Conference Realignments - Take 2

[ND-fan]

I have question what's the big advantage of playing FBS football for somebody like UND other than to say your in top classification of NCAA football. The fact is your in classification where your in the bottom ranks of that division in football. The most you can achieve is to win your conference and then play in some small bowl leading up to Christmas or New Year. This seems to me that playing in the FCS playoff scenario gives you chance to play on TV for three dates and you get national television coverage if you reach the championship. In the FBS division there is no chance teams like UND play or even considered for national playoff or even a major bowl. The economics of it is that we can't bring enough people to fill a major bowl stadium and its all about money in the top ranks of FBS. Its that way for all the major sports in division I and to me its like Harlem Globe trotters and Washington Generals where mid major programs are very similar to them we just play them so they can build up their records and fill their home dates but we have very little chance to win anything. I guess I don't get thrill of saying were competing at division I level unless we have equal chance of winning. I here all you complain when we play small NAIA schools and wonder why were playing them and that scenario is same for us reversed when we play with top tier FBS schools. The fact is when I look at revenue table for division I sports I think it should be cut off on that list somewhere between the top 75 to 50 schools in the nation. Und is on the list at 100 + and so is rest of the Summit conference schools above UND. We all would like to think we can compete with these other schools in sports but fact is for the major sports like Football, basketball, baseball, and volleyball this is not the case but for lesser sports or should I say less attended and given les support by major media yes the field can be wider. I also didn't mention Hockey either because this is such unique sport in that it is sport on to itself because schools competing in this sport range from very top ranks to bottom and because number schools are small in number there is large enough talent pool to keep these teams competitive. Also it like professional hockey it is extremely popular in different localities and does draw national attention more so than most sports but not as high as football and basketball.  But to topic division I I just see where over long period of time so many schools that were part of Division II in the past have moved up because of division creep in division II and the restrictions they put on original division II schools. This was allowed because TV wanted to add programing and it had to be division I sports so we had this increase in division I schools. Now we have same thing going on with Division I where top schools have separated themselves from other in FBS national championship in football. I wouldn't be surprised if this doesn't happen in some other sports because they want to command more of television money for these sports. This brings us back to where UND is and I think schools like us need to have competitive teams that have chance at winning national championship at what ever classification. This will put people in the stands and also promote for local media to cover it and if it so happens you can reach national championship it will also give you some national attention. I am sure  I will here all the rebuttals and why I am way off base hear but I think this factual analysis and I don't think college sports can right themselves until they can restructure themselves accordingly because to many of are having financial difficulties right now. 

[Nodak78]

39 minutes ago, ND-fan said:

I have question what's the big advantage of playing FBS football for somebody like UND other than to say your in top classification of NCAA football. The fact is your in classification where your in the bottom ranks of that division in football. The most you can achieve is to win your conference and then play in some small bowl leading up to Christmas or New Year. This seems to me that playing in the FCS playoff scenario gives you chance to play on TV for three dates and you get national television coverage if you reach the championship. In the FBS division there is no chance teams like UND play or even considered for national playoff or even a major bowl. The economics of it is that we can't bring enough people to fill a major bowl stadium and its all about money in the top ranks of FBS. Its that way for all the major sports in division I and to me its like Harlem Globe trotters and Washington Generals where mid major programs are very similar to them we just play them so they can build up their records and fill their home dates but we have very little chance to win anything. I guess I don't get thrill of saying were competing at division I level unless we have equal chance of winning. I here all you complain when we play small NAIA schools and wonder why were playing them and that scenario is same for us reversed when we play with top tier FBS schools. The fact is when I look at revenue table for division I sports I think it should be cut off on that list somewhere between the top 75 to 50 schools in the nation. Und is on the list at 100 + and so is rest of the Summit conference schools above UND. We all would like to think we can compete with these other schools in sports but fact is for the major sports like Football, basketball, baseball, and volleyball this is not the case but for lesser sports or should I say less attended and given les support by major media yes the field can be wider. I also didn't mention Hockey either because this is such unique sport in that it is sport on to itself because schools competing in this sport range from very top ranks to bottom and because number schools are small in number there is large enough talent pool to keep these teams competitive. Also it like professional hockey it is extremely popular in different localities and does draw national attention more so than most sports but not as high as football and basketball.  But to topic division I I just see where over long period of time so many schools that were part of Division II in the past have moved up because of division creep in division II and the restrictions they put on original division II schools. This was allowed because TV wanted to add programing and it had to be division I sports so we had this increase in division I schools. Now we have same thing going on with Division I where top schools have separated themselves from other in FBS national championship in football. I wouldn't be surprised if this doesn't happen in some other sports because they want to command more of television money for these sports. This brings us back to where UND is and I think schools like us need to have competitive teams that have chance at winning national championship at what ever classification. This will put people in the stands and also promote for local media to cover it and if it so happens you can reach national championship it will also give you some national attention. I am sure  I will here all the rebuttals and why I am way off base hear but I think this factual analysis and I don't think college sports can right themselves until they can restructure themselves accordingly because to many of are having financial difficulties right now. 

It would much easier to read if you broke it up into paragraphs.

[nodak651]

10 minutes ago, Nodak78 said:

It would much easier to read if you broke it up into paragraphs.

Didn't read because of this.

[SIOUXFAN97]

ND-fan why not go D2 or heck D3 and just dominate?

we could play mount union every damn year on espn3

[SiouxVolley]

An FBS conference needs at least 9 FBS teams to qualify for CFP payments later.  That is preferable millions would be dispersed.   Eight can get by, but nine is preferable if one drop out.

NDSU fans can be giant blowhards, but no one wants them because their facilities and population are like Idaho"s.

The proposed league would have cost effective travel partners.  Weber St and Denver would be the worst, as would require a flight between, but those flights are low cost.

A G5  playoff could happen with added $.   Needs more G5 conference first.

[SiouxVolley]

1 hour ago, SIOUXFAN97 said:

ND-fan why not go D2 or heck D3 and just dominate?

we could play mount union every damn year on espn3

 Doesn't pay anything to the school except travel expenses.

Have to demote hockey to DIII.

[Milo]

19 hours ago, darell1976 said:

19 hours ago, darell1976 said:

Cowboys finished 4-8 just in case he pumps his chest about playing a tough MWC team, kind of like how they played a tough DII Ferris State team while being DI.

I’ve heard people say that was the best UND football team of all time.  Their super bowl win! That was the same year UND lost in Fargo 34-9. If memory serves me well UND didn’t make the playoffs and NDSU won another of their many National Championships. 

Quote

UND could not muster a first down in the opening 30 minutes as the squad netted zero yards on 12 rushes as two sacks negated any postive yardage for the visitors. UND also went 0-for-5 on third downs in the first half, while NDSU converted six of nine.

https://fightinghawks.com/news/2015/9/19/210356298.aspx

That must have sent a message to Wyoming.  NDSUs subsequent victories at Kansas, KSU, Colorado, Iowa State and Iowa were helpful in reminding Wyoming fans their win over NDSU was impressive.  It was a big win for the Cowboys. They brag about it to this day. 

PS.  Ferris State is a respected D1 hockey school. Sioux Falls College is not. 

[Milo]

9 hours ago, nodak651 said:

Didn't read because of this.

ND Fan agrees with my position.   His initial question is why FBS at all. He then asks the money question suggesting strongly FBS is a pipe dream, hockey is an asset,  concluding UND is better suited to FCS and is an Augie to the FBS.

There is zero chance of a UND FBS in our foreseeable futures. A Summit non-scholarship league featuring UND, WIU, Saint Cloud, Duluth, Augie, Omaha and a couple wild cards is more likely in the long run but improbable over the near term.

Its been demonstrated there is no money. The contortions SV has gone through show us there are no probable conference affiliations. Coaching and recruiting  haven’t  yet fully adapted to FCS as we see in wins/loss column  There is no buzz at all outside this thread for UND in FBS.  There is nothing to indicate this is not a fantasy  

When and if an FBS invite comes to a Dakota school they will have to demonstrate the money is there.  They will need adequate facilities.  They will need to demonstrate a commanding regional media presence.  They have to have demonstrated they are competitive by winning on the field.  They will need impressive attendance with butts in seats.  They will have to be needed.  Other sports will have to be in a similar position unless you expect a football only affiliation.  There has to be ease of travel for visiting teams meaning direct flights.  They will have to have a national brand.  

Im looking at the MVFC and wondering which schools are building that type of program.  Without the burden of hockey NDSU is in better financial shape. They need work on facilities.  Their media presence is growing and they have a powerful regional following.  Attendance is adequate.  They are winning in some of the biggest FBS football venues in the country.  There are rumblings from  sports writers mentioning the Bison as possible MWC or MAC additions.  Their Olympic sports have a lot of bright spots and they are not dropping any.  Hector field is in Fargo.  8 national championships, a couple Gameday visits and the huge FBS win streak as seen on national TV has helped build the national brand.

 

[Milo]

 All of the schools face a basket of problems in moving to FBS. A new conference of our peers doesn’t change  any of that.  It’s all about growth.  

The mighty land grants were the first to hit critical mass.  They wanted the NCC to move up in 1976 along with the Big Sky and eventually made the first Division 1 moves a decade ago. To do it they started their own all sports conference. As other schools begin to catch up they got in. As transitions expired, for better or worse, all received other conference invites.

Things are consolidating once again around a central NCC core.  Now Augie has grown to the point of wanting back in.  I see Duluth sitting there with a big city and a big football team. If it weren’t for hockey they might be on deck too.  Eventually there will be enough growth to accommodate larger stadiums and bigger budgets.  If football is still in the mix building for the FBS is a no brainer.  SDSU is case in point.  As the Fabulous Fargo Dome and Alerus Center reach the ends of their economic life talk of new stadiums will bring talk of FBS.

Until then only the most exceptional and successful schools have any realistic chance at an FBS invite. Right now Fargo seems closer to that reality. An FBS invite would see a new stadium there for sure. If they were to announce an FBS invite I would take it as a sure sign they had a new stadium in their hip pocket. The high schools are big enough for the FFD. 

SV brings a lot of information that’s interesting and sometimes intriguing.  I’ve been following it too.  There are a lot of possibilities but the simpler is the more likely.  Interest in college athletics is not that great. As trigger events occur stronger more successful programs may join together in all different ways. Summit non scholarship football can demonstrate a need in the FCS and the Summit could provide a home. 

[darell1976]

5 hours ago, Milo said:

That must have sent a message to Wyoming.  NDSUs subsequent victories at Kansas, KSU, Colorado, Iowa State and Iowa were helpful in reminding Wyoming fans their win over NDSU was impressive.  It was a big win for the Cowboys. They brag about it to this day. 

 PS.  Ferris State is a respected D1 hockey school. Sioux Falls College is not. 

First you never played Colorado it was Colorado State. Second you lost to Wyoming in 2008 where the Bison went 6-5 so no one at Wyoming is talking about a meaningless game 11 years ago. And third yes we lost to the U of Sioux Falls, just like SDSU lost to DIII Wisconsin-Lacrosse, but go ahead and talk them up while bashing us. 

[Bison Dan]

1 hour ago, darell1976 said:

First you never played Colorado it was Colorado State. Second you lost to Wyoming in 2008 where the Bison went 6-5 so no one at Wyoming is talking about a meaningless game 11 years ago. And third yes we lost to the U of Sioux Falls, just like SDSU lost to DIII Wisconsin-Lacrosse, but go ahead and talk them up while bashing us. 

No one has to bash you, the facts do that.   

[Yote 53]

It still is vivid in my mind that prior to this run by NDSU they were 3-8, couldn't fill up the FFD, and students had abandoned the program.  Success can be fleeting.  The question is not how support is right now in the good times and can FBS aspirations be supported under those conditions, it is can FBS aspirations still be supported in the bad times, the 3-8 times.  Even for a football program that has been as successful as NDSU my answer would have to be "no".  Once they step into the big pond they are no longer special.  They have no special recruiting advantages in FBS, in fact, they would be in the worst recruiting position of almost any FBS school.  Nothing big to play for other than a crappy bowl in Detroit in the days before Christmas.  Start losing a few games, which they would, and support starts to weaken.

I don't even know why we have these FBS discussions.  I don't see how any of these schools could step into the FBS world on their own.  Now, if they wanted to band together to move up en mass, I could see it being feasible.  But still have to remember the most we would all be playing for is a crappy, pre-Christmas bowl game.  Is that enough to make it worth it?

[SWSiouxMN]

Wait until the inevitable split to occur, then move to the 2nd tier.

I'd rather win a title than a bowl in Idaho. 

However I'd trade any national title for a deep run in March Madness (Sweet 16 or further). I'll that THAT national recognition any day. 

[darell1976]

4 hours ago, Bison Dan said:

No one has to bash you, the facts do that.   

And what facts would that be?

[VMeister]

10 hours ago, Milo said:

The mighty land grants were the first to hit critical mass.

That sounds like a phrase JBB would use.

[zonadub]

14 hours ago, Milo said:

... the Fabulous Fargo Dome ...

Don't want to go back to find it, but pretty sure there was a reference to the Dakota Big 3 a little while back too.

 

classic JBB

[SiouxVolley]

Pretty skeptical that UMKC can become the next Wichita State.

https://info.umkc.edu/unews/martin-lays-out-100-day-vision-for-athletics/

[SiouxVolley]

Looks like NKU is very upset by the Horizon League bid process that wasn’t supposed to go to a team’s home arena, but It went to IUPUI,s arena.  Maybe NKU is using this as an excuse to move to the MVC with Murray State.   PUFW be gone if that happens.

https://mobile.twitter.com/dontribunesport/status/1095422873244708865?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed|twterm^1095422873244708865&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fcsnbbs.com%2Fthread-870382.html

nKu has quickly built a formidable program

[Herd]

On 2/11/2019 at 6:39 PM, Nodak78 said:

It would much easier to read if you broke it up into paragraphs.

There’s no advantage, it’s a Sioux Volley power trip to one up NDSU, so logic be gone.

Unless you are an FBS team in an established league, you won’t be able to bring in good competition and make the situation viable.  (MWC, MAC)

Going FBS in a new league would just be more expensive football, nothing else.  Would be a disaster.

 

[SiouxVolley]

Have long maintained, FBS is more cost effective if your in a conference of similar financially capable schools like a future Great Northern.

The $1 million plus FBS payout per school which will go up in 2025, the multimillion payouts for away P5 games, and the bowl payouts.  FCS gives one nada.

EWU had to sell tickets to NDSU fans to even afford Frisco.  EWU hired Lynn Hickey because she has experience at transitioning to FBS.

https://theeasterner.org/45126/sports/ewu-board-of-trustees-focus-on-football-playoff-budget-during-meeting/

EWU would triple their current P5 guarantees if they moved up.

[Sioux>Bison]

On 2/12/2019 at 6:41 AM, darell1976 said:

First you never played Colorado it was Colorado State. Second you lost to Wyoming in 2008 where the Bison went 6-5 so no one at Wyoming is talking about a meaningless game 11 years ago. And third yes we lost to the U of Sioux Falls, just like SDSU lost to DIII Wisconsin-Lacrosse, but go ahead and talk them up while bashing us. 

Beating NDSU 11 years ago is something no one remembers in WY. I live in WY and joke all the time around the office that the real national championship was being played one weekend and no one knew what I was talking about when I mentioned NDSU. NDSU is about as nonrelevent in WY as any other FCS school like MT or MT state. This is about the biggest lie I have ever read from an NDSU troll on this forum. Even WY doesn’t have time for their bragging about JV stats.....

[southpaw]

9 hours ago, SiouxVolley said:

EWU had to sell tickets to NDSU fans to even afford Frisco.  EWU hired Lynn Hickey because she has experience at transitioning to FBS.

Just like the Big Sky hired Andrea Williams to help with the FBS transition? 

[cberkas]

Sounds like no one around Spokane or Spokane Valley cares about EWU. So, EWU is below Gonzaga and Washington State when it comes to which school matters.

[SWSiouxMN]

Anybody see what when down with UMKC basketball?  Practically the entire team transferred out. <didn't know where to put this>

[zonadub]

4 hours ago, SWSiouxMN said:

Anybody see what when down with UMKC basketball?  Practically the entire team transferred out. <didn't know where to put this>

The coach was fired

https://info.umkc.edu/unews/umkc-fires-head-basketball-coach/