Some Thoughts on UND's FB Program

[iramurphy]

3 hours ago, Bison Dan said:

Didn't RT coach for the Bombers?

Toronto. Went with Murphy to Cal State Fullerton. Left there to join former S Dak coach Joe Salem with the Gophers. Then to Toronto as an assistant before taking the UND job. 

[Sioux>Bison]

UND Athletics is dying in ND. The green and gold is all you see in stores across the state. UND leadership, alumni and fans need to be worried that the school is turning into the second tier university in the state. The logo doesn’t help either….

[iramurphy]

It seems there are recurrent frustrations regarding UND fund raising, marketing, communication etc. it doesn’t matter if we can attend events/buy tix, donate an extra $25/yr or $25,000,000 supporters and donors at all levels are important and should feel appreciated  

The Champions Club has used game day gatherings at FB, gatherings at away athletic events and the summer golf outings  to raise funds and connect with Alumni and supporters. They also help with hockey, football, and other sports specific gatherings-reunions. They along with the Alumni office are involved with the annual Athletic Hall of Fame gathering. They work closely with the AD and the Alumni Office.  Frankly I’m not sure whose umbrella oversees or manages the funds.  

I believe the Alumni Assn has used our destination athletic events including playoffs,  the Alumni publications both online and mailings. They use UND sponsored travel, and multiple Alumni gatherings around the country often hosted by UND alumni. The also have an annual UND Mn Twins game and an annual UND Mn Wild game. 
 

Students who have received scholarships have made phone calls or sent thank you notes. 
 

I have always wondered if our Athletic Dept and Champions Club efforts have been curtailed in deference to our Alumni Foundation but I don’t know. I’ve sensed that at times. 
 

I would suggest those who have supported/donated who feel they are not made aware of either opportunities to get more involved or are missing gatherings, contact Val Sannes, Tim Belmore or Bill Chaves and share your concerns or thoughts.  
 

 

[UND-FB-FAN]

On 3/31/2023 at 4:19 PM, iramurphy said:

My sense is there is an overwhelming fear of losing control of funds and how they might be distributed. 

Very true, at least personally that is the case. Overall direction of UND athletics with its current leadership structure is a concern. What are the expectations and priorities for UND athletics and UND football with the current leadership? Furthermore, personality type matters when it comes to person-to-person interactions. 

[UND-FB-FAN]

On 3/31/2023 at 3:22 PM, UND Fan said:

I was one of the first ss.com members – joining almost 21 years ago.  I won’t be on the site much going forward but will give some thoughts regarding UND football on a few topics first.  I will try not to make this too long and I have no interest in debating my thoughts with anyone.

Recruiting

I have followed our recruiting efforts for many years and was the guy doing the Wiki updates for the last 10 years or so until turning the job over to Hardcore Hawk (who is doing a good job) last year.  During that time frame, I followed thousands of potential recruits during the recruiting process.  This included kids who attended our camps, prospects we offered or were offered by other conference schools, prospects listed in recruiting websites (247 Sports, etc.), kids whose dads played for us, etc.  I have followed these prospects during the recruiting process via their social media as well as other teams’ fan websites.

Our recruiting classes of the last 15 years or so have not been great.  If you look at the limited number of:  signees we get that other top teams wanted, players contributing as true freshmen, players making all-conference teams, UND players in the NFL (or even getting good looks), etc.  We are getting lots of kids without any, or very few, FCS offers.  These are good, hard-working kids with some talent but turn out to be average-to-very good FCS players.  This needs to change - we need more high-end FSC level recruits before we can expect to be truly competitive year in and year out.

There has been a lot of talk about UND’s location (geography and weather) with many saying that it doesn’t have any negative effect on recruiting.  Those who think that location isn’t an issue are very much mistaken!  Most kids want to play somewhere that their parents, grandparents and/or girlfriends can attend most games.  Although it is improving, the number of talented prospects from ND and NW Minnesota is limited.  When you are recruiting kids from Nebraska, Kansas, Iowa, Illinois, etc., there are so many other FCS schools much closer than we are – including all the Dakota teams.  The two SUs are getting most of the kids they really want.  It’s not just NDSU we have to worry about now, SDSU has been winning just as many battles as NDSU (geography is helping them with some kids).  I would like to see us recruit the Winnipeg market (heck, all of Canada) harder.

Facilities are improving but are not there yet.  If you had ever seen the offices and locker room under Memorial, they were worse than you can imagine.  It was surprising any talented kids chose UND back then.  In a couple of years, we should have facilities equal to (maybe better) than the other Dakota schools.  That will help a great deal but there is still the distance issue.

I will talk about NDSU a little later but, as the Fargo/West Fargo metro area continues to prosper and grow, the number of talented FB players in this market will continue to grow.  We need to get a decent share of those kids.  If SU lands the lion’s share, it will be easier for their dominance over UND to continue.

Bubba    

Bubba and I are pretty good friends but I truly don’t have a great handle on his ability to lead us to the point where we consistently challenge for conference and national championships.  I certainly have disagreed with some of his decisions at critical times in important games over the last 2-3 years.   However, based on our inability to land many top-notch prospects, Bubba might be doing a hell of a job!

Athletic Department Funding      

Funding remains a major issue.  At this point, we are unable to pay our coaches competitively nor are we able to provide many of the “bells & whistles” for players provided by other programs. 

The latter is one of the reasons I organized seven “Let’s Help Bubba” campaigns over the last few years.  We raised $60,000+ for first class knee braces, Guardian helmet caps, computer equipment for breaking down film, quality cold-weather jackets for outside games, etc.

I offered to run a LHB8 last fall.  I was not pleased when it did not happen.  It was not anyone in the FB program who dropped the ball.  I will leave it at that!

I won’t get into details but I have some real concerns about our athletic fund-raising efforts especially related to the Champions Club. 

It makes common sense that averaging attendance of 10,000+ will create more revenue and a better game day experience – this needs to happen soon.  We all agree that winning and a positive fan experience at the Alerus will have a positive effect on attendance.

Lastly, on the topic of money, many have stated that the Engelstads only care about hockey.  I have wanted to post this for a few years but understood it was not to be made public.  Just recently, it did become public - Kris Engelstad has written a check paying for all FB players' summer school tuition for many years.  That is not a small check as most FB players are taking classes during the summer.     

NDSU

I attended UND when the rivalry was much more intense than it is today.  I dislike the Bison as much as (probably more than) any other ss.com member.  That said, it is ludicrous to continuously put down their FB program as well as the rest of their athletic department.  Now that their womens BB team as back to being good, SU is very competitive in every sport.  That certainly can’t be said for UND.  Their expectations are to be successful and nothing else is acceptable.  They do what is necessary to remain successful!

Team Makers fundraising efforts pay for 100% of all athletic scholarships at SU every year.  The Champions Club funds less than one-half of UND scholarship needs.  Just think about what UND Athletics could do with an extra $2+ million every year.

SS.com

The constant bantering back and forth is getting real old and is one of the reasons I won’t be visiting the site much going forward.  Too often, neither party knows what they were talking about in these “infantile” discussions.  My recommendation – if iramurphy posts a comment (FB or otherwise), you can be confident that it is factual.  He has the most knowledge and experience of UND athletics (and athletics in general) of any active ss.com member.

Lastly, if you aren’t supporting UND athletics financially as best as you can through Champions Club membership or one of the other funding programs, don’t bitch about our coaching salaries, our bidding for home playoff games, etc.

 

Reviewing the above, it probably came across a bit too negative.  I think the program continues to make progress.   Hopefully, we will soon be able to seriously compete for league championships and first round playoff spots annually.   The new facilities should help a great deal!

You will see me posting once in a while but, guys – please grow up and stay away from the juvenile discussions.  Some prospective recruits (and often their parents) check out a school’s fan websites.  Anyone reading ours would not be impressed.  I fully realize that a lot of this is common on fan websites but that doesn't mean we need to follow their lead!

Agree with the majority of this.

 

In short, to get UND football better as soon as possible:

-complete state-of-the-art facilities for coaches and student-athletes ASAP to try compensate for the geography challenges

- pay coaches better; but ultimately, need more funding for football specifically

- agree with recruiting Winnipeg, but also all of Canada, better  

- lastly, Bubba is a great guy, many are friends of his, but ultimately, nice guys don’t always finish first in the race. Decision-making in critical moments and leadership of men matters in D1 college football. 

 

[UND-FB-FAN]

23 hours ago, iramurphy said:

It seems there are recurrent frustrations regarding UND fund raising, marketing, communication etc. it doesn’t matter if we can attend events/buy tix, donate an extra $25/yr or $25,000,000 supporters and donors at all levels are important and should feel appreciated  

The Champions Club has used game day gatherings at FB, gatherings at away athletic events and the summer golf outings  to raise funds and connect with Alumni and supporters. They also help with hockey, football, and other sports specific gatherings-reunions. They along with the Alumni office are involved with the annual Athletic Hall of Fame gathering. They work closely with the AD and the Alumni Office.  Frankly I’m not sure whose umbrella oversees or manages the funds.  

I believe the Alumni Assn has used our destination athletic events including playoffs,  the Alumni publications both online and mailings. They use UND sponsored travel, and multiple Alumni gatherings around the country often hosted by UND alumni. The also have an annual UND Mn Twins game and an annual UND Mn Wild game. 
 

Students who have received scholarships have made phone calls or sent thank you notes. 
 

I have always wondered if our Athletic Dept and Champions Club efforts have been curtailed in deference to our Alumni Foundation but I don’t know. I’ve sensed that at times. 
 

I would suggest those who have supported/donated who feel they are not made aware of either opportunities to get more involved or are missing gatherings, contact Val Sannes, Tim Belmore or Bill Chaves and share your concerns or thoughts.  
 

 

I agree with the last paragraph. Reach out and actuate. 

But, ultimately, the current UND efforts you outlined above aren’t enough on their own, as all of UND’s peer institutions - namely NDSU as well as SDSU - are doing the exact same functions as UND, and then some. Difference being those institutions don’t need to fund DI hockey … 

[CMSioux]

On 4/1/2023 at 4:20 PM, iramurphy said:

It seems there are recurrent frustrations regarding UND fund raising, marketing, communication etc. it doesn’t matter if we can attend events/buy tix, donate an extra $25/yr or $25,000,000 supporters and donors at all levels are important and should feel appreciated  

The Champions Club has used game day gatherings at FB, gatherings at away athletic events and the summer golf outings  to raise funds and connect with Alumni and supporters. They also help with hockey, football, and other sports specific gatherings-reunions. They along with the Alumni office are involved with the annual Athletic Hall of Fame gathering. They work closely with the AD and the Alumni Office.  Frankly I’m not sure whose umbrella oversees or manages the funds.  

I believe the Alumni Assn has used our destination athletic events including playoffs,  the Alumni publications both online and mailings. They use UND sponsored travel, and multiple Alumni gatherings around the country often hosted by UND alumni. The also have an annual UND Mn Twins game and an annual UND Mn Wild game. 
 

Students who have received scholarships have made phone calls or sent thank you notes. 
 

I have always wondered if our Athletic Dept and Champions Club efforts have been curtailed in deference to our Alumni Foundation but I don’t know. I’ve sensed that at times. 
 

I would suggest those who have supported/donated who feel they are not made aware of either opportunities to get more involved or are missing gatherings, contact Val Sannes, Tim Belmore or Bill Chaves and share your concerns or thoughts.  
 

 

They use UND sponsored travel, and multiple Alumni gatherings around the country often hosted by UND alumni. - Thought: I would guess the average age on these trips is in the late 70s (but then again that's where the money is). 

The also have an annual UND Mn Twins game and an annual UND Mn Wild game. Thought: I went twice, was not engaged at either by anyone from UND, and yes I tried to be very approachable. Did not seem worth the effort. 

As far as the Champions Club I dropped my membership a few years ago. After being a member for several years the CC could not find me in their system, it was so frustrating, never got a call or a note about reupping. So I just let it go. Was planning to reup this year at the pre-game event in Fargo before the SU game, the info said it went until 2:00 I believe, I showed up at 1:30 and the place was cleared out.  I walked around and not one person engaged with me. Once again I rethought the value of the Champions Club. They did provide a very good experience at the Summit Basketball Tournament. Just seems like they just don't quite have it figured out like the school to the south. I do plan to join again in the fall. 

[iramurphy]

1 hour ago, CMSioux said:

They use UND sponsored travel, and multiple Alumni gatherings around the country often hosted by UND alumni. - Thought: I would guess the average age on these trips is in the late 70s (but then again that's where the money is). 

The also have an annual UND Mn Twins game and an annual UND Mn Wild game. Thought: I went twice, was not engaged at either by anyone from UND, and yes I tried to be very approachable. Did not seem worth the effort. 

As far as the Champions Club I dropped my membership a few years ago. After being a member for several years the CC could not find me in their system, it was so frustrating, never got a call or a note about reupping. So I just let it go. Was planning to reup this year at the pre-game event in Fargo before the SU game, the info said it went until 2:00 I believe, I showed up at 1:30 and the place was cleared out.  I walked around and not one person engaged with me. Once again I rethought the value of the Champions Club. They did provide a very good experience at the Summit Basketball Tournament. Just seems like they just don't quite have it figured out like the school to the south. I do plan to join again in the fall. 

I have never done a UND trip but I would guess travelers are either retired or close to retirement ages. 
I went to the pregame function before last summers Twins game. Deanna Zink didn’t seem to get around to chat with many. My wife and I were sitting by ourselves waiting for friends to join us. Jeff Dodson and his wife introduced themselves. They were very engaging. ( I can see why he was able to recruit some outstanding baseball players to UND when he coached).  He also introduced me to the new track coaches. 
I started the DL Siouxper Swing over 20 yrs ago with help from Pat Kenney and Rob Bollinger. Last summer when I signed in I asked Val Sannes and the C Club staff if they knew how it got started. They had no idea. 
Earl Strinden was still head of the Alumni Assn when we started and he always knew and mentioned those who started it. Earl also worked the room and seemed to know almost everyone by name. 
Times have changed.  Unfortunately, your experience isn’t different than some others and needs to be addressed. I know the C Club and Alumni staff folks work hard and it’s sometimes a thankless job. 
I would think when you renew your Champions Club membership this year it would help to share your experience and frustrations. Our contributions however big or small are important to UND athletics. 

[ND-fan]

I don't know in outs of what UND does in contact but what has been mentioned above is important to keeping the support UND has now but i was referring to was new ways of contact of people who may never come to UND game but do follow the teams on tv or other means of communication like radio or in the press. By this they should have people at large state functions and have booths their just out communicating with the public and listening to what common people have to say and say asking them to join various things to support the athletic program. Examples would be state tournaments for football, basketball, volleyball, or even music events and even farther would be big trade shows to have booth with people that can engage and talk to people about what's happening have sign up for a free give away of tickets to UND sports. Second, they should have Commnication with the public schools setting up visits for schools or few going out with either just coaches or teams to get UND out in the communities.  I don't know all the rules and so forth, but Athletic department needs to sell itself to the public. I also got to believe there're ways to do this also on social media. This is going to take extra people and administration following the progress of this sort of endeavor, but you won't see immediate progress but should start to see some improvement over several year period. Then they will need to get in contact with North Dakota people in other states and this will require alot of research and networking to get in contact with these people. I think i have one way of contacting the older generation in winter what we call snowbirds they have picnics to get together i believe that could be place to get in contact with that generation of people. The bottom line here is UND needs to invest way more in fund raising and communications with the public it's going to take more people to do this job and it also has to coordinate with each of sports to promote united approach in achieving support financially and participation from the community. I may be all wrong here but if not i believe we are going to slip to second tier program.

[SiouxFan100]

Oh what a hundred million bucks could do to a program.

[Nodak61]

11 hours ago, ND-fan said:

Second, they should have Commnication with the public schools setting up visits for schools or few going out with either just coaches or teams to get UND out in the communities.  I also got to believe there're ways to do this also on social media. This is going to take extra people and administration following the progress of this sort of endeavor, but you won't see immediate progress but should start to see some improvement over several year period. 

As an alum and local school administrator, I'll let you know that there are school visits set up with the UND Campus.   They do reach out and many admins and school counselors set them up.   We have one scheduled next week with our Jr's and Sr's.  

The FB coaches stop by almost every school in the state during the course of the year to "check in" and talk to alumni and coaches about players.  Haven't seen any basketball coaches in my years of being an administrator.  

 

[JohnboyND7]

On 3/31/2023 at 5:03 PM, CMSioux said:

Champions Club management is the elephant in the room.

I wonder if the difference between Champions Club and Teammakers is that UND fans sorta got accustomed to Engelstad taking care of things while Teammakers have had to be more proactive.

[jdub27]

21 minutes ago, JohnboyND7 said:

I wonder if the difference between Champions Club and Teammakers is that UND fans sorta got accustomed to Engelstad taking care of things while Teammakers have had to be more proactive.

I think you're underestimating the amount bandwagon fans that wanted to part of the "it" thing and were willing to shell out money to do so. Even if it was on the secondary market. Know more than a few people who made some good change during peak ticket demand.
Would be interesting to see how much required donations for the Fargodome have changed over the last 15 years. Guessing that's going to be a real big part of your difference.

Edit:
Team Makers raised $1.75 million in 2007/08 and $2.1 million in 2008/09.
That number was $6 million in 2021/22.
When you have a winning product, you can keep raising the price. Until you can't anymore. Ties out to DB comments about the market being pretty closed to being tapped out.
 

[andtheHomeoftheSIOUX!!]

11 minutes ago, jdub27 said:

I think you're underestimating the amount bandwagon fans that wanted to part of the "it" thing and were willing to shell out money to do so. Even if it was on the secondary market. Know more than a few people who made some good change during peak ticket demand.
Would be interesting to see how much required donations for the Fargodome have changed over the last 15 years. Guessing that's going to be a real big part of your difference.

Edit:
Team Makers raised $1.75 million in 2007/08 and $2.1 million in 2008/09.
That number was $6 million in 2021/22.
When you have a winning product, you can keep raising the price. Until you can't anymore. Ties out to DB comments about the market being pretty closed to being tapped out.
 

Do you know how much Champions Club raised during those same time periods?  I would be curious to see those numbers.

[UND1983]

The TM fees they charge are 100% unsustainable at this level.  Good for them to max it out and get their bag but when it costs 2K total for three seats that is...yah.  

[DL Sioux]

21 minutes ago, jdub27 said:

bandwagon fans that wanted to part of the "it" thing

I have often wondered how many current NDSU fans were NDSU fans 20 years ago.  

[JohnboyND7]

42 minutes ago, UND1983 said:

The TM fees they charge are 100% unsustainable at this level.  Good for them to max it out and get their bag but when it costs 2K total for three seats that is...yah.  

I think thats very debatable. I don't think there is a right or wrong answer there. To me, it seems wild. Yet they continue to get people to pay.

[jdub27]

11 minutes ago, JohnboyND7 said:

I think thats very debatable. I don't think there is a right or wrong answer there. To me, it seems wild. Yet they continue to get people to pay.

Season tickets aren't sold out anymore nor is there a waiting list, so probably safe to say they found the top.
Bigger question would be what happens if/when the team performance slips.

I think a bigger issue, that maybe they can resolve with demand down a little, is getting the younger crowd back. They priced them out for a while as they had plenty of people willing to pay higher prices, but likely have a chance to bring some back with where things have been the last couple years.

[Irish]

On 4/1/2023 at 4:19 PM, Sioux>Bison said:

UND Athletics is dying in ND. The green and gold is all you see in stores across the state. UND leadership, alumni and fans need to be worried that the school is turning into the second tier university in the state. The logo doesn’t help either….

This should be a big concern to all of us.  It used to be that every small town had a contingent of fans of both schools and there was a wonderful rivalry.  Because of short sighted decisions by administration we are late to DI and are light years behind the Bison.  We used to counter by saying "but we have a top hockey program" but now not so much.  In addition, changes here seem to move glacially and we seem to have settled for slightly above average - add the years that we had Muss for head coach or Rudy for OC and you will see what I mean.  Part of the frustration shown by posters on this site is that we get absolutely no useful info into what we are doing to correct things.  Coaches indulge in "super coachspeak" - "Shucky darn we need to get better" from Bubba and "culture culture culture" from Berry.  Our AD seems to be missing in action and is not setting any goals that we know of for our programs (I know he has laid out our plans for the Athletic Complex, but we get no info as to what we need to do for individual programs).   No NIL initiatives that I can see.  I get the message that we need to support our programs monetarily, but many of us are maxed out and have season tickets and a Coaches Club membership.  I like the "money for Bubba" idea but it looks like it maxed out at $60,000.  We need something to rally around or we will end up being second tier.  

[Hawkster]

28 minutes ago, jdub27 said:

Season tickets aren't sold out anymore nor is there a waiting list, so probably safe to say they found the top.
Bigger question would be what happens if/when the team performance slips.

I think a bigger issue, that maybe they can resolve with demand down a little, is getting the younger crowd back. They priced them out for a while as they had plenty of people willing to pay higher prices, but likely have a chance to bring some back with where things have been the last couple years.

I have a hunch that teammakers gets less money this year.   With the team laying an egg in Frisco some fans are off the bandwagon.  I also would think their fans would be tired of not moving up and would walk away.   The only games that draw well at the Fargodome are UND and SDSU.

[JohnboyND7]

5 minutes ago, Hawkster said:

I have a hunch that teammakers gets less money this year.   With the team laying an egg in Frisco some fans are off the bandwagon.  I also would think their fans would be tired of not moving up and would walk away.   The only games that draw well at the Fargodome are UND and SDSU.

Most of the games draw well. Just less well relative to the last 10-15 years. Tailgating alone is a sort of firewall that should preclude some mass withdrawal by the fans. Like UND hockey, its a social event. Go rub elbows with some folks, eat, drink, etc. But yes, I think there is some boredom taking place.

[JohnboyND7]

41 minutes ago, jdub27 said:

Season tickets aren't sold out anymore nor is there a waiting list, so probably safe to say they found the top.
Bigger question would be what happens if/when the team performance slips.

I think a bigger issue, that maybe they can resolve with demand down a little, is getting the younger crowd back. They priced them out for a while as they had plenty of people willing to pay higher prices, but likely have a chance to bring some back with where things have been the last couple years.

Yeah we (youngish folks who were students in the championship era) got sorta pushed out. Will be interesting to see how the university handles that moving forward.

[jdub27]

1 hour ago, Irish said:

Part of the frustration shown by posters on this site is that we get absolutely no useful info into what we are doing to correct things.  Coaches indulge in "super coachspeak" - "Shucky darn we need to get better" from Bubba and "culture culture culture" from Berry. 

I've heard plenty of very direct and pointed commentary from Bubba, Berry, Sather and Bernhard on areas that need improvement and what they need to do to get there at various times. But they aren't going to constantly criticize their players in public if that's what you're looking for. That would be terrible coaching.

But to your general comment, that's literally a complaint that could be put on almost every coach, everywhere at every level.

[nodak651]

38 minutes ago, jdub27 said:

I've heard plenty of very direct and pointed commentary from Bubba, Berry, Sather and Bernhard on areas that need improvement and what they need to do to get there at various times. But they aren't going to constantly criticize their players in public if that's what you're looking for. That would be terrible coaching.

But to your general comment, that's literally a complaint that could be put on almost every coach, everywhere at every level.

I don't think his comment was really about about coach speak and I think you're putting words in his mouth.  Chaves being MIA, questionable standards, and a lack of innovation within the athletic department just makes "coach speak" particularly annoying, especially when "the little things" and "effort" aren't the root problem.  That's what I think the point was at least.

[Mama Sue]

Lack of innovation…very true. Some famous person said apathy is worse than negativity….