Milo

All of the schools face a basket of problems in moving to FBS. A new conference of our peers doesn’t change any of that. It’s all about growth. The mighty land grants were the first to hit critical mass. They wanted the NCC to move up in 1976 along with the Big Sky and eventually made the first Division 1 moves a decade ago. To do it they started their own all sports conference. As other schools begin to catch up they got in. As transitions expired, for better or worse, all received other conference invites. Things are consolidating once again around a central NCC core. Now Augie has grown to the point of wanting back in. I see Duluth sitting there with a big city and a big football team. If it weren’t for hockey they might be on deck too. Eventually there will be enough growth to accommodate larger stadiums and bigger budgets. If football is still in the mix building for the FBS is a no brainer. SDSU is case in point. As the Fabulous Fargo Dome and Alerus Center reach the ends of their economic life talk of new stadiums will bring talk of FBS. Until then only the most exceptional and successful schools have any realistic chance at an FBS invite. Right now Fargo seems closer to that reality. An FBS invite would see a new stadium there for sure. If they were to announce an FBS invite I would take it as a sure sign they had a new stadium in their hip pocket. The high schools are big enough for the FFD. SV brings a lot of information that’s interesting and sometimes intriguing. I’ve been following it too. There are a lot of possibilities but the simpler is the more likely. Interest in college athletics is not that great. As trigger events occur stronger more successful programs may join together in all different ways. Summit non scholarship football can demonstrate a need in the FCS and the Summit could provide a home.

Lol. Casting dispursions, trying to cast doubt, lynch party mentality, smacks more of sore losers and child like whining. Not at all like the foundation of a strong legal case. Don’t just whine and point fingers, quit the game, stand on your principals, show your own integrity and this wouldn’t look like a festival of sore losers. If the NCAA is offended enough they will act. After all this is the home of the Hawks, not the Sioux.

ND Fan agrees with my position. His initial question is why FBS at all. He then asks the money question suggesting strongly FBS is a pipe dream, hockey is an asset, concluding UND is better suited to FCS and is an Augie to the FBS. There is zero chance of a UND FBS in our foreseeable futures. A Summit non-scholarship league featuring UND, WIU, Saint Cloud, Duluth, Augie, Omaha and a couple wild cards is more likely in the long run but improbable over the near term. Its been demonstrated there is no money. The contortions SV has gone through show us there are no probable conference affiliations. Coaching and recruiting haven’t yet fully adapted to FCS as we see in wins/loss column There is no buzz at all outside this thread for UND in FBS. There is nothing to indicate this is not a fantasy When and if an FBS invite comes to a Dakota school they will have to demonstrate the money is there. They will need adequate facilities. They will need to demonstrate a commanding regional media presence. They have to have demonstrated they are competitive by winning on the field. They will need impressive attendance with butts in seats. They will have to be needed. Other sports will have to be in a similar position unless you expect a football only affiliation. There has to be ease of travel for visiting teams meaning direct flights. They will have to have a national brand. Im looking at the MVFC and wondering which schools are building that type of program. Without the burden of hockey NDSU is in better financial shape. They need work on facilities. Their media presence is growing and they have a powerful regional following. Attendance is adequate. They are winning in some of the biggest FBS football venues in the country. There are rumblings from sports writers mentioning the Bison as possible MWC or MAC additions. Their Olympic sports have a lot of bright spots and they are not dropping any. Hector field is in Fargo. 8 national championships, a couple Gameday visits and the huge FBS win streak as seen on national TV has helped build the national brand.

I’ve heard people say that was the best UND football team of all time. Their super bowl win! That was the same year UND lost in Fargo 34-9. If memory serves me well UND didn’t make the playoffs and NDSU won another of their many National Championships. That must have sent a message to Wyoming. NDSUs subsequent victories at Kansas, KSU, Colorado, Iowa State and Iowa were helpful in reminding Wyoming fans their win over NDSU was impressive. It was a big win for the Cowboys. They brag about it to this day. PS. Ferris State is a respected D1 hockey school. Sioux Falls College is not.

Acting as judge and jury you must be a person of integrity? Certainly you want to appear inspired by higher ideals. Are you going to compromise your own principals and actually play the game next season? Last time UND felt they were at a disadvantage they quit. Make a stand. Stop your libel and do something! stand up for your principals. quit the series. you obviously feel at a disadvantage and that is certainly a precedent for quitting at UND. It would probably be better than a repeat of last time too I’m sure you dont want to sit through that again when you could stay at home and post away how unfair it all is for UND and an insult to it’s virtues For once, let the smoke clear up a little. try to focus on what’s important and do the right thing

No. Their wins were in the Big 10. A bigger deal than Wyo for sure even though it was the Gophers. The Dakota Big 3, as you call them, all beat the Gophers. The Bison beat them several times. Of course NDSUs FBS win streak is unparalleled in FCS history Their wins are impressive indeed. Those of you that agree UND is not going FBS have a good grasp of reality. They arent and they won’t. As I said it’s more likely to go non scholarship or drop the sport. As Omaha has found out the hockey and BB teams get better when football is dropped.

Lol. OK. Except the new NCHC was started after the big ten got sick of the Augies in their league. They separated themselves from the D2s. I guess they didn’t consider those endowment numbers that places UND firmly in the lower echelons with Idaho After Denver which has 711 million, 3 times UNDs size, there wasn’t one hockey school except UND. Denver has no football. None of the schools listed with endowments the size of UNDs has a full slate of D1 sports including hockey, FBS football and basketball. None of the schools are FBS. Idaho gave it run And failed. Idaho doesn’t have hockey. When it comes to football obviously “The AC” is by far the best on that list. They don’t have to fund hockey which makes any FBS invite they may receive easier to contemplate but still out of reach today. Before moving into the FCS WAC or inviting yourselves into the MAC seriously consider the OOC schedule. Who is going to come to the Alerus? How much can you pay them? Besides all the schools in the “new” conferences are FCS now. Why not just play those same schools in this division? The idea they are going to form some type of FBS conference begs the question why? After 10 years and the big win a narrow victory over lowly Wyoming a few years ago and on the wrong end of blowouts galore from all levels what are the realistic chances of success for UND in the FBS? How successful have they been to date? There aren’t enough resources and UND isn’t compelling enough now to recruit successfully and hire top notch coaches that can be successful in the FCS. None of this FBS talk makes much sense or has a realistic purpose especially considering the weakness of the UND business model. It couldn’t handle the costs of the Big Sky. A lot of schools UNDs budget size that have hockey don’t have football at all. Most of the others are in D2. Money is the reason and UND has the same costs or more because of travel. One of the MVFC schools may get an FBS invite of some kind someday but they aren’t going to change the entire landscape of college athletics to make it happen. I stand by my original claim: UND is more likely to play non scholarship football or move back to D2 than move to the FBS.

Hi siouxfan67, UND has no money for FBS football. Competitive with Indiana State maybe, Missouri State? Possibly. SIU? Maybe. But FBS? You don’t even know, and apparently don’t want to know, how much money UND has for FBS football. after the BIg Sky fiasco, analaysis of available guarantee money for OOC games and a revue of coaching salaries it would appear very little. it would be like University of North Dakota- Idaho. Neither NDSU or UND are viable FBS candidates financially. Right now NDSU is in better shape. After another 20 years of growth one or both will be there, if there is a there The way things are going marginal football programs will have a hard time surviving Successful programs will consolidate into their own leagues. When the talk turns to successful football programs NDSU gets mentioned a lot. They are a lot like Augie that way When the talk turns to moving up they get mentioned. NDSU is the big time Augie UND is the new Idaho.

Hi siouxfan 27. Yes there are 27 million claimed by UND in athletic revenues. The idea is to figure out what is being spent on each sport from that 27 million. No wonder you are having so much trouble trying to figure this out.

NDSU may or may not move, if they do it will probably be by themselves. They certainly have the pedigree for a move. Out of the 27 million UND has for athletics maybe some of you state trained accountants can break down the allocation for each sport. Someone posted hockey at 4.5 million: Men’s hockey 4.5 mllion 22.5 million remaining football basketball. Tennis track field cross country Softball volley ball soccer golf - privately funded due to lack of resources. Does a UND contribute budgeted funds for golf or is it funded by the country club? total should equal expenses dont include Women’s hockey - dropped no funding simming diving dropped no funding baseball - dropped no funding any other sports no longer supported expenses for White House visits and other honorary events Some questions that come to my mind include coaches salaries you should be at the top of the salary list for FCS if you are primed to move. What FBS opponents can realistically be expected to play in GF, The Alerus can’t generate very good guarantee money. How much does UND guarantee now? checking old Idaho schedules may help. It looks to me the money is there in about the same sense SV has “proven” the conference affiliation is there.

I agree that felony drug possession charges are more serious than a hockey fight at a bar or frozen feet, neither rise to the level of felony drug possession. A distinction should be made between felony’s and NCAA regulations. Dispersions are of course being cast. I’ll wait for the decision of the NCAA if they have further to say on the matter. Possibly, with your concerns UND should cancel next years football game at NDSU? From your point of view UND will be and has been at a disadvantage, which everyone knows requires you to cancel as you have in the past.

Any crimes committed by NDSU don’t justify or absolve from responsibility all the crimes committed by UND athletes. How does a shoplifting ring at NDSU absolve the marijuana dealing at UND or vice versa? You simply can’t account for human nature and some characters recruited by the athletic programs and bought to both communities have been better suited for a life on a prison campus not a campus of higher learning. Its no badge of honor to try and prove you are not the worst.

All this talk about FBS yet there is clearly no money UND is paying 4.5 mill for hockey. If the figures provided are correct there is about 22 million left for other sports. NDSU is spending just under 27 mill on those other sports already, One entire hockey teams annual budget is available above and beyond what UND has available after hockey gets its share.. It doesn’t matter what NDSU does or how much money they have or where they get it because complaining about that doesn’t increase the UND revenues or decrease their expenses. UND dropped one entire hockey program and several other sports just to keep afloat in D1. I guess if UND has the money to go FBS they could use it to reinstate women’s hockey and the other sports. If they could easily raise the FBS money they could have easily funded women’s hockey etc. I guess if the money were available UND would still have those other sports? i don’t know if NDSU can afford FBS but they haven’t dropped any sports and their coaching salaries are higher. It looks like they are closer than any of the Dakota schools. Also, in the improbable event of a UND FBS invite there will be questions about why they are spending all that money on football and not women’s hockey or baseball or the other dropped sports. The Big Sky already broke the budget. The Mountain West or other such expensive pipe dreams are obviously out of reach. In the spirit of commraderie along the mud werestling lines maybe the UND football pot dealers association could finance some of the burden?

Like I said I don’t believe either is true. If it is I certainly hope the drug problem up there and all the marijuana dealing is over with for the safety of the community and the health of those misguided individuals. Marijuana addiction is no laughing matter and drug dealing is an assault on the community at large. Too much coffee is bad too I guess, but that’s only the NCAAs opinion. It’s not illegal or a threat to the communities well being as drug addiction and marijuana dealing is. Did they have a cartel connection for their marijuana supply or doesn’t anybody know? I appreciate this thread. It’s important to talk about caffeine abuse. It’s also critical to talk about illegal drugs, drug dealing and the threat posed to the community at large by the UND football teams illegal activities.

I’m not an accountant. I don’t know who keeps track of NDSUs caffeine or who accounts for the UND football players marjiuna profits.

Those are interesting numbers. After hockey expenditures are taken out there is about 23 million left. That means NDSU has about 3-4 million to spend above and beyond UNDs remaining budget for football and other non hockey sports. Almost a whole hockey season advantage in funds available for sports other than hockey. No matter how you slice it NDSU has millions more disposable dollars for football and sports other than hockey.. Of course, I understand some of you feel you are on equal footing. If that’s the case NDSU has been much better at spending their money. I think it’s both. UND doesn’t have the money for an FBS move. NDSU and possibly SDSU are better positioned financially and their athletic programs are functioning at a higher level because they are better positioned financially.

I think if NDSUs success is attributed to improper supliments UNDs lack of success is caused by marijuana smoking and drug dealing. One is a byproduct of a culture of success. The other from a culture of failure. I don’t believe either is true and am confident both programs can efffectively deal with these types of problems.

How about Elizabeth Warren on the UND side of the wampum and of course tHe iconic Buffalo on the other?

Thanks for the discussion. My point is made.

Excellent! Bowling green has a smaller budget than UND. More the exception that proves the rule. UND has a flawed athletic business model and will be the Bowling Green of the upper Midwest. I’m good with that. im not even sure NDSU wants an FBS bid. What’s the point? But if an FBS bid does come it will be given to NDSU and possibly SDSU, unless of course the entire landscape of college football is changed like you have been suggesting to include UND.

Hi Yote 53. I am primarily talking about their financial juggernaut. All sports are well funded with each finding some success. They continue to grow revenue streams. The highly profitable game at Target field is the latest public example. Lucrative media deals and Team Makers are other areas of growth. Their football success is certainly out of the ordinary but NDSU has demonstrated they are the best at the business of college football

Engelstad rolled UND and the government. They got the deduct on taxes for the donation and will collects ticket revenues and rents so stiff the building cost will be recovered over the life of the financially crushing lease UND signed, further limiting financial resources. The lease is so one-sided UND struggles with it publicly Und has 27 million NDSU about the same but UND supports hockey too. After you subtract hockey expenses what is left? I am estimating about 15 million. Signs of financial problems abound: Left the BigSky because travel was too expensive dropped women’s hockey because it was too expensive Same for baseball The members out at the country club fund their kids golf teams because it’s too expensive there has been a public split with Englestad over the crushing terms of the hockey rink lease the golf course is being sold and plans for a domed football stadium are on indefinite hold There will be no FBS move for UND. A good look at what Mankato, UMD, Omaha and St Cloud did may be in order. Understanding why they have the athletic business model they do is critical. You can be certain they understand the UND model.

If the claim is average funding at UND with 27 million and hockey, one comes to the conclusion schools like NDSU & SDSU with similar budgets and no hockey are funding at a rate much above average. That is of course my point: those programs are already close to FBS spending and so are their results. UND May have the smallest D1 athletic budget in the country among schools funding hockey along with a full slate of D1 sports. Money is tight. The move out of the Big Sky was a survival move. A move to FBS will be a return to big travel and huge additional expenses in scholarships, coaches salaries etc. All of these dollars will have to be found and hoping for higher attendance won’t do it. When the mighty land grants announced their plans I think UND was correct when they said the division 1 move made no financial sense. It didn’t for UND. Mankato, Omaha, UMD and St Cloud knew this too. Without concrete solutions to these financial problems FBS is a pipe dream for UND. In fact, the move up has been a disaster for athletics at UND while St Cloud and the others have enjoyed ongoing success.

A sensible and realistic discussion of budgets appropriately proceeds any serious discussion of what form the FBS move will take. Hardly trolling. Augie is worried about the move to D1 with only 12 million. Most think they can’t afford to be successful in the MVFC. YSU is an average program with average success since NDSU joined the MVFC. The Penguins in an Augie like fashion have even been able to beat the Bison a few times in those 10 years or so. Youngstown is at about 15 mill. They are competing against 8 time FCS National Champions NDSU at 27 million. Neither school has hockey but NDSU has 12 million more to help the football program. UND has about the same 12 million in excess over YSU but has to fund hockey. With only about 15 mill for all programs other than hockey, funding will be at a mediocre FCS level.. At the same time the demands of hockey will not get any cheaper. it looks like a move to non-scholarship, dropping football all together or simply returning to the more affordable Mankato model is more likely than some far fetched FBS move requiring huge shifts in budget and conference landscape. it’s just not realistic until there is money to fund it. UND will compete in the MVFC with funding for football in the bottom half of the conference NDSU will compete with the highest funding for football as they do now. The Bison have 8 national championships since making the move UND has 1 playoff loss at home. That is a reflection of funding unless there is going to be a discussion on which school is getting the most bang for the buck. Could there be that much difference in the efficiency NDSU has shown in spending their money or are they simply enjoying the extras of a bigger budget for football? To me NDSU has far more to spend on football and dollar for dollar their skill at spending it is near the top of college football making their FBS chances more likely which is why NDSU is often mentioned in national discussions as a possible candidate for the Mountain West or MAC.

Hi Nodak 651. My figures must be a bit older than yours because you show UND and NDSU around 28 each and NDSU doesn’t have hockey. I’m not sure what hockey costs but after that’s paid for what’s left might be approaching Augies projected 12 million which is an average D2 budget and low D1 FCS budget. Mankato, Mn Duluth and St Cloud knew this. Women’s hockey was sacred too. Baseball is gone. Golf was saved by private donations. I don’t know what will happen to the UND football program but my point is there is not going to be any FBS UND I believe it’s more likely UND goes non scholarship or drops it completely. Otherwise budget wise, after hockey is paid for, UND is near, but not at, the bottom of the expenditures budget in the MVFC with some left over for the other sports.