Kennedy vs. Engelstad Foundation: GF herald feature

[BarnWinterSportsEngelstad]

2017-18 school year       * after confirmed attendance #s.

Sport    Students  Avg Atten    $/Seat    #Games  Season$ 

FB         2,200       10,462*        $25         5                1M$   

MB                           1,500         $10         15              .22M$

WBB                        1,500          $10        15              .22M$

VB       

MH      3,000        11,408 *      $45         19              7.2M$ 

Do the $ from ticket sales go to R E Arena, Inc. or to the Engelstad Foundation?

Does the 52% of ticket $ stay with The Ralph or go to the Engelstad Foundation?

Is there some advantage/reason to have ticket sales $ not go directly to the AD? But, later have $48% go to AD, then, later have some of the $52% spent on U athletics in some way, but at the same time have the potential to send $ to other entities outside of UND (like a tool for obedience)?

The main reason that I can think of at this point for The Ralph management setup, is have some outside forces dictate where the retained funds go?         Protect Hockey for the long haul.

[BarnWinterSportsEngelstad]

 Now read slowly.

Kris Engelstad McGarry came to GF this past weekend to play 4 hand bridge with the boys. Coach Berry said thank you! Is AD Bill Chaves dizzy yet? - been awfully quiet, maybe wondering does this U even need him? Sounds like President Kennedy wasn't the lead dog on this Berry raise, and negotiations didn't go so smooth, hence the GF Herald sales skyrocketed?

A schooling in the rules of The Ralph with a true beat down thrown in.

[BarnWinterSportsEngelstad]

President Kennedy must of had a long long night last night. Probably realizing that this is his last presidency (no U will hire a Pres that upsets their U's #1 family) and decided to stay for the long haul. Today he gave the GF Herald a class act response and Kris smiled soon thereafter.  All is good in Hockey Town!

[Csonked Out]

2 hours ago, BarnWinterSportsEngelstad said:

2017-18 school year       * after confirmed attendance #s.

Sport    Students  Avg Atten    $/Seat    #Games  Season$ 

FB         2,200       10,462*        $25         5                1M$   

MB                           1,500         $10         15              .22M$

WBB                        1,500          $10        15              .22M$

VB       

MH      3,000        11,408 *      $45         19              7.2M$ 

Do the $ from ticket sales go to R E Arena, Inc. or to the Engelstad Foundation?

Does the 52% of ticket $ stay with The Ralph or go to the Engelstad Foundation?

Is there some advantage/reason to have ticket sales $ not go directly to the AD? But, later have $48% go to AD, then, later have some of the $52% spent on U athletics in some way, but at the same time have the potential to send $ to other entities outside of UND (like a tool for obedience)?

The main reason that I can think of at this point for The Ralph management setup, is have some outside forces dictate where the retained funds go?         Protect Hockey for the long haul.

this is a question I would like answered as well, what actually happens to the money that UND doesn't get. 

This could be Kennedy wanting to have UND have more control financially than it currently does. I kind of agree with him if that is the case. Will be interesting to see how this plays out.

[sprig]

6 hours ago, BarnWinterSportsEngelstad said:

(men's hockey, football, men's and women's basketball and volleyball). RE Arena Inc. retains 52 percent of such ticket revenue and remits 48 percent to UND.

RE Arena Inc. retains 64 percent of such sponsorship revenue, net of direct costs and remits 36 percent to the UND net of direct costs."

The NDUS report states that in fiscal year 2017, gross tickets sales were $4.6 million—meaning RE Arena Inc. took a $2.4 million share and UND was awarded $2.2 million.

In terms of advertising (also labeled sponsorship in the document), RE Arena Inc. made $769,000 and paid out $432,000 to UND

 

 

Where's the rest of the money. Where does food and beer sales go? 

I'm going to take a shot at the $. This will take some time and estimates and fine tune as go along. Any help much appreciated.

If FB had over 2,000 students ave and the Hawks Nest had over 10,000 avg attendance, then 8,000 seats sold. Times $25 seat = $200,000 x 5 games = 1M$, also remember $400,000 or whatever from FBS Utah game, which I'm not adding in.

MBB about 1500 seats

WBB??      

VB ??

If Hockey had over 3,000 students and The Ralph had over 11,000 avg attendance, then 8,000 seats sold. Times $45 seat $360,000 x 18 games not counting playoffs = 6.5M$. No counting what students pay for their tickets.

This seems more like 8M$ in ticket sales where the reports from Tupa's post and SBoHE show 4.6M$

Please tell me I'm doing something wrong here?

Season tickets for hockey are not face value.  They are $465 (45 for the quarterfinal 2 of  playoff series). Your math would equal 810 per seat. 

Season football tickets, 95 for  5 games.

[jdub27]

7 hours ago, Frozen4sioux said:

Again you think this magic money generated not from other programs should br paid out to other programs???.

Thats welfare. UND football cant stand on its own without welfare? Where does the money come from when nobody pays into the kitty?

You seem to ignore that UND hockey is where it is because it got $100 million in a "welfare" gift. Prior to the REA, it wasn't exactly bringing home the bacon. That gift was for the betterment of UND athletics, not just UND hockey, which is what it has slowly morphed into. 

[darell1976]

Sounds like to Kenndy’s view the school is the University of Engelstad, where they have all the power and call all the shots, and he is calling out Kris McGarry. Still need a lot more answers on the conversation between the two.

[siouxfan512]

11 hours ago, UND-FB-FAN said:

BB playing in the Alerus Center just screams hatred towards hockey, doesn't it? Wow, you need to get a grip. 

Now, if you specifically want to talk about collegiate hockey, you likely know the direction I'll go. What I said in regards to BB was not that, though. Instead, it focused on the idea of more space/seating with the Alerus Center. 

Nevertheless, I know of several Big 10 schools and a successful school in Fargo, ND, whose models completely support the notion that DI hockey is of merely minimal importance to a overall successful athletic department (Hint: football #1, basketball #2 always).

UND's overall athletic department at the DI level has not been successful with their unique ignorant format; recent cutting of athletic programs probably is #1 as to support of this.  

 

Typically, I would agree with you. But the contrast of hockey to football at UND is different than most places. I'm not saying it isn't possible to make Football bigger than hockey, but it is highly unlikely give the history and tradition of the hockey program.

Now if you know me at all from my posts, I absolutely love UND football and would love nothing more than to see it boom into something huge. But sheer will is not enough for that to happen. First, and absolutely most important, the football team needs to start winning more (something the hockey team does consistently, with the exception of this year) that draws and retains fans, and generates incomes to reinvest into athletics. Now NDSU has made that more difficult for us with there success, it is just harder to win the recruiting battles (maybe we should have gone D1 when they did; different discussion for a different place). This transition won't happen overnight, and simply reallocating funds to the program will not generate wins. There has to be additional funds for the program sure, but the school isn't going to short the most consistent athletic program that they have either; the one that does perform on the national stage, pumps out NHL players, and gets  some national publicity (yes, I understand that in the big picture it is a niche sport; but it also needs to be recognized that we are not a Big 10 school).

Could UND put all the pieces in place to become an NDSU in football? sure, but it will still be FCS; still something to strive for, but should not take away from your currently successful program to do so. (I'm not cashing in my Google stock to invest it all in a new start up, hoping for the same return; maybe I hedge some funds, but you can diversify without overly risking your cash cow).

As for Basketball, this is even tougher. Growing and sustaining this fan base is completely dependent on consistent winning seasons, recruiting better players (more Hookers/Crandalls/ and hopefully Bijiek) who can draw people to watch. To make basketball a big time sport at UND, they would need to make the NCAA tourney at least once every few years, and still be competitive in years that they miss it; not easy to do in a 1 bid league. Look at NDSU a few years ago, when they had a nice string of appearances, and some big wins. Even that didn't vault their program much.

Kind of a catch 22, you need fans to generate money, you need money to grow programs, you need wins to generate fans. Football needs to string together some success and I certainly hope they do it starting this year. Get into the playoffs and make a run. That means, win a few games that you aren't expected to win.

Yes, UND needs to continue to grow Football, and with increases in attendance they have been on the right track. But the success of football (and basketball for that matter) should be independent (for the most part) from hockey. Can you imagine what would happen if Villanova basketball wasn't getting their due funds, because the school wanted to throw some of that money towards FCS football? Like I said, I am all for growing Football in Basketball; I enjoy watching both, but you're talking about a smaller market school with limited funds (far different from your Big Ten teams). Funds are limited for the school, and for the fans as well. People have limited time, so you can't have the same fan base fully supporting hockey, basketball and football and you also can't tell people which sport they should support. People support hockey because it has sustained success for a long time, and planted roots into the community. Football can do the same, and did very will with this at the D2 level. What you need is more people in general, to hopefully create a football fan base, a hockey fan base, and a basketball fan base .... with some (but not total) overlap between the groups.

As for cutting programs, what were they supposed to do? If you run out of money, how do you sustain that many opportunities? I hate that UND had to cut programs, but they did have to do it. You want more money for football, but you don't want them to free up more funds? Its contradicts itself a bit. Limited funds ... you have to do something. I understand your sentiment of wanting football to be the top dog, but it comes across as though you would rather punish a different program for their success because it isn't the program you prefer.

Just my thoughts .....

[AJS]

I'm still having a hard time comprehending the 52% of Football sales. Did I miss where someone explained how that would make sense for UND?

[AJS]

I think when the dust settles and if we get all the information into the situation (which is the biggest part), I don't think too many people will be 100% in either persons corner. Right now, I have no doubt that the contract stinks for UND, but also, Kennedy should have handled it better. Which side I'll end up supporting would be just how bad is the contract / where is the extra money going vs how out of line Kennedy was (that part will be tougher to determine, since it'll be he said / she said).

 

*I shouldn't have said nobody will be 100%, those who have hurt feelings over Kennedy applying for UCF job / cutting Women's hockey will be 100% in one corner

[tnt]

1 hour ago, jdub27 said:

You seem to ignore that UND hockey is where it is because it got $100 million in a "welfare" gift. Prior to the REA, it wasn't exactly bringing home the bacon. That gift was for the betterment of UND athletics, not just UND hockey, which is what it has slowly morphed into. 

Ralph's own quote said the gift was to continue to make UND the top hockey program in the country, which is what his goal was when he gave it.

[darell1976]

13 minutes ago, AJS said:

I'm still having a hard time comprehending the 52% of Football sales. Did I miss where someone explained how that would make sense for UND?

That one is mind boggling, what does the football team have to do with the Engelstad’s? If anything I would think the city would be pissed cause that could be more money going to the city instead of the Engelstad’s. 

[tnt]

2 minutes ago, AJS said:

I think when the dust settles and if we get all the information into the situation (which is the biggest part), I don't think too many people will be 100% in either persons corner. Right now, I have no doubt that the contract stinks for UND, but also, Kennedy should have handled it better. Which side I'll end up supporting would be just how bad is the contract / where is the extra money going vs how out of line Kennedy was (that part will be tougher to determine, since it'll be he said / she said).

 

*I shouldn't have said nobody will be 100%, those who have hurt feelings over Kennedy applying for UCF job / cutting Women's hockey will be 100% in one corner

Personally, I cringe at the prospect of UND taking over the arena, because it will become second class and fall behind on updating.  I think they need to keep it the finest facility in the country by continually updating to new technology. 

[UNDBIZ]

5 minutes ago, darell1976 said:

That one is mind boggling, what does the football team have to do with the Engelstad’s? If anything I would think the city would be pissed cause that could be more money going to the city instead of the Engelstad’s. 

Pretty sure it's just a straight-forward rental agreement with the city, regardless of tickets sold.

[darell1976]

From 1997-2003 we saw 2 national titles and 3 national title games from the hockey team, 3 national titles from the women’s basketball team and 1 national title and 2 national title games from the football team. 7 years: 6 national titles, and 8 national title games. Our sports can all be successful, we can make a run in the dance (Loyola-Chi did), we can win a national title in FCS football (no point in moving up if an undefeated UCF can’t have a shot at a title), and we can win it all in hockey. It shouldn’t be UND football vs UND hockey it should be UND vs our opponents.

[Frozen4sioux]

 

1 minute ago, darell1976 said:

That one is mind boggling, what does the football team have to do with the Engelstad’s? If anything I would think the city would be pissed cause that could be more money going to the city instead of the Engelstad’s. 

This does seem strange to me as well, and think it gets lost in the mix? 

Im not sure why this is, I do think its a reasonable question to ask what value UND gets or what service is provided for the take on FB tickets.

Thats a fair reasonable and appropriate question.

[darell1976]

Just now, UNDBIZ said:

Pretty sure it's just a straight-forward rental agreement with the city, regardless of tickets sold.

 

Just now, Frozen4sioux said:

 

This does seem strange to me as well, and think it gets lost in the mix? 

Im not sure why this is, I do think its a reasonable question to ask what value UND gets or what service is provided for the take on FB tickets.

Thats a fair reasonable and appropriate question.

Maybe the Alerus gets some piece of the pie.

[petey23]

7 minutes ago, tnt said:

Personally, I cringe at the prospect of UND taking over the arena, because it will become second class and fall behind on updating.  I think they need to keep it the finest facility in the country by continually updating to new technology. 

I agree.

A. Fix this rift

B. Renegotiate the agreement

C. Extend the agreement

[The Sicatoka]

13 hours ago, UNDBIZ said:

http://www.grandforksherald.com/news/education/4444387-ndus-wants-keep-kennedy-engelstad-feud-local-level#.WvTj_8EmyXI.twitter

Tom threw in some of the numbers jdub has mentioned at the end of this article. 

Really wish Tu-Uyen Tran was still at the GFH. He had 'em; they were big, and brass, and clanked when he walked. He wrote truth and spoke it to power in the process. 

[homer]

20 minutes ago, AJS said:

I think when the dust settles and if we get all the information into the situation (which is the biggest part), I don't think too many people will be 100% in either persons corner. Right now, I have no doubt that the contract stinks for UND, but also, Kennedy should have handled it better. Which side I'll end up supporting would be just how bad is the contract / where is the extra money going vs how out of line Kennedy was (that part will be tougher to determine, since it'll be he said / she said).

 

*I shouldn't have said nobody will be 100%, those who have hurt feelings over Kennedy applying for UCF job / cutting Women's hockey will be 100% in one corner

Agree with this^^^^^^^^^ Well said.  

7 minutes ago, petey23 said:

I agree.

A. Fix this rift

B. Renegotiate the agreement

C. Extend the agreement

And agree with this^^^^^^^ well said.  

Now that everyone's hurt feelings are out in the open, the pressure is on to get to the table.  UND agreed to a deal a long time ago and the bottom line is things have really changed since than.  Time to be adults and talk about it.  Personally I am a bit more in Kennedy's corner but I also agree that if things aren't working right and $$$ starts slipping in the hockey program, there is a huge trickle down to other sports.  Its time get rid of this hockey and everything else mindset.  Grand Forks can support a clear #1 and #1A sport but other programs have to do the part and win.  Volleyball is proving by a percentage of attendance vs. capacity that people will show up for a successful program.  Tailgating last year was a popular thing.  It can work out for everyone and the stronger the entire athletic dept. is the better off all will be.  Hopefully that is Kennedy's intention here.

[The Sicatoka]

39 minutes ago, AJS said:

I'm still having a hard time comprehending the 52% of Football sales. Did I miss where someone explained how that would make sense for UND?

Yes, I would like more information on that as well.
That number (52%) seems awfully steep as a handle to sell the tickets (to an event not in your facility). 

[UND-FB-FAN]

8 hours ago, Frozen4sioux said:

 

You just don't get it. And that's fine, because there's no point arguing with someone who can't comprehend the financial logic. You simply refute everything I say with the same redundant narrative and then conclude with criticism of UND football/basketball and my education. That is not impressive by any standard, especially to people with collegiate athletics competence.

Your definition of "welfare" innately places you in a philosophical position against UND football and basketball. I disagree with it. I think more of the revenue that hockey generates - for at least a trial of a few years - should be used to invest in UND football and basketball. Investment basics 101. If UND football and basketball can grow in success, they themselves will have greater revenue opportunities. You, however, are obviously against that due to your bias towards UND hockey. You can't see that individually and that's fine I guess. 

I just believe UND hockey could use a few year break from all of its generated revenue so that UND football and basketball could benefit from the investment. UND hockey already has the nicest facilities in all of collegiate hockey. Unfortunately, the REA inc. agreement with UND prevents hockey's status from completely benefiting other sports. 

[The Sicatoka]

The Herald was against UND accepting Engelstad money before it was for it. Conversely, the Engelstads treated the news media --the Herald in particular -- like the plague until a few days ago. 

The Herald was for removing all traces of the Fighting Sioux nickname and logo before it was against it. 

The Herald didn't give a < bleep > about UND women's hockey until Kennedy cut it. 

The Herald was all for a competent, shake-it-up UND president until he was too competent, and got a look somewhere else.  

 

Herald gonna Herald. 
 

[Siouxperfan7]

5 minutes ago, The Sicatoka said:

The Herald was against UND accepting Engelstad money before it was for it. Conversely, the Engelstads treated the news media --the Herald in particular -- like the plague until a few days ago. 

The Herald was for removing all traces of the Fighting Sioux nickname and logo before it was against it. 

The Herald didn't give a < bleep > about UND women's hockey until Kennedy cut it. 

The Herald was all for a competent, shake-it-up UND president until he was too competent, and got a look somewhere else.  

 

Herald gonna Herald. 
 

Sic for the win!!!  

[Teeder11]

39 minutes ago, The Sicatoka said:

Really wish Tu-Uyen Tran was still at the GFH. He had 'em; they were big, and brass, and clanked when he walked. He wrote truth and spoke it to power in the process. 

A very good friend of mine to this day. Truer words ...

He took his cajones south to cow town and is further honing his craft there.