2020 Dumpster Fire (Enter at your own risk)

[yzerman19]

58 minutes ago, wxman91 said:

Here’s the problem - you think that a $300 bottle of wine impresses people.  I’m assuming that you are a business owner, so here’s what would actually impress us.  How well paid are your employees?  How good are their benefits?  How long do they stay with your company?  Are any of your employees on government assistance?

The world is always going to have business owners and employees.  How the employees are treated is a better measure of the success of a society than the boss’s extraction of wealth.

Why would I want to impress nameless people on a message board?  I was actually consuming a fairly difficult to find and excellent bottle of wine at the time, so it was the immediate example at hand.  

Importantly, your statement about people is spot-on.  The folks who work for me love me.  I’ve developed and advanced many people.  Can’t do it for everyone, because some people lack talent or work ethic.  Those that have it though- it’s been as rewarding for me intrinsically as it has been for them financially and professionally.  
 

 

[UNDlaw80]

1 hour ago, Bison06 said:

The problem is people’s interpretation of the words social justice. If it means us coming together and working to provide equal access to opportunities so people can more easily rise, I will literally pick up a sign and stand next to you or anyone else. That’s a beautiful and I think incredibly American project and I fully support it.

To many, equality has morphed into equity and equal opportunity has morphed into equal outcomes. Providing equal outcomes requires discrimination against others, which is just taking a sin of the past and directing it at a new group. Eventually that will create more problems than it solves.

 

1 hour ago, wxman91 said:

Tracing from this is the problem with the interpretation of equal opportunity.  There are people in this thread that think that because there are no longer laws on the books that stand in the way of equal opportunity everything is now on an even playing field.  But that is a radical interpretation of the world in which we live with massive wealth disparities and social geography, and the problems caused by both.

In other words, we can’t just wash our hands of history and say that everyone has the same chances.

Never in our history, has everyone had the same access to opportunity, wealth, healthcare, etc.  In fact, despite the right-wing's aversion to the term 'social justice', Trump was elected, in part, due to the conservatives' own push for it.  He appealed to the blue-collar family whose opportunity and hope were/are diminishing in modern America.  See populist/tea party movement.   

I respectfully understand where these folks are coming from; unfortunately, (as Bison06 detailed) implementation often manifests itself as discrimination.  In Trump’s case, it's nationalism, anti-'elite', anti-foreigner, anti-minority.

Same stick, different end.  

[Old Fella]

34 minutes ago, yzerman19 said:

Why would I want to impress nameless people on a message board?  I was actually consuming a fairly difficult to find and excellent bottle of wine at the time, so it was the immediate example at hand.  

Importantly, your statement about people is spot-on.  The folks who work for me love me.  I’ve developed and advanced many people.  Can’t do it for everyone, because some people lack talent or work ethic.  Those that have it though- it’s been as rewarding for me intrinsically as it has been for them financially and professionally.  
 

 

I'm willing to bet you're also smarter than Mr. Trump.

[yzerman19]

10 minutes ago, Old Fella said:

I'm willing to bet you're also smarter than Mr. Trump.

I will say this.  It is reported that his father taught him to never be the one to sign a deal personally.  My father taught me to never do a deal unless you can look that person in the eye, sign it, and be willing to do it with your children in the room watching.  
 

not that you literally have your kids in the board room, but that you’d sleep well at night if they knew every aspect of what you were doing.  
 

Business is a long game, and your reputation lasts forever.  In the end it’s all you have and outweighs EQ and IQ.

[UNDlaw80]

20 hours ago, Goon said:

 

Sensationalism and distraction. 

Of course the actions of some idiots in Portland and some other cities are worry-some,  but the vast majority of protests are peaceful, nor is 99.9% of America even experiencing violence at protests right now.  Yet it's still the Right's 'go-to' talking point; like ad nauseum.  "The violence and lawlessness of Antifa and liberal protesters will be the death of this country!"    Seriously,  **** off.  

You know what is affecting people?  Our economy is in the toilet, unemployment is rampant and Covid-19 has spread everywhere.  

  

 

[yzerman19]

I still contend that inequality is a tremendous motivator if there is an attainable path to upward mobility.   Therefore focusing on inequality on its own is the wrong lens.

This country was founded on opportunity and inequality in other lands.  Poor and hopeless in Europe- indentured servitude in America gave you a chance.  
 

Affordable home ownership to me is a major vehicle. There are affordable homes across “fly-over” country, but there aren’t as many jobs.  So, my goal would be advancing millenial focused jobs in more rural areas- covid and the zoom boom should make that easier.  

[yzerman19]

9 minutes ago, UNDlaw80 said:

 

Sensationalism and distraction. 

Of course the actions of some idiots in Portland and some other cities are worry-some,  but the vast majority of protests are peaceful, nor is 99.9% of America even experiencing violence at protests right now.  Yet it's still the Right's 'go-to' talking point; like ad nauseum.  "The violence and lawlessness of Antifa and liberal protesters will be the death of this country!"    Seriously,  **** off.  

You know what is affecting people?  Our economy is in the toilet, unemployment is rampant and Covid-19 has spread everywhere.  

  

 

The internet and social media with its dulling of humanity is the biggest threat we face.  More so than an antifa protest.  Cancel culture and the willingness to “kill” a person online like you would kill a bot in a video game.  It’s so de-sensitized.  I’m waiting for a major lawsuit against a platform like Facebook for damages due to inciting a virtual mob.
 

The country is very much split, like 51/49.  It is incredibly important that the barely minority’s rights are protected, no matter what side they are on.  The framers were very concerned about this and built the government to prefer gridlock over trampling without a super majority.  
 

Using Executive orders, eliminating the filibuster, expanding the Supreme Court, eliminating the electoral college, adding senators...these things all are abuses (no matter what side) and are contrary to the goals of the framers.  
 

[Old Fella]

26 minutes ago, yzerman19 said:

I will say this.  It is reported that his father taught him to never be the one to sign a deal personally.  My father taught me to never do a deal unless you can look that person in the eye, sign it, and be willing to do it with your children in the room watching.  
 

not that you literally have your kids in the board room, but that you’d sleep well at night if they knew every aspect of what you were doing.  
 

Business is a long game, and your reputation lasts forever.  In the end it’s all you have and outweighs EQ and IQ.

So, I won the bet/you are smarter than Trump, however the bar was set very low.

[Kab]

22 minutes ago, UNDlaw80 said:

 

Sensationalism and distraction. 

Of course the actions of some idiots in Portland and some other cities are worry-some,  but the vast majority of protests are peaceful, nor is 99.9% of America even experiencing violence at protests right now.  Yet it's still the Right's 'go-to' talking point; like ad nauseum.  "The violence and lawlessness of Antifa and liberal protesters will be the death of this country!"    Seriously,  **** off.  

You know what is affecting people?  Our economy is in the toilet, unemployment is rampant and Covid-19 has spread everywhere.  

  

 

And if a democrat was president the same things would be happening, economy would be worse and they would blame it on a video in China 

[yzerman19]

12 minutes ago, Old Fella said:

So, I won the bet/you are smarter than Trump, however the bar was set very low.

Defining smarter is hard?  Is it knowledge, experience, IQ, EQ, a mix of all of the above?  
 

I don’t believe Trump lacks knowledge, experience or IQ points (might not be a genius, but he’s probably at least 120-130).

What Trump lacks is a filter, temperance, and patience.  He doesn’t care to bring people along his mental construct, he just fires from the hip.  
 

one thing experience has taught me is how important it is to frame things and bring people up to speed with your thought process before just blasting away with a decision or opinion.  I think Trump has been an autocratic business leader for so long that he just doesn’t think like that.

so, I am not a Trumpist.  I voted libertarian last time- was in a State that was going Hillary no matter what, so it was basically a protest vote.  That said, we are in some very unprecedented times right now.  Neither Trump nor the democrats appeal to my belief structure, so it becomes the lesser of two evils.  I was sincerely hoping Biden would claim the middle ground like a Bill Clinton Democrat, but I’m concerned the party has gone so far left he can’t do that.  With Covid too much of the country is now dependent on government.  It was bad before, it’s horrible now.   

[yzerman19]

Lincoln saved the Republic by bringing millions to their knees.  I hope it doesn’t come to that.  The cultural, experiential, philosophical, and economic divides in this country are tremendous.  What does a Wyoming cowboy or Texas Oil man have in common with a Brooklyn chef or a Los Angeles graphic designer?  Little to begin with, then start layering in where they grew up, their experiences, their ethnicity....

[Frozen4sioux]

4 minutes ago, yzerman19 said:

Defining smarter is hard?  Is it knowledge, experience, IQ, EQ, a mix of all of the above?  
 

I don’t believe Trump lacks knowledge, experience or IQ points (might not be a genius, but he’s probably at least 120-130).

What Trump lacks is a filter, temperance, and patience.  He doesn’t care to bring people along his mental construct, he just fires from the hip.  
 

one thing experience has taught me is how important it is to frame things and bring people up to speed with your thought process before just blasting away with a decision or opinion.  I think Trump has been an autocratic business leader for so long that he just doesn’t think like that.

so, I am not a Trumpist.  I voted libertarian last time- was in a State that was going Hillary no matter what, so it was basically a protest vote.  That said, we are in some very unprecedented times right now.  Neither Trump nor the democrats appeal to my belief structure, so it becomes the lesser of two evils.  I was sincerely hoping Biden would claim the middle ground like a Bill Clinton Democrat, but I’m concerned the party has gone so far left he can’t do that.  With Covid too much of the country is now dependent on government.  It was bad before, it’s horrible now.   

Nails on head, you're hitting them.

I don't care about Biden, it's the seeething hoardes of evil that control the party and everything happening behind him that is so dangerous to the country. 

BIDEN is just an empty vehicle being proped up as a figurehead to provide a host for the parasitic army of hatred and control.

[Hayduke1]

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/annehelenpetersen/antifa-rumors-george-floyd-protests

 

How The Antifa Fantasy Spread In Small Towns Across The US

https://newsregister.com/article?articleTitle=antifa-strength-numbers-greatly-overstated-by-foes--1593740758--37546--commentary

Antifa strength, numbers greatly overstated 

https://www.businessinsider.com/barr-gop-present-antifa-major-threat-but-no-evidence-killings-2020-7

Trump, Barr, and the GOP present antifa as a major threat in the US, but they're not killing people — unlike white supremacists

 

https://www.mercurynews.com/anarchists-and-antifa-not-according-to-the-data

Anarchists and antifa’? Not according to the data

Analysis shows many of those arrested do not fit the caricature of an anarchist bent on destruction

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/27/us-rightwing-extremists-attacks-deaths-database-leftwing-antifa

Anti-fascists linked to zero murders in the US in 25 years

As Trump rails against ‘far-left’ fascism, new database shows leftwing attacks have left far fewer people dead than violence by rightwing extremists

[yzerman19]

I’m just writing away this morning...

Here are some other things that have really degraded opportunity in the USA that have nothing to do with social justice:

1.  Corporations outsourcing jobs overseas to save a buck.  Inflated earnings, but at the expense of product quality (pharma great example) and US jobs.

2.  The elimination of defined benefit pensions.  Again, really improved the balance sheets of Corporations, but at the cost of security.  Do not confuse this with the underfunded pensions in the public sector.  Those would be fine too if they were properly managed.

3.  Corporate tax law.  If you look at the effective rates actually paid, well, let’s just say we all wish we paid so little.

4.  Housing.  I’ve said it a million times.  All people want is a job, a family, and a home they own.  When a house in CA costs $700k as a starting point, there is no hope for the masses.  
 

im losing steam...too much posting for a Sunday morning.

[TheFlop]

1 hour ago, Hayduke1 said:

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/annehelenpetersen/antifa-rumors-george-floyd-protests

 

How The Antifa Fantasy Spread In Small Towns Across The US

https://newsregister.com/article?articleTitle=antifa-strength-numbers-greatly-overstated-by-foes--1593740758--37546--commentary

Antifa strength, numbers greatly overstated 

https://www.fox4news.com/news/tuesday-marks-4-years-since-dallas-police-ambush

[wxman91]

1 hour ago, yzerman19 said:

I’m just writing away this morning...

Here are some other things that have really degraded opportunity in the USA that have nothing to do with social justice:

1.  Corporations outsourcing jobs overseas to save a buck.  Inflated earnings, but at the expense of product quality (pharma great example) and US jobs.

2.  The elimination of defined benefit pensions.  Again, really improved the balance sheets of Corporations, but at the cost of security.  Do not confuse this with the underfunded pensions in the public sector.  Those would be fine too if they were properly managed.

3.  Corporate tax law.  If you look at the effective rates actually paid, well, let’s just say we all wish we paid so little.

4.  Housing.  I’ve said it a million times.  All people want is a job, a family, and a home they own.  When a house in CA costs $700k as a starting point, there is no hope for the masses.  
 

im losing steam...too much posting for a Sunday morning.

Reagan was a disaster for this country.

[yzerman19]

4 minutes ago, wxman91 said:

Reagan was a disaster for this country.

Victory in the Cold War and curbing inflation on one hand.

Economic devastation to the working class, manufacturing, mining, farming on the other.

I blame the Fed for almost all our economic woes.

[Hayduke1]

36 minutes ago, TheFlop said:

https://www.fox4news.com/news/tuesday-marks-4-years-since-dallas-police-ambush

https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/

Police have killed 598 people in 2020.

No, those officers should not have been killed.

But...  the frustration level in our country is at an all time high.  I can understand why it happened.  Doesn't mean I condone it. 

That concept may be too much for you to understand.  

[homer]

I thought we were supposed to trust the experts.  

https://www.yahoo.com/huffpost/nancy-pelosi-deborah-birx-142917445.html

[Hayduke1]

7 minutes ago, homer said:

I thought we were supposed to trust the experts.  

https://www.yahoo.com/huffpost/nancy-pelosi-deborah-birx-142917445.html

Well, she has good reason.  Our COVID 19 rate is rising, by a lot.  It's not going down.  Yet, this:

"Pelosi’s private criticism followed a New York Times report that Birx had been telling Trump in recent months that the coronavirus threat in the U.S. was fading. Democrats have condemned Trump for repeatedly downplaying the threat of the virus and not taking swift, forceful action to contain it."

[UNDlaw80]

2 hours ago, Kab said:

And if a democrat was president the same things would be happening, economy would be worse and they would blame it on a video in China 

 

As it pertains to Covid?  Yea I agree.  Trump royally ****-ed up but I'm not confident the Democrats have the competency to do any better.   

As it pertains to race riots/violence?   Trump is part of the problem.  You know his game-plan is to fan the flames when he threatened to send the Feds into cities where there was little or no violence, nor federal buildings being harmed. 

But that's this Administration's shtick, it's predicated entirely on dividing this country.   I mean we're in historical times and, unlike any other President, not once has Trump articulated an all-encompassing collective unifying message to the nation.  He gets in front of a mic and spews personal grievances.  I suppose this appeals to some people.  Whatever.          

[UNDlaw80]

53 minutes ago, wxman91 said:

Reagan was a disaster for this country.

 

Speaking of Reagan, he'd be considered a leftist 'never Trumper' in today's political climate.    

Reagan Foundation recently went as far as to tell the RNC to stop using his likeness next to Trump. 

[homer]

15 minutes ago, Hayduke1 said:

Well, she has good reason.  Our COVID 19 rate is rising, by a lot.  It's not going down.  Yet, this:

"Pelosi’s private criticism followed a New York Times report that Birx had been telling Trump in recent months that the coronavirus threat in the U.S. was fading. Democrats have condemned Trump for repeatedly downplaying the threat of the virus and not taking swift, forceful action to contain it."

So she is judging, and you are agreeing that it’s warranted based on her opinion of the virus a few months ago. Maybe she changed her opinion after becoming more familiar with the virus.  The D’s dint grant her the same leniency as Fauci gets for changing his stance on masks??

[Hayduke1]

6 minutes ago, homer said:

So she is judging, and you are agreeing that it’s warranted based on her opinion of the virus a few months ago. Maybe she changed her opinion after becoming more familiar with the virus.  The D’s dint grant her the same leniency as Fauci gets for changing his stance on masks??

"Maybe" she changed her opinion.  Maybe.  If that is the case, my guess is that she hasn"t changed her narrative with Trump. 

Fauci's stance has probably changed based on data.  I havent bothered looking it up.  If it changed,  can't fault him for that. A false narrative on Fauci wont change people's trust in his credibility.  Trump can't figure that out, among countless other things. 

[homer]

8 minutes ago, Hayduke1 said:

"Maybe" she changed her opinion.  Maybe.  If that is the case, my guess is that she hasn"t changed her narrative with Trump. 

Fauci's stance has probably changed based on data.  I havent bothered looking it up.  If it changed,  can't fault him for that. A false narrative on Fauci wont change people's trust in his credibility.  Trump can't figure that out, among countless other things. 

You haven’t bothered looking up Fauci’s history in masks? Come on.