impossible to slow down once it takes hold? Is the economic impact risk of them becoming the next NYC outweighing the definitive economic impact of a longer lock down? The government has the resources to gauge the likely hood and answer that, not me. 

 

lot of words for ....not answering the question.

[dynato]

Just now, SIOUXFAN97 said:

lot of words for ....not answering the question.

I have already answered my thoughts on lock-downs and opening up several times, people ignore it cause it's just not controversial.

Once it was clear that local hospital systems were not going to fail, localities should have transitioned to opening up.

[yzerman19]

There is political motivation and posturing. The most important thing for Newsome and LA Mayor is to come out of this having virtue signaled and unscathed to their supporters.  Their supporters being the elites and the serfs who serve them.  
 

it is interesting, the homerun money in CA has skewed a lot of perspective.  Free for all in tech and VC money, Lottery winning on houses.  Many people got rich not from their salaries and saving, but from stock and real estate.  When tons of money comes that way, people lose perspective.  

[Oxbow6]

ND numbers today....0, 88 and 2861.

[bison73]

7 hours ago, Redneksioux said:

I don’t know how deaths were reported then either but to say that covid deaths are being counted differently from flu deaths is another misnomer, yet this misinformation continues to be spread to push an agenda.

 

7 hours ago, Redneksioux said:

https://canadafreepress.com/article/the-cdc-confesses-to-lying-about-covid-19-death-numbers

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/birx-says-government-is-classifying-all-deaths-of-patients-with-coronavirus-as-covid-19-deaths-regardless-of-cause


Watch this---
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlwFUkSpBKU
 

 

 

 

 

[Redneksioux]

Condolences to the LM employee in his thirties that passed from covid. 

[MrEdway]

2 hours ago, tnt said:

 Just a hypothetical, but what would our reaction have been if this was a biological attack by terrorists designed to ruin America’s way of life?  

Not so sure that's a hypothetical question.