UND @ NDSU 11/19/2022

[shep]

5 minutes ago, iramurphy said:

My comments aren’t defending the coaches. It is a comment on the regurgitation of the same stuff week after week by the same poster. I have commented that I believe it derails many discussions. I have felt because their will be no change during the middle of a season it serves no purpose to insert the same complaints about coaches into virtually every discussion. I have believed that before we make wholesale change we better have a viable solution in place that we have full confidence will not set the program back but will likely be an improvement. Most of the fire the coach comments don’t show much more than a shallow understanding (if that much) as to the total picture and the complexities of building or tearing down a program. I am of the opinion that I support my staff up until the day I let them go. Each year staff is evaluated and among other things, they are asked what else they need to be successful. Then as an employer or a supervisor, before I consider change I self evaluate as to whether or not I have provided all of the resources that we mutually agreed were necessary for success. I am not sure that means I’m narrow minded or not. You may think so but I don’t believe I see a depth of understanding in the majority of fire people posts. Some want faster receivers. I posed the question: how fast is fast enough?.  4.6 fast enough? We know 40 times but I would rather know how quick we get off the LOS, how quick we can accelerate to full speed, how quick can we play FB within 20yds on both sides of the LOS. Arguably the fastest WR in our history struggled to catch the FB. We need bigger guys. Our listed sizes are similar to listed sizes for NDSU and SDSU. This is a pretty darn good group of asst coaches and from what recruits and parents have told me they do a good job. Show me an upgrade and I’m all for it, but let’s do that when the season is over. If that’s narrow minded then I’m guilty. Otherwise these guys have slowly improved the program so they have my public support until I see a change that will do better. Just my opinion which is no more valid than most anyone else’s. 

Always enjoy your perspective. It's not emotional, it's not angry, it's just to the point.

[geaux_sioux]

2 hours ago, iramurphy said:

My comments aren’t defending the coaches. It is a comment on the regurgitation of the same stuff week after week by the same posters. I have commented that I believe it derails many discussions. I have felt because their will be no change during the middle of a season it serves no purpose to insert the same complaints about coaches into virtually every discussion. I have believed that before we make wholesale change we better have a viable solution in place that we have full confidence will not set the program back but will likely be an improvement. Most of the fire the coach comments don’t show much more than a shallow understanding (if that much) as to the total picture and the complexities of building or tearing down a program. I am of the opinion that I support my staff up until the day I let them go. Each year staff is evaluated and among other things, they are asked what else they need to be successful. Then as an employer or a supervisor, before I consider change I self evaluate as to whether or not I have provided all of the resources that we mutually agreed were necessary for success. I am not sure that means I’m narrow minded or not. You may think so but I don’t believe I see a depth of understanding in the majority of fire people posts. Some want faster receivers. I posed the question: how fast is fast enough?.  4.6 fast enough? We know 40 times but I would rather know how quick we get off the LOS, how quick we can accelerate to full speed, how quick can we play FB within 20yds on both sides of the LOS. Arguably the fastest WR in our history struggled to catch the FB. We need bigger guys. Our listed sizes are similar to listed sizes for NDSU and SDSU. This is a pretty darn good group of asst coaches and from what recruits and parents have told me they do a good job. Show me an upgrade and I’m all for it, but let’s do that when the season is over. If that’s narrow minded then I’m guilty. Otherwise these guys have slowly improved the program so they have my public support until I see a change that will do better. Just my opinion which is no more valid than most anyone else’s. 

4.6 is fast enough for Kooper Kupp. But he’s an unbelievable route runner and player in general to go with it.

[iramurphy]

52 minutes ago, geaux_sioux said:

4.6 is fast enough for Kooper Kupp. But he’s an unbelievable route runner and player in general to go with it.

So tell me, how fast is good enough?

[Oxbow6]

6 minutes ago, iramurphy said:

So tell me, how fast is good enough?

Faster than the guy across from you in most cases is preferred.

[iramurphy]

I would rather have a WR who runs disciplined routes, can accelerate off his breaks and can catch the ball. If they can do that, 4.6 is fast enough at every level. 4.4 would be even better but 1 or 2 tenths Having been around 4 different NFL teams I think people would be surprised at how many WR and DBs are no faster than 4.6. In the first 20-30 yds there is little distance between a 4.5 guy and a 4.6 or even 4.7 guys. I want bigger, faster guys at every position,  so you are correct. I believe we have enough size and speed at our offensive skill positions. I’d like to see our guys quicker OL, DL, LB and esp DB but we are where we are and I think we can still be successful. 

[Bison06]

1 hour ago, iramurphy said:

I would rather have a WR who runs disciplined routes, can accelerate off his breaks and can catch the ball. If they can do that, 4.6 is fast enough at every level. 4.4 would be even better but 1 or 2 tenths Having been around 4 different NFL teams I think people would be surprised at how many WR and DBs are no faster than 4.6. In the first 20-30 yds there is little distance between a 4.5 guy and a 4.6 or even 4.7 guys. I want bigger, faster guys at every position,  so you are correct. I believe we have enough size and speed at our offensive skill positions. I’d like to see our guys quicker OL, DL, LB and esp DB but we are where we are and I think we can still be successful. 

I agree with everything you’re saying. Taking a big picture look though, 4.6 and 4.7 receivers in the nfl are the exception rather than the rule. To play at a high level at that speed you need to be elite at the other elements of being a great receiver eg. Hands, route running, situation awareness etc.

Speed isn’t everything at the position, but it matters.

As an example, running great routes doesn’t mean as much if a db can sit on routes knowing he doesn’t have to flip his hips early to cover the home run. 

Speed is an element of the game that drives fear into defensive backs. Getting beat for 10-15 yards over and over again is annoying and frustrating, but it isn’t embarrassing like getting beat over the top is. When lined up against 4.3 guys, a db and/or defensive coordinator is constantly thinking about getting beat deep and that opens up a lot of other routes. Coverage gets rolled that way, a safety gets rolled to that side over the top to stop the deep ball and that’s one more player not showing up in the run game.

I agree with your premise, speed isn’t absolutely needed for success at the receiver position, but being scary fast can wreak havoc on defensive schemes without a doubt.
 

https://ftw.usatoday.com/lists/the-wide-receivers-who-ran-slow-at-the-nfl-combine-and-still-had-pretty-good-careers

[iramurphy]

Obviously 4.3 is going to be game planned much differently than 4.6. It goes without saying that as you move up, each level from HS to D2 to FCS to FBS players at all positions tend to be bigger and faster. My point is that we have receivers that run 4.5-4.6 at we are fine at WR. Happy to have a 4.3-4.4 guy but they are rare. Your guy Watson was faster but had a rep for drops. Continued early this year but his size and speed can be game breakers when he catches the ball. I think the biggest asset for NDSU and SDSU linemen is their foot speed and athletic ability as well as their physical strength. 

[iramurphy]

2 hours ago, Oxbow6 said:

Faster than the guy across from you in most cases is preferred.

Yup, at all positions. 

[Bison06]

18 minutes ago, iramurphy said:

Obviously 4.3 is going to be game planned much differently than 4.6. It goes without saying that as you move up, each level from HS to D2 to FCS to FBS players at all positions tend to be bigger and faster. My point is that we have receivers that run 4.5-4.6 at we are fine at WR. Happy to have a 4.3-4.4 guy but they are rare. Your guy Watson was faster but had a rep for drops. Continued early this year but his size and speed can be game breakers when he catches the ball. I think the biggest asset for NDSU and SDSU linemen is their foot speed and athletic ability as well as their physical strength. 

Without Belquist, who seems to my eye to have elite athleticism and skill, but may be a 4.5 guy(could be wrong here) you’re receiving core would be well below average.

[iramurphy]

4 minutes ago, Bison06 said:

Without Belquist, who seems to my eye to have elite athleticism and skill, but may be a 4.5 guy(could be wrong here) you’re receiving core would be well below average.

I agree Belquist is special. I would guess he is a 4.5-4.6 guy. Dennis is reportedly faster. Wright is probably a 4.6. Wilson is a 4.5-4.6 RB slot WR. Maag has proven himself an effective Receiver.  Our TE’s are decent but very under utilized as receivers. They all block well and they can catch. This isn’t an elite group because of average overall speed but I would rate them above average. 

[geaux_sioux]

13 minutes ago, iramurphy said:

I agree Belquist is special. I would guess he is a 4.5-4.6 guy. Dennis is reportedly faster. Wright is probably a 4.6. Wilson is a 4.5-4.6 RB slot WR. Maag has proven himself an effective Receiver.  Our TE’s are decent but very under utilized as receivers. They all block well and they can catch. This isn’t an elite group because of average overall speed but I would rate them above average. 

In testing Maag is our fastest wr. Doesn’t exactly translate to the field though. I’ll die on the hill that we need at least one track star type deep threat on the team to be an elite offense. Everything changes with a true deep threat. 

Another interesting thing is KK is one of our fastest players but he gets torched every single game. So as we’ve said, speed is only one facet. Awareness is king though.

[SuhakiYeahYeah]

7 minutes ago, geaux_sioux said:

In testing Maag is our fastest wr. Doesn’t exactly translate to the field though. I’ll die on the hill that we need at least one track star type deep threat on the team to be an elite offense. Everything changes with a true deep threat. 

Another interesting thing is KK is one of our fastest players but he gets torched every single game. So as we’ve said, speed is only one facet. Awareness is king though.

Possibly phoning Caden Dennis?

[UND-FB-FAN]

11 hours ago, iramurphy said:

Obviously 4.3 is going to be game planned much differently than 4.6. It goes without saying that as you move up, each level from HS to D2 to FCS to FBS players at all positions tend to be bigger and faster. My point is that we have receivers that run 4.5-4.6 at we are fine at WR. Happy to have a 4.3-4.4 guy but they are rare. Your guy Watson was faster but had a rep for drops. Continued early this year but his size and speed can be game breakers when he catches the ball. I think the biggest asset for NDSU and SDSU linemen is their foot speed and athletic ability as well as their physical strength. 

To sum it up, everyone wants big, strong, fast players. NDSU and SDSU have bigger, stronger, faster players than most programs in the FCS, hence their success.

 

Development is key still, no doubt, but recruiting big, strong, fast high school kids (or signing FBS drop downs or JuCo players) is still important. 
 

Although scheme (Xs and Os) matters, and NDSU and SDSU do well with it, there’s still no debate you have to have a team full of good football players with measurables, also. 
 

UND receiving corps has Belquist, but everyone else is below average. Can’t run, 4.6 is a stretch for most of the roster, and the ones that can run (Dennis) need to get into the weight room. Maag is slow on the football field. I like Red Wilson - he’s been good for UND this season. 

[SiouxFan100]

I don’t remember a lot of dropped passes this year.

[UND-FB-FAN]

7 minutes ago, SiouxFan100 said:

I don’t remember a lot of dropped passes this year.

No doubt.Catching has been good. Catching plus speed/separation is better. more work to do. 

Belquist is very good and has elevated that whole group’s production. Maag also can catch, despite being slow. 

[wheelsup]

Just so I have it clear in my head…. 
a group of mediocre.. below average WRs (except belquist).. somehow have participated in an offense which is near the top of the Missouri valley.  Man our coaches must be really good to end up with those kind of stats with such a bunch of mediocre talents.. .. lots of sarcasm in case it didn’t come through.

I’ll take a belquist/maag/red/Dennis type every year.. and maybe wish for a true burner type as well (although maag has been plenty open on many deep routes) 

the wr group has been one of our positives this year and about 100th on the priority list behind pretty much every defensive position.. 

[iramurphy]

3 hours ago, UND-FB-FAN said:

No doubt.Catching has been good. Catching plus speed/separation is better. more work to do. 

Belquist is very good and has elevated that whole group’s production. Maag also can catch, despite being slow. 

Geaux_Sioux says Maag is our fastest receiver. I wouldn’t know but I have no reason to doubt his comment. Maag is an effective receiver and has shown the ability to get open. If he is our fastest guy, then he is a 4.6 or better guy. If our guys can run disciplined routes and accelerate off their breaks 4.6 is fine. How much separation do you think there is between a 4.5 guy and even a 4.7 guy within the first 20-30 yds?  There are virtually less than a stride apart. The deeper the pattern the more important the elite speed is. Otherwise I will take an athlete who can read the coverage and is quick enough to accelerate off the break or into the seam and catches the ball. 

[Sioux>Bison]

On 11/24/2022 at 8:07 AM, Midwestern Hawk said:

Get them?  Get who?  Don’t  they develop them. Who are all the giant NFL bound DL playing at the SU’s?   

What about USD? What talent have they landed that we are passing on?

[CMSioux]

On 11/25/2022 at 11:22 AM, iramurphy said:

My comments aren’t defending the coaches. It is a comment on the regurgitation of the same stuff week after week by the same posters. I have commented that I believe it derails many discussions. I have felt because there will be no change during the middle of a season it serves no purpose to insert the same complaints about coaches into virtually every discussion. I have believed that before we make wholesale change we better have a viable solution in place that we have full confidence will not set the program back but will likely be an improvement. Most of the fire the coach comments don’t show much more than a shallow understanding (if that much) as to the total picture and the complexities of building or tearing down a program. I am of the opinion that I support my staff up until the day I let them go. Each year staff is evaluated and among other things, they are asked what else they need to be successful. Then as an employer or a supervisor, before I consider change I self evaluate as to whether or not I have provided all of the resources that we mutually agreed were necessary for success. I am not sure that means I’m narrow minded or not. You may think so but I don’t believe I see a depth of understanding in the majority of fire people posts. Some want faster receivers. I posed the question: how fast is fast enough?.  4.6 fast enough? We know 40 times but I would rather know how quick we get off the LOS, how quick we can accelerate to full speed, how quick can we play FB within 20yds on both sides of the LOS. Arguably the fastest WR in our history struggled to catch the FB. We need bigger guys. Our listed sizes are similar to listed sizes for NDSU and SDSU. This is a pretty darn good group of asst coaches and from what recruits and parents have told me they do a good job. Show me an upgrade and I’m all for it, but let’s do that when the season is over. If that’s narrow minded then I’m guilty. Otherwise these guys have slowly improved the program so they have my public support until I see a change that will do better. Just my opinion which is no more valid than most anyone else’s. 

We were told we would never be competitive in the MVFC, third season and we are #3. It is BS to say the conference is down this year. If you really follow the team you get to know some of the parent's of the players and you hear how much they support Bubba and the staff and how much their son is enjoying his time at UND. Of course there are exceptions but the overall vibe you get from the parent's is positive. Most would never come to this site and I'm quite certain they would be perplexed of the negativity they would read (from a minority thankfully). 

[Sioux95]

12 minutes ago, CMSioux said:

We were told we would never be competitive in the MVFC, third season and we are #3. It is BS to say the conference is down this year. If you really follow the team you get to know some of the parent's of the players and you hear how much they support Bubba and the staff and how much their son is enjoying his time at UND. Of course there are exceptions but the overall vibe you get from the parent's is positive. Most would never come to this site and I'm quite certain they would be perplexed of the negativity they would read (from a minority thankfully). 

For what it's worth, we were much more successful in our first 3 years in the Missouri valley than NDSU was. I'm not sure about South Dakota state,  but I would assume the same. I know that's not an apples to apples comparison because we had our stint in the big sky, but still something that stands out as better than a lot of people expected.

[BarnWinterSportsEngelstad]

1 hour ago, CMSioux said:

We were told we would never be competitive in the MVFC, third season and we are #3. It is BS to say the conference is down this year. If you really follow the team you get to know some of the parent's of the players and you hear how much they support Bubba and the staff and how much their son is enjoying his time at UND. Of course there are exceptions but the overall vibe you get from the parent's is positive. Most would never come to this site and I'm quite certain they would be perplexed of the negativity they would read (from a minority thankfully). 

Way too much negativity.
Mods' friends are the trolls. Only site I know in MVFC that allows trolls to troll in a game day.
There are negative posters that support troll's negative posts against our team.

Scientific. Through research by Heaphy & IDed.
"For every negative comment you make, you need to share 5 positive comments as well"



As the saying goes. 

[SiouxFan100]

This game is over and done

onward

[UND-FB-FAN]

4 hours ago, iramurphy said:

Geaux_Sioux says Maag is our fastest receiver. I wouldn’t know but I have no reason to doubt his comment. Maag is an effective receiver and has shown the ability to get open. If he is our fastest guy, then he is a 4.6 or better guy. If our guys can run disciplined routes and accelerate off their breaks 4.6 is fine. How much separation do you think there is between a 4.5 guy and even a 4.7 guy within the first 20-30 yds?  There are virtually less than a stride apart. The deeper the pattern the more important the elite speed is. Otherwise I will take an athlete who can read the coverage and is quick enough to accelerate off the break or into the seam and catches the ball. 

That stride you are talking about is what separation is. There are athletes that can read coverage and are quick/fast. Nice combination, exists more commonly than you would think, but it’s high in demand.