How will you vote June 12th?

[Gma loves hockey]

I just have trouble understanding why Standing Rock Tribal council would not sign an agreement to use the nickname, especially being it was their ancestors that did the religious pipe ceremony. Since then, the tribe has voted in new council members that still agree not to acknowledge the ceremony as binding. I feel most of the battle was lost right there.

[UNDColorado]

I get where the kill the nickname crowd is coming from. I understand it poses a threat to the Athletic future of North Dakota. I don't judge people harshly at this point for such positions..

I do however believe that the preponderance of rhetoric is currently coming from the kill the name side. Save the name opponents speak in absolutes when they should be speaking from a point of speculation. That doesn't mean they are wrong. It just means that they don't KNOW the future. Here are a few examples:

1. No one can say they know that the Big Sky will boot UND if we vote to keep the name. If I had to choose in a forced bet of a million dollars having to pick between the Big Sky booting us and them letting us stay following a keep the name vote, I would pick that they wouldn't boot us. They know the power of words and how cheap they are to speak and suggesting it is a possibility and actually doing it are very different things. Note: I'm not saying I'm highly confident they won't but there is no question which way I would put my money on that one..

2. Kill the nicknamers are interpreting others schools statements regarding "not scheduling until the name issue as resolved" as meaning that if we keep the name we are going to be blackballed from competition with their university forever. I feel that if we keep the name only through poor diplomacy would these schools actually bail on us long term. I may be wrong, but we do not know. We don't so don't try to say we do. You don't need to debate this with me, I already said you might be right. Did I mention that you don't know.

3. No one is considering the fact that keeping the name keeps us in the fight. The Federal judge that threw out the lacking attempt by the Spirit Lake lawyers suit commented that a few of the grounds in that case had merit but would need to be brought by UND. Well I hear no one talking about that. And this leads me to number 4;

4. ..Why don't we have an honest discussion about what the next steps that should be taken by UND, the SBofHE, the Sioux Tribe and the government of North Dakota IF the name resolution results in favor of keeping the name (next steps other than/beyond fighting the resolution itself). This is something that has never happened since the days of the settlement(if you want to call that a fight). At least it has not been transparent. I read a post today from fightingsioux4life where he passionately advocated for college hockey to fight against the Canadian Major Junior league and dispel their rhetoric regarding their superiority and I loved his post. It had passion, ownership and will, yya know the things that we were all tought to value in this country. I can say that I have never seen anything like that from the leadership groups in this fight( with the exception of the Sioux people themselves). I think we should all vote No and keep the name and send a big fat message to the leadership players, Kelley, Faison, SBofHE the Governor, Congress, and some worthy Attorney General to get with the Sioux people and devise a strategy. I know you will say we are beyond that, we have no cards becuase of the settlement and we can't because it will hurt the university, but can't never did a god damm thing and I would be very interested in a vote of the people forcing these players to actually do it..

Do you all think they would??

More Kill the name rhetoric:

5. Kill the namers say that it will diminish UND athletics if we keep the name but I don't hear them consider the devaluation of our program if we lose the Sioux name. I would say that 90% of the cost here will be in the hockey program. It is a Nationally known program and the Sioux name is a major part of that. Anyone remember how Blais felt about the nickname. I know, you will say Blais would probably not support keeping the name now. That's not my point. My point is what he said and that is still true. I'm pretty confident Blais would not redefine his value of the name itself? Losing the name will cost the hockey program the only question is how much. And yes I know you all believe that keeping it will cost more. I get it.

Just don't try to spin it by denying that killing the name will have NO COST. And many on here have been doing just that by saying it is just a nickname and the program is the atheletes not a nickname. That is not honest. The Sioux nickname carries a lot of wieght and goodwill and losing it will have an effect, period!

.

6. Kill the namers constantly compare our situation with that of South Carolina's. While they do this they never speak of the significant difference between the two. South Carolina's flag is an affront to Black People as it represents a historic support of slavery against Black people. The day we should be comparing South Carolina to us is the day Black organizations sue the NCAA to keep the flag. Note: I realize that it is another school under sanctions, I get that. But to compare the two marginalizes the differences and in those differences lies the greatest hypocrisy spewed by the NCAA. So at least if you are going to compare the two and marginalize that which we should NOT want marginalized, concede the truth in it for Pete's sake..

7. The kill the name group has been doing quite a bit of whining on this forum regarding name calling and person attacks. While I have not been posting much lately I have been reading everything and here is my interpretation for what it is worth. Kill the namers are lambasting the few people brave enough to throw out posts in support of the name. The personal put downs are tilted way in the direction of the Kill the namers. It seems to me to be almost like a mob mentality where people are starting to feel pretty comfortable degrading those who support keeping the name. I kinda feel like I'm watching the accused when I see the responses to a post by Davek or Fetch..

And I'm very curious as to why a few of the Kill the namers are always so close to their keyboard that they respond day and night to any keep the name post in a matter of minutes.. I know goon, that is a conspiracy theory no one is working against the name, they are all honest Sioux fans. Kelly and Fiason did everything they could to save it. Flat out exhausted themselves for years.

8. on that note, anyone every wonder why you have never heard Fiason say during one of his media sessions that while he was told by any of these "we're not scheduling you" universities how he tried really hard to convince them to not take that position because UND believed very strongly in keeping the name because EVERY vote, survey, poll ever done clearly showed that the Sioux people wanted UND to keep the name. We should ask the AD's of all of the Big Sky members how tall he stood on a soap box and fist pounded to support UND through this battle.

9. Kill the namers have taken to propaganda language rhetoric to spin their position. "nickname at all cost crowd" I've addressed this one before. It reminds me of our media, "access of evil" kind of stuff meant to evoke a negative image. Very impressive to use against your fellow North Dakotans. It inspired me to come up with "kill the namers" ya like it?? What you want UND to stop using the name- that kills it right?? How does that feel??? Murderers?? <---wow this is kinda fun and catchy, now I see where you all get it..

Once again, I will reiterate, "I understand the Kill the nickname position. It has rational to it. It has sense to it. BUT to quote, an oft repeated Kill the nickname phrase right back back at ya all,

"Quite drinking the coolaid!@"

and most importantly, respect the SIOUX name for what it is. It is has more value and meaning to the state of North Dakota and most of UND's current student body and US ALUMNI" than even just a great name qualifies..

There is no "kill the name" it is more like do what is best for the University as a whole type crowd. People who want to get rid of the name because it is hostile and abusive generally don't post here so you are really preaching to the wrong crowd. Keeping the name is such a losing battle in which we will not like the outcome, whatever it is.

A good example: After WW2 the remaining Japanese generals and admirals were asked why they didn't invade mainland America after Pearl Harbor, when we were at our very weakest point. They said that they did not invade because they knew it would have been a losing battle from the very beginning because almost every adult American had a gun and knew how to use it.

Point is they knew that going down that route was an absolute suicide mission. Keeping the name for whatever reason at this point is an absolute suicide mission because this is just the beginning. We do not hold very many firearms in this fight and our ammunition stores are rapidly depleting.

[82SiouxGuy]

I just have trouble understanding why Standing Rock Tribal council would not sign an agreement to use the nickname, especially being it was their ancestors that did the religious pipe ceremony. Since then, the tribe has voted in new council members that still agree not to acknowledge the ceremony as binding. I feel most of the battle was lost right there.

Standing Rock has always been one of the reservations with the least trust in the white man. That goes all the way back to Sitting Bull not wanting to live on the reservation. Many leaders in the American Indian Movement had some connection to Standing Rock or a few of the other Sioux reservations. Standing Rock officially came out against UND using the nickname in 1992, and they have been consistently against it since then. Their position is that the ceremony was not an official religious pipe ceremony. They have completely changed membership on the Tribal Council more than once and still have the same policy. That's why everyone knew that getting their approval was not very likely right from the start. No one should be surprised that they didn't change their minds.

[yababy8]

There is no "kill the name" it is more like do what is best for the University as a whole type crowd.A good example...:

There is no "keep the name at all costs" it is more like keep the name and accept we are going to get some damage but accept that getting banged up as part of the fight to keep that which is great to us, our name. And to believe that in the end we will survive AND have our name... oh I know you think we will die but I think we will make it and in the end not be marginalized..

A good example: during WWII our bombers would fly on missions over Germany knowing that they were going to get all shot to hell by Nazi fighter planes and anti-aircraft assaults. But they took the damage because it was a fight for freedom from the eventual rule of a dictator that would exact his racist opinions on their/our lifestyle. So they accepted the risk and the damage and did it anyway.. I thank them!!

See what I'm saying?, this is all a matter of opinion.. there is no 'know' in it.. It doesn't work that way. You can't say you know how something is going to turn out, you pick one path and see where it leads. and you do this based on estimations, considerations and most importantly values and convictions. Then you see your future..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3oz0zhEwZk&feature=related

.... I've only been able to think of one other nickname that I might be able to accept as a replacement for the great Sioux name. I have had it in my head for a couple of years now and I have never before mentioned it on Siouxsports forums because I want the focus to be on the fight against fascism and not assist in giving an easy out. Further, up until this point I don't think the University of North Dakota is worthy of the nickname as it does not apply to the institution thus far (with the exception of a few including Spirit Lake).

..But if we were brave enough to stand up to the NCAA in some real way, to unite as a community and a group of people who don't want to lose their name at the hands of tyanny and to vote with one loud voice and say together, "We will not surrender our name in vein" ..then down the road if we have to let it go, AFTER A FIGHT, A REAL FIGHT, then we might just be able to call ourselves;

BRAVEHEARTS

I could accept that nickname but only if it was earned.

[JackJD]

There is no "kill the name" it is more like do what is best for the University as a whole type crowd. People who want to get rid of the name because it is hostile and abusive generally don't post here so you are really preaching to the wrong crowd. Keeping the name is such a losing battle in which we will not like the outcome, whatever it is.

A good example: After WW2 the remaining Japanese generals and admirals were asked why they didn't invade mainland America after Pearl Harbor, when we were at our very weakest point. They said that they did not invade because they knew it would have been a losing battle from the very beginning because almost every adult American had a gun and knew how to use it.

Point is they knew that going down that route was an absolute suicide mission. Keeping the name for whatever reason at this point is an absolute suicide mission because this is just the beginning. We do not hold very many firearms in this fight and our ammunition stores are rapidly depleting.

Just a comment on paragraph two re: the story about the reluctance of the Japanese to attack mainland USA....

First, on the subject of this thread, I'm an outsider but if I had a connection with UND, I would be in lockstep with UNDColorado.

Now, on the story about the Japanese generals: that's a popular story that makes the rounds but it is not true. Many claim it is stated in a book but try to find a scholarly book making such a statement and supporting it with some sort of research. Admiral Yamamoto, having studied in the USA, is credited with the comment about "waking a sleeping giant" made prior to the attack on Pearl Harbor. He knew all about our natural resources and the spirit of the Americans. There was no plan to keep going to mainland USA...the Japanese Navy would have been stretched way too far. Japan had been running around SE Asia for years and its military leaders had concluded that the USA was meddling too much in its sphere of influence and inevitably would enter the war. So they hit first. They were interested in the USA butting out of SE Asia.

For anyone interested in the subject of the Pacific Theatre in WWII, go right to Prof. Gordon Prange's books starting with "At Dawn We Slept". It seems every phrase is footnoted (exaggeration) yet they are eminently readable.

[GeauxSioux]

Just a comment on paragraph two re: the story about the reluctance of the Japanese to attack mainland USA....

First, on the subject of this thread, I'm an outsider but if I had a connection with UND, I would be in lockstep with UNDColorado.

Now, on the story about the Japanese generals: that's a popular story that makes the rounds but it is not true. Many claim it is stated in a book but try to find a scholarly book making such a statement and supporting it with some sort of research. Admiral Yamamoto, having studied in the USA, is credited with the comment about "waking a sleeping giant" made prior to the attack on Pearl Harbor. He knew all about our natural resources and the spirit of the Americans. There was no plan to keep going to mainland USA...the Japanese Navy would have been stretched way too far. Japan had been running around SE Asia for years and its military leaders had concluded that the USA was meddling too much in its sphere of influence and inevitably would enter the war. So they hit first. They were interested in the USA butting out of SE Asia.

For anyone interested in the subject of the Pacific Theatre in WWII, go right to Prof. Gordon Prange's books starting with "At Dawn We Slept". It seems every phrase is footnoted (exaggeration) yet they are eminently readable.

Come on... I saw the movie 1941.... Belushi pushed back the Japanese single handed.

I do remember in Tora Tora Tora, Yamamoto making a comment about the US industrial complex being awesome.

[bincitysioux]

I think the "kill the nickname" crowd could be better described as the "Save the University of North Dakota" crowd..............................

And this isn't World War II........................this is a cartoonish and abstract figment of somebody's imagination that we are all arguing over.

[UNDBIZ]

There is no "keep the name at all costs" it is more like keep the name and accept we are going to get some damage but accept that getting banged up as part of the fight to keep that which is great to us, our name. And to believe that in the end we will survive AND have our name... oh I know you think we will die but I think we will make it and in the end not be marginalized..

.... I've only been able to think of one other nickname that I might be able to accept as a replacement for the great Sioux name. I have had it in my head for a couple of years now and I have never before mentioned it on Siouxsports forums because I want the focus to be on the fight against fascism and not assist in giving an easy out. Further, up until this point I don't think the University of North Dakota is worthy of the nickname as it does not apply to the institution thus far (with the exception of a few including Spirit Lake).

..But if we were brave enough to stand up to the NCAA in some real way, to unite as a community and a group of people who don't want to lose their name at the hands of tyanny and to vote with one loud voice and say together, "We will not surrender our name in vein" ..then down the road if we have to let it go, AFTER A FIGHT, A REAL FIGHT, then we might just be able to call ourselves;

BRAVEHEARTS

I could accept that nickname but only if it was earned.

If you don't think there's a "keep the nickname at all costs" crowd on this forum, apparently you haven't read any of Fletch's or LakesDave's posts. They've repeatedly called for an AHL team to take the logo and REA or for athletics at UND to be completely disbanded.

So you don't think UND has earned the name Bravehearts (a name which, personally, I don't like), but they have earned the name Fighting Sioux?? Apparently you don't regard the name Fighting Sioux as highly as you would like us to think.... if UND hasn't earned the name Fighting Sioux, then by all means, vote to take it away from them on June 12th.

[ScottM]

Anybody trying to equate this issue with war, genocide, murder or whatever really needs to brush up on their history,or take a tour of Cambodia or Angola.

[UNDColorado]

I just figured a ridiculous post deserved an equally ridiculous response, that's all. I knew that wasn't exactly true but the idea of knowing when to draw the line does make sense.

[fightingsioux4life]

Anybody trying to equate this issue with war, genocide, murder or whatever really needs to brush up on their history,or take a tour of Cambodia or Angola.

Or the Nazi death camps in Europe.

[jdub27]

This is so much bigger than UND sports (or any kind of sports for that matter). This is about fighting back against racist PC hatred.

You are full of it. Otherwise you would have been demanding that men's and women's hockey team wear their normal jerseys during the postseason because it would have made a point. But you didn't. Pretty easy to sit on the sideline and spout off nonsense.

I will have to agree with you on your first point though. This is bigger than UND sports but not for the reason you think. It is bigger than UND sports because it is about the University of North Dakota as a whole being the most successful university it can be and not be hampered by sanctions and bad PR.

[darell1976]

There are how many voters in ND? Hundreds of thousands...and they polled 500. Let's just say we won't know how people stand if they poll 1% of voters. Let's just wait until poll results 25 days from now. This will be more watched than the presidental election.

[yababy8]

I assume you all are speaking about UNDColorado with you moral terpretude since he is the one who brought up the WWII metaphor and my response to his post was simply a mirror consideration..

Further, this is same old for the kill three name croud whem it comes to pulling the, "your out of bounds with your metaphor" stuff. This type of rebuttal really deflects well from the points at hand doesn't it.

Of course the name issue is not synonymous with a world war. Do we need to discuss that because of a metaphor???

I used the flying bombers metaphor to make the point that one can choose to accept risk and damage if the goal is to achieve something desired. We all no that the ultimate risk to the solders was their life and in the save our name campaign the ultimate loss would be the marginalization of the UND athletic program. Everyone should get that without clarification, I would think, Right??

[yababy8]

I just figured a ridiculous post deserved an equally ridiculous response, that's all. I knew that wasn't exactly true but the idea of knowing when to draw the line does make sense.

This is exactly what I was addressing in that "rediculous" post.

The hostility on this forum toward anyone who suggests that we stand on the name is getting out of hand. I support the continued fight against the NCAA. My post you called rediculous began and ended with a concession to the kill the name side which acknowledged my understanding of the position. Beyond my support of the name, I feel compelled to set this debate right. For nowhere in an honorable debate is bullying and asset and the aggressive disposition of the kill the name side is starting to become a very poisonous coolaid around here.

[UNDBIZ]

This is exactly what I was addressing in that "rediculous" post.

The hostility on this forum toward anyone who suggests that we stand on the name is getting out of hand. I support the continued fight against the NCAA. My post you called rediculous began and ended with a concession to the kill the name side which acknowledged my understanding of the position. Beyond my support of the name, I feel compelled to set this debate right. For nowhere in an honorable debate is bullying and asset and the aggressive disposition of the kill the name side is starting to become a very poisonous coolaid around here.

Keeping the name does nothing to the NCAA. If you don't realize that at this point, then there is no getting through to you. Spirit Lake lost their lawsuit, UND (and the state) lost their lawsuit, and UND (and the state) signed a settlement which stipulates they won't sue the NCAA again unless the NCAA violates the original agreement. Standing Rock refuses to approve the nickname and every other tribe in the state has come out against the nickname (other than Spirit Lake). What do you propose as the next step in the war on the NCAA?

[UNDColorado]

This is exactly what I was addressing in that "rediculous" post.

The hostility on this forum toward anyone who suggests that we stand on the name is getting out of hand. I support the continued fight against the NCAA. My post you called rediculous began and ended with a concession to the kill the name side which acknowledged my understanding of the position. Beyond my support of the name, I feel compelled to set this debate right. For nowhere in an honorable debate is bullying and asset and the aggressive disposition of the kill the name side is starting to become a very poisonous coolaid around here.

It was a bad metaphor on my part. I just wanted to point out that many people on here want to drop the name because it is not in the best interest of the institution as a whole to keep the name anymore. I am not speaking for everyone, just my observations.

[Shawn-O]

This is exactly what I was addressing in that "rediculous" post.

The hostility on this forum toward anyone who suggests that we stand on the name is getting out of hand. I support the continued fight against the NCAA. My post you called rediculous began and ended with a concession to the kill the name side which acknowledged my understanding of the position. Beyond my support of the name, I feel compelled to set this debate right. For nowhere in an honorable debate is bullying and asset and the aggressive disposition of the kill the name side is starting to become a very poisonous coolaid around here.

I thought the fight was over when the North Dakota AG and the NCAA signed the settlement agreement.

[82SiouxGuy]

I assume you all are speaking about UNDColorado with you moral terpretude since he is the one who brought up the WWII metaphor and my response to his post was simply a mirror consideration..

Further, this is same old for the kill three name croud whem it comes to pulling the, "your out of bounds with your metaphor" stuff. This type of rebuttal really deflects well from the points at hand doesn't it.

Of course the name issue is not synonymous with a world war. Do we need to discuss that because of a metaphor???

I used the flying bombers metaphor to make the point that one can choose to accept risk and damage if the goal is to achieve something desired. We all no that the ultimate risk to the solders was their life and in the save our name campaign the ultimate loss would be the marginalization of the UND athletic program. Everyone should get that without clarification, I would think, Right??

You can have a goal, but without a way to reach the goal, the goal is meaningless. Accepting damage without gaining something is not acceptable to anyone. In your outrageous example you said that the bombers were taking damage and that was acceptable. The bombers were also helping accomplish a goal. They were weakening the opposition by destroying facilities, destroying munitions, destroying morale of the enemy, etc. The damage was acceptable because it was the only way to weaken the opponent to a point that they could be defeated. The Allies didn't let their planes be shot up, and people be killed, just to kill time. It was an acceptable price to be paid in order to accomplish the long term goal.

There is no winning scenario for UND in your process. You want the athletic department to continue to suffer damage indefinitely without a plan to win. The only possible win that is visible in your scenario is if the NCAA at some point gives in. That is a little like a kid with a big mouth taunting a bully every day and getting put in a locker every day. The kid with the big mouth could stop things by not talking. Instead he hopes to wear the bully down by continuing his behavior. His attitude is that sooner or later the bully will slam his hand in the locker and quit. It isn't going to happen. The NCAA isn't going to be damaged by UND being on sanctions. They don't care if UND is damaged or not, as a matter of fact they know that UND will be damaged if they stay under sanctions. UND can't wait them out. As a matter of fact, there is a better chance that the NCAA will expand the policy at some point in the future. The NCAA is a VOLUNTARY ORGANIZATION that is run by its members. That gives them more freedom to operate how they want as long as their membership agrees. They have membership approval for the current Native American policy.

As I said last night, there are really 2 scenarios left. If UND keeps the nickname, they stay on NCAA sanctions. That means a slow withering of the athletic department, or a much faster withering if the Big Sky kicks them out of the conference. If UND retires the nickname they can go back to building a successful athletic department. There is 1 more scenario. UND could keep the nickname and leave the NCAA for the NAIA. Of course the NAIA doesn't have hockey, so that wouldn't be acceptable to the hockey-only crowd, so that scenario is a non-starter. If you really support the University of North Dakota the only acceptable scenario is retiring the nickname and getting the program off sanctions.

[The Sicatoka]

I support the continued fight against the NCAA.

How?

With what?

The NCAA voted to give this power to their Executive Committee by an outlandish majority (like 1200+ to under 100).

The State of ND (including UND and the SBoHE) signed a settlement agreement that says the State can't sue the NCAA on this subject again.

The Spirit Lake Tribe's CUR was just thrown out of Federal court.

Please explain what options are left.

[yababy8]

Just for clarification, you do believe that the current costs completely set aside, having to give up the Sioux name is an injustice correct ?

[The Sicatoka]

Just for clarification, you do believe that the current costs completely set aside, having to give up the Sioux name is an injustice correct ?

Injustice is the wrong word (see: Federal court rulings).

An inequity? Yes, but contrary to what you may hear, all things in life aren't equal.

My opinion? See my signature.

[JohnboyND7]

A lot of us who are voting yes to retire the name and end the sanctions want UND to have a new name..eventually. We need to take steps first, and the first step is to retire the Sioux name, then at a later time we can worry about a replacement. ULM (Louisiana-Monroe) retired their Indians name and went with Warhawks. To me that sounds cool. So just because some schools pick dumb replacements there are some that can pick a nice replacement (of course nothing can fully replace Fighting Sioux).

Warhawks sounds stupid because it is just two random words put together.

[jdub27]

Warhawks sounds stupid because it is just two random words put together.

Coming from the fan of a team who's fanbase has to educate people on how to properly pronounce their nickname...

[geaux_sioux]

Why are we getting defensive about a nickname that isn't even ours? And yes it is a dumb one.