Kennedy vs. Engelstad Foundation: GF herald feature

[UND-FB-FAN]

2 minutes ago, snova4 said:

 Do you think NDSU treats the football team equally as the tennis team? The sports that most other universities emphasize aren't the ones driving the revenue bus at UND. 

"... particularly for the sports that most other universities emphasize."

Tennis never falls into that category. 

[UND-FB-FAN]

UND hockey and the REA are in a tremendous position because they have an actual revenue stream; that's great.  Many major DI programs (including hockey, football, and basketball) around the country, despite their size, are often turning net losses. It's the reality of collegiate athletics. Therefore, the overall goal here is not to make UND football and basketball revenue sources; rather, it is just to enhance them with some of the fortunate revenue generated via the REA.

[geaux_sioux]

1 hour ago, snova4 said:

 Do you think NDSU treats the football team equally as the tennis team? The sports that most other universities emphasize aren't the ones driving the revenue bus at UND. 

They don’t trash their others sports though. That’s the difference. Everyone in Fargo pulls in the same direction. 

[Frozen4sioux]

1 hour ago, UND-FB-FAN said:

UND hockey and the REA are in a tremendous position because they have an actual revenue stream; that's great.  Many major DI programs (including hockey, football, and basketball) around the country, despite their size, are often turning net losses. It's the reality of collegiate athletics. Therefore, the overall goal here is not to make UND football and basketball revenue sources; rather, it is just to enhance them with some of the fortunate revenue generated via the REA.

Literally the definition of welfare. Lets not try to make entities stand for themselves but rather just provide to them from others.

They ARE being enhanced NOW with some of the fortunate revenue generated by REA. When is it ever going to be enough? 50%.... 75%... 100%... 

Although now it appears that the fight IS all about the logo. And the hypothtical windfall of merch revenue that the center court logo will generate.

Really KEM should compromise on this part as the logo is already "on the court" as it sits on the plan now... it really isnt that big of a deal, just would want the North Dakota wordmarks on the ends.

 

[fightingsioux4life]

1 minute ago, Frozen4sioux said:

Literally the definition of welfare. Lets not try to make entities stand for themselves but rather just provide to them from others.

So your Darwinian model of an athletic department is to have programs compete against each other for survival until only one is left? This is the most asinine thing said on this issue so far.

Most programs lose money. So they are subsidized by the revenue sports. UND has Men's Hockey. NDSU has Football. Duke has Men's Basketball.

If you are against welfare, then you are against intercollegiate athletics as a whole.

[Frozen4sioux]

2 minutes ago, geaux_sioux said:

They don’t trash their others sports though. That’s the difference. Everyone in Fargo pulls in the same direction. 

This is a fantasy.

I've lived the opposite. Others were treated like !@#$ on toast by the FB program and that was BEFORE they went on the D1jv run. Can't imagine the genuflecting that is required now. 

[UND1983]

3 minutes ago, Frozen4sioux said:

This is a fantasy.

I've lived the opposite. Others were treated like !@#$ on toast by the FB program and that was BEFORE they went on the D1jv run. Can't imagine the genuflecting that is required now. 

Sounds like somebody was punked back in the day and hasn't gotten over it.  

At least your issues are coming out.  You basically hate every other sports on campus but teh hockey posers.

[jdub27]

18 minutes ago, Frozen4sioux said:

Literally the definition of welfare. Lets not try to make entities stand for themselves but rather just provide to them from others.

They ARE being enhanced NOW with some of the fortunate revenue generated by REA. When is it ever going to be enough? 50%.... 75%... 100%... 

Although now it appears that the fight IS all about the logo. And the hypothtical windfall of merch revenue that the center court logo will generate.

Really KEM should compromise on this part as the logo is already "on the court" as it sits on the plan now... it really isnt that big of a deal, just would want the North Dakota wordmarks on the ends.

Why is any football ticket revenue going to the REA? I can see MBB/WBB/VB due to the BESC, but feel free to explain the football part. The revenue split It is also part of the ongoing negotiations, so the fight isn't all about the logo, it's about the bigger picture that the REA is supposed to operate in the best manner to support UND athletics (note that the term used and it isn't men's ice hockey) and the President is saying they aren't. Tough to argue with him given the information that is currently available.

How many years did UND hockey "stand for themselves" before getting a $110 million gift? 

[neoflex]

33 minutes ago, Frozen4sioux said:

Although now it appears that the fight IS all about the logo. And the hypothtical windfall of merch revenue that the center court logo will generate.

I have no doubt it's about the logo too. I'm not sure as to what type of sales the Fighting Hawk logo-name has generated to date, but  the new branding may help, but it's going to take a monumental effort to get it back to where it was. Speaking to a GM at Scheels in Fargo last winter, he said their sales are down about 75% from 6 years ago, (and not from the mad dash of sales when the Sioux name was announced to be retired). They used to have a 200 sq.ft for UND merchandise, but it's now down to about 40 sq. ft. Sales are sales, so even Scheels doesn't sell all the Fighting Hawk merchandise, but I'm guessing it's a fairly accurate assessment of the current revenue stream as a whole.

So back to the original argument - Yes we do need the KEM and their donation(s). If not just to help fund the other non revenue generating sports, but to help support the educational process as well. We win - there's money  and everyone is winning, when we don't...not as much. 

[Teeder11]

36 minutes ago, Frozen4sioux said:

Literally the definition of welfare. Lets not try to make entities stand for themselves but rather just provide to them from others.

They ARE being enhanced NOW with some of the fortunate revenue generated by REA. When is it ever going to be enough? 50%.... 75%... 100%... 

Although now it appears that the fight IS all about the logo. And the hypothtical windfall of merch revenue that the center court logo will generate.

Really KEM should compromise on this part as the logo is already "on the court" as it sits on the plan now... it really isnt that big of a deal, just would want the North Dakota wordmarks on the ends.

 

This silo approach to funding athletics you speak of is a weird way to run a ship.  I think the disconnect is that most of us on here see the Athletic Department as a single entity made up of individual programs -- some big and some small -- very few lucrative and most hemorrhaging cash. What many of us don't see and what we don't believe in is an everyone-for-themselves approach. That kind of mindset may be awesome for the lucrative program(s) but does nothing to move the needle forward for the Athletic Department as a whole, and by extension, the University. This is especially true when your power program is a niche program followed mostly by a vast minority of folks in nine or 10 states on the U.S. northern tier. It's like Johns Hopkins lacrosse rolling off umpteen national championships in a row -- if a tree falls in the forest and no one's there to ....   Oh hell, you get the point.

 EDIT: My point is that many of us who tend to argue your points aren't satisfied with JUST the hockey team doing well. We want the hockey team and as many other programs as possible to do well, especially in sports that will garner more press nationally, such as football and basketball.  Look at how Loyola Chicago blew up in this year's Big Dance. 

[Siouxperman8]

4 hours ago, BarnWinterSportsEngelstad said:

Probably ten without the s every year. 

6,000 seats more than the Winter Sports Center (later named Engelstad Arena) that was on 2nd Ave N.

6,000 and x $45 seat x 19 home games (that is less the 2 playoff) plus concessions is $5M.

What these additional 6,000 fans add in purchases to the community? More CC donations? etc.

Isn't this the point of Kennedy's contention with REA?

Per reporting: REA took in $4.6M in hockey ticket revenue and after splitting and subtracting costs gave about $800k back to UND.  

That's a really nice number but considering REA took 52% of fb ticket revenue ($400k? ) the impact to UNDs bottom line starts to shrink

 

[northernraider]

4 hours ago, petey23 said:

 

Just made me go into the Ric Flair rabbit hole. Thanks 

[jdub27]

50 minutes ago, Siouxperman8 said:

Isn't this the point of Kennedy's contention with REA?

Per reporting: REA took in $4.6M in hockey ticket revenue and after splitting and subtracting costs gave about $800k back to UND.  

Here is 2017's information:

Quote

In fiscal year 2017, gross tickets sales (all sports) were $4.6 million of which RE Arena, Inc. recognized revenue of $2.4 million with a net due to UND $2.2 million. Gross ticket sales for the next athletic season year are recorded in deferred revenue at gross by RE Arena, Inc. for a total of $2.7 million.

RE Arena, Inc. recognized net sponsorship (advertising) revenue of $769,000 and the net due UND in sponsorship (advertising) income of $432,000.

RE Arena, Inc. recognizes box office revenue on a cost reimbursement basis, for ticket facility fees, credit card fees and payment plan fees and expenses. The total cost that the UND Athletic Department reimbursed RE Arena, Inc. for managing and administering the box office on their behalf was $247,000.

In addition, RE Arena, Inc. allocated $750,000 of net income to the UND Athletic Department for the year ended May 31, 2017.

RE Arena, Inc. expensed $1.1 million to UND for utilities, maintenance staff, phone service and other expenses.

At the end of the fiscal year RE Arena, Inc. owes UND $813,000 for the annual operating agreement and monthly services. UND owes RE Arena, Inc. $55,000 for box office income for the same period.

Note that this is an oversimplification
The REA got $2.4 million in revenue, another $769,000 in advertising revenue, $247,000 for box office revenue and charged UND another $1.1 million to UND for other expenses, so basically earned $4.5 million in revenue related to UND (not including concessions/merchandise shop/etc). 

UND got $2.2 million in ticket revenue, $432,000 in advertising revenue and $750,000 in "extra revenue".  Net effect, UND saw $3.4 million in revenues before paying the REA $1.3 million for a net of around $2 million.

I'm having a hard time with the $1.1 million charged to UND for "utilities, maintenance staff, phone service and other expenses" without knowing all the details behind it. Seems like that should be covered in the "rent" payment. That is separate from the REA getting a cut of football ticket revenue. Even if these numbers are close, I can see why UND is asking for the contract to be looked at. 

This also paints a bit of a different picture than what KEM made it look like when she said UND should sign the usage agreement and sit back and collect their check. UND is doing plenty of heavy lifting.

[gfhockey]

At scheels the North Dakota only stuff is about $15 buck higher then for the same shirt with hawk logo on it

 

i gladly pay an extra $15!

[UNDBIZ]

10 minutes ago, gfhockey said:

At scheels the North Dakota only stuff is about $15 buck higher then for the same shirt with hawk logo on it

 

i gladly pay an extra $15!

Well what's $15 to someone like you anyway?

[Teeder11]

12 minutes ago, gfhockey said:

At scheels the North Dakota only stuff is about $15 buck higher then for the same shirt with hawk logo on it

 

i gladly pay an extra $15!

As long as the royalties come back to UND— then WGAF?

[darell1976]

1 hour ago, neoflex said:

I have no doubt it's about the logo too. I'm not sure as to what type of sales the Fighting Hawk logo-name has generated to date, but  the new branding may help, but it's going to take a monumental effort to get it back to where it was. Speaking to a GM at Scheels in Fargo last winter, he said their sales are down about 75% from 6 years ago, (and not from the mad dash of sales when the Sioux name was announced to be retired). They used to have a 200 sq.ft for UND merchandise, but it's now down to about 40 sq. ft. Sales are sales, so even Scheels doesn't sell all the Fighting Hawk merchandise, but I'm guessing it's a fairly accurate assessment of the current revenue stream as a whole.

So back to the original argument - Yes we do need the KEM and their donation(s). If not just to help fund the other non revenue generating sports, but to help support the educational process as well. We win - there's money  and everyone is winning, when we don't...not as much. 

Seeing it’s in Fargo, home of NDSU, I am sure the demand is limited and they need the space to sell other things. The logo has been out for 2 years (3 for the nickname), how much of the bland North Dakota gear was selling from 2012-15 (or 18)at the Fargo Scheels....not much would be my guess. It’s still early for Hawk sales and it will increase more and more with branding. Of course the FSF people will say no one is buying it and time to scrap the whole thing. You know typical propaganda.

[fightingsioux4life]

2 hours ago, Frozen4sioux said:

They ARE being enhanced NOW with some of the fortunate revenue generated by REA. When is it ever going to be enough? 50%.... 75%... 100%...

To answer your question, 50-50 should do the trick. Subtract expenses from revenues and split what is left over 50-50. And get the FB revenue out of the equation; what does the FB program and the Alerus Center have to do with REA and BESC?

[petey23]

2 hours ago, neoflex said:

I have no doubt it's about the logo too. I'm not sure as to what type of sales the Fighting Hawk logo-name has generated to date, but  the new branding may help, but it's going to take a monumental effort to get it back to where it was. Speaking to a GM at Scheels in Fargo last winter, he said their sales are down about 75% from 6 years ago, (and not from the mad dash of sales when the Sioux name was announced to be retired). They used to have a 200 sq.ft for UND merchandise, but it's now down to about 40 sq. ft. Sales are sales, so even Scheels doesn't sell all the Fighting Hawk merchandise, but I'm guessing it's a fairly accurate assessment of the current revenue stream as a whole.

So back to the original argument - Yes we do need the KEM and their donation(s). If not just to help fund the other non revenue generating sports, but to help support the educational process as well. We win - there's money  and everyone is winning, when we don't...not as much. 

And you have identified the problem we will continue to have. Scheel's is in the business to make money. They buy merchandise with the Fighting Hawks logo on it and it ends up on the clearance rack. When it is time to order again, they will order less UND merchandise and also ask for designs that do not have the logo on it.(i.e., just text like "University of North Dakota" or  "Fighting Hawks" or sport specific like "North Dakota Basketball" or "Fighting Hawks Football")

I am not saying get rid of the name, that would be foolish at this point...but we seriously need to hit the reset button on the logo.

Prior to NDSU going D1 and refreshing their logo, UND apparel and NDSU apparel used to run neck and neck in the Fargo Scheels store with UND even outselling NDSU some years. 2 things, this was prior to NDSU going D1 and this is directly from the person who used to be the collegiate license buyer for Scheels corporate.

[neoflex]

42 minutes ago, darell1976 said:

Seeing it’s in Fargo, home of NDSU, I am sure the demand is limited and they need the space to sell other things. The logo has been out for 2 years (3 for the nickname), how much of the bland North Dakota gear was selling from 2012-15 (or 18)at the Fargo Scheels....not much would be my guess. It’s still early for Hawk sales and it will increase more and more with branding. Of course the FSF people will say no one is buying it and time to scrap the whole thing. You know typical propaganda.

Considering there are thousands of UND graduates in Fargo, that's a healthy contingency (a lot of the MD's, RN's, lawyers, etc...are UND graduates). Prior to the name change, Scheels had a healthy amount of sales. Certainly not comparable to today's NDSU, but prior to the run of championships for the football team - believe it or not, the UND sales accounted for about 30% of collegiate merchandise, with NDSU at 40% and the remaining from other local and national schools (again, this was just from a conversation with the clothing manager). 

For UND's financial benefit I hope the new logo does generate a healthier stream of merchandising

income. I personally don't new like the logo, but I support the University of North Dakota.

[darell1976]

1 minute ago, neoflex said:

Considering there are thousands of UND graduates in Fargo, that's a healthy contingency (a lot of the MD's, RN's, lawyers, etc...are UND graduates). Prior to the name change, Scheels had a healthy amount of sales. Certainly not comparable to today's NDSU, but prior to the run of championships for the football team - believe it or not, the UND sales accounted for about 30% of collegiate merchandise, with NDSU at 40% and the remaining from other local and national schools (again, this was just from a conversation with the clothing manager). 

For UND's financial benefit I hope the new logo does generate a healthier stream of merchandising

income. I personally don't new like the logo, but I support the University of North Dakota.

Sales in retail stores are hurting that’s why you see stores closing everywhere. Online sales is booming and why buy from a Scheels when you can buy online for cheap. Target in Fargo sells Fighting Hawk shirts and caps and I’m sure it’s cheaper there than Scheels. The name and logo are still new and most UND fans in fargo are UND hockey only fans. They are UND hockey and Bison everything else fans. So of course the Hawk name/logo isn’t going to do well with them. 

[UND1981]

3 minutes ago, petey23 said:

...but we seriously need to hit the reset button on the logo.

I initially thought 10 years, but maybe 5 years is realistic on changing the logo to something that will sell more merchandise.  This logo will not bring in enough $$$$ for UND.

[petey23]

2 minutes ago, darell1976 said:

Sales in retail stores are hurting that’s why you see stores closing everywhere. Online sales is booming and why buy from a Scheels when you can buy online for cheap. Target in Fargo sells Fighting Hawk shirts and caps and I’m sure it’s cheaper there than Scheels. The name and logo are still new and most UND fans in fargo are UND hockey only fans. They are UND hockey and Bison everything else fans. So of course the Hawk name/logo isn’t going to do well with them. 

Key word. Cheaper instead of less expensive.

You are seriously understating the UND fans in Fargo. There are NDSU fans and grads who are UND hockey fans. There are people who didn't attend either school who are fans of both programs when they are winning. The alumni base for UND is probably very close in size to the NDSU alumni base in Fargo and yeah you might see a UND grad at an NDSU tailgate or game, or a UND alum business owner catering to the NDSU student but sometimes that is the cost of doing business. There are very few UND grads in Fargo who are actual Bison sports fans....and those that are should be disowned.

[MafiaMan]

On 5/15/2018 at 11:06 PM, Frozen4sioux said:

As far as the court goes. No its a battle that could have been "conseeded" with little to no effect on the "segment "majority" of the REA customers.

 

On 5/16/2018 at 8:00 AM, UNDBIZ said:

Oh my.

@MafiaMan

[UND-FB-FAN]

4 hours ago, Frozen4sioux said:

Literally the definition of welfare. Lets not try to make entities stand for themselves but rather just provide to them from others.

They ARE being enhanced NOW with some of the fortunate revenue generated by REA. When is it ever going to be enough? 50%.... 75%... 100%... 

Although now it appears that the fight IS all about the logo. And the hypothtical windfall of merch revenue that the center court logo will generate.

Really KEM should compromise on this part as the logo is already "on the court" as it sits on the plan now... it really isnt that big of a deal, just would want the North Dakota wordmarks on the ends.

 

 Why do you want to isolate all the programs as separate entities and not just embrace the entire UND athletic department?  It's too bad there are "fans" of UND that clearly associate with only a single program and not several.  

So what if UND hockey were to help out other programs; it ultimately would move the entire athletic department forward. It's amazing how UND hockey fans subconsciously represent the very mindset that inherently exists with the REA agreement:  protect UND hockey at all costs, even if it comes at the expense of other UND programs.