Kennedy vs. Engelstad Foundation: GF herald feature

[hky]

There's a difference between eventually transitioning to a logo and having it shoved down your throat.  Is it really that important to have it at center court?  Really?  A quick google image search turns up many courts with the school name or initial(s) rather than their nickname/logo:  Duke, Denver, Minnesota, Michigan, SDSU...

[UNDBIZ]

1 minute ago, hky said:

There's a difference between eventually transitioning to a logo and having it shoved down your throat.  Is it really that important to have it at center court?  Really?  A quick google image search turns up many courts with the school name or initial(s) rather than their nickname/logo:  Duke, Denver, Minnesota, Michigan, SDSU...

UND is trying to push a consistent identity and get fans used to seeing the logo. When fans get used to seeing the logo, they associate und and the logo with one another. When fans do that, they decide to express support for und by wearing the logo. Basketball and volleyball players, coaches, and (most) fans are already on board with the new logo. There's no excuse for refusing to place the logo at center court.

Is it really that important to not have the logo at center court? 

[Frozen4sioux]

12 minutes ago, UNDBIZ said:

UND is trying to push a consistent identity and get fans used to seeing the logo. When fans get used to seeing the logo, they associate und and the logo with one another. When fans do that, they decide to express support for und by wearing the logo. Basketball and volleyball players, coaches, and (most) fans are already on board with the new logo. There's no excuse for refusing to place the logo at center court.

Is it really that important to not have the logo at center court? 

As far as the court goes. No its a battle that could have been "conseeded" with little to no effect on the "segment "majority" of the REA customers.

[Davlun]

4 hours ago, geaux_sioux said:

Maybe her fuhrer told her never to allow a new mascot logo at center/court ice in his bunker?

Very poor choice of words.

[geaux_sioux]

Just now, Davlun said:

Very poor choice of words.

How so? Historically accurate.

[Norhsidepride]

48 minutes ago, Frozen4sioux said:

Like it or not, this is in FACT,  not true.

ALL sides of the argument agree in this point.

Arguing about who does and who doesn't has taken up pages but the legacy obviously means something more to a program of certain distinction.

LIke it or not - I will restate and say excluding hockey - the Majority.. since you like to bold things .....of athletes playing at UND, and coming in the future do not identify with the old logo or name - but they will leave their legacy as fighting hawks and will do it proudly wearing that uniform for a University that they will love after four years as much as everyone else here does. 

I am curious though - as one year leads to another and another if the logo or name will make a difference to Hockey players in H.S right now that may play at UND 3 or 5 years from now.  They will obviously know the history and legacy of the program - that doesn't change - but will they care which name is placed where - a thought only, not offering an opinion (before someone else has a coronary at that computer)

[Norhsidepride]

I keep hearing that the legacy is more important to a certain program.  Is it more important to the players who are actually playing the game or the people who had there identity taken from them by the NCAA?  Because those people will always be Fighting Sioux, that can not be taken away -  but the future generations will be Fighting Hawks and their experience should not be any different from those who came before them because of a logo battle they have nothing to do with. 

[Rebel_Sioux]

1 hour ago, UNDBIZ said:

No, they didn't. Football had it on their jersey and there was a banner in the alerus. Basketball had it on their shorts.

Also, the school didn't lack a unified identity prior to 2012.

I'll concede that the logo was on the banners at the Alerus and even the Hyslop Pool if I recall correctly. But the logo did not appear on the jersey of any non-hockey team while I was a student (07-12). From what I've been told this was true prior to me attending as well and a Google search shows that the 2001 championship uniforms didn't display the Sioux logo or name.

 

Speaking of Google, it does appear the word Sioux appeared on the basketball jerseys through 2011. Logos don't often make it onto basketball jerseys so I'll concede that point in terms of their jerseys. 

Edited May 16, 2018 by Rebel_Sioux
Correction

[CarpeRemote]

23 minutes ago, UNDBIZ said:

UND is trying to push a consistent identity and get fans used to seeing the logo. When fans get used to seeing the logo, they associate und and the logo with one another. When fans do that, they decide to express support for und by wearing the logo. Basketball and volleyball players, coaches, and (most) fans are already on board with the new logo. There's no excuse for refusing to place the logo at center court.

Is it really that important to not have the logo at center court? 

Agree. 

Every successful college sports program is intensely branded. Its not easy to do but It’s critical for recruiting, monetization, and winning. The most important thing about the logo/mascot is that it’s incorporated into the overall program brand. 

What the logo actually is, is far less important, 

Penguins sounds stupid until they reel off championships, after that it’s a brand and next thing you know hard nosed Steeler fans are walking around with a formal chicken on their shirts and it looks fine.

Golden Knights was a little cheesy until now. Oilers, meat Packers, Crimson algae, Buckeye nuts, generic animals like Jayhawks, Eagles, Gators, Bruins, Bears, Longhorns, and Ducks...all goofy until they kick your a$$. 

Those schools and teams are the brand, the logos are secondary but need to be embraced and incorporated  

Other teams feared North Dakota, not the Sioux. They don’t care what our logo is or was, but they do care about playing a great hockey program. 

The more we bitch the more it hurts our brand. As a recruit it would be weird going somewhere where fans are so neurotic they seem hate the mascot on your jersey more than they like the team.

1/2 these kids in college are probably sick of a bunch of grumpy old men screaming ‘Sioux’ and ‘get off my lawn’. I guarantee the players get sick of it, they never played for the Sioux and are here because UND, not the Sioux, gives them a shot at glory and the NHL. Allow them to be proud of the logo, not be embarrassed by it  

I didn’t like it at first but my brain trumped my vicarious memories, and I decided I like winning a helluva lot more than nostalgia. Life is about change. 

Put the damn Hawk on the floor and hats and embrace it, buy a keychain. We can modify how it looks later if we want, it’s done all the time. Build the brand, sell the shirts, pay the bills, recruit the players, win the games, have fun; repeat.  

[darell1976]

3 hours ago, Rebel_Sioux said:

I'll concede that the logo was on the banners at the Alerus and even the Hyslop Pool if I recall correctly. But the logo did not appear on the jersey of any non-hockey team while I was a student (07-12). From what I've been told this was true prior to me attending as well and a Google search shows that the 2001 championship uniforms didn't display the Sioux logo or name.

 

Speaking of Google, it does appear the word Sioux appeared on the basketball jerseys through 2011. Logos don't often make it onto basketball jerseys so I'll concede that point in terms of their jerseys. 

2009

 

http://www.undsports.com/PhotoAlbum.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=13500&PALBID=21914

2008 vs Texas A&M-Kingsville

Logo came off in 2010 (which was the original deadline for the Indian tribes to give their permission per the settlement)

 

[darell1976]

2 hours ago, Rebel_Sioux said:

I'll concede that the logo was on the banners at the Alerus and even the Hyslop Pool if I recall correctly. But the logo did not appear on the jersey of any non-hockey team while I was a student (07-12). From what I've been told this was true prior to me attending as well and a Google search shows that the 2001 championship uniforms didn't display the Sioux logo or name.

 

Speaking of Google, it does appear the word Sioux appeared on the basketball jerseys through 2011. Logos don't often make it onto basketball jerseys so I'll concede that point in terms of their jerseys. 

[Old Time Hockey]

6 hours ago, darell1976 said:

2009

 

http://www.undsports.com/PhotoAlbum.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=13500&PALBID=21914

2008 vs Texas A&M-Kingsville

Logo came off in 2010 (which was the original deadline for the Indian tribes to give their permission per the settlement)

 

We should have kept the interlocking on the helmets and replaced the 2 inch Sioux patch with the same size FH patch.  That would have helped with the transition for some of us.   

[homer]

8 hours ago, Frozen4sioux said:

As far as the court goes. No its a battle that could have been "conseeded" with little to no effect on the "segment "majority" of the REA customers.

I appreciate a president that has a backbone and goes to bat for what his coaches want in their home arena. 

[Davlun]

7 hours ago, geaux_sioux said:

How so? Historically accurate.

Using fuhrer and bunker in your post. Where is the history there. 

[darell1976]

11 minutes ago, Old Time Hockey said:

We should have kept the interlocking on the helmets and replaced the 2 inch Sioux patch with the same size FH patch.  That would have helped with the transition for some of us.   

I don't like the numbers on one side of the helmet. I would rather see a logo on both sides.

[Siouxperman8]

8 hours ago, hky said:

There's a difference between eventually transitioning to a logo and having it shoved down your throat.  Is it really that important to have it at center court?  Really?  A quick google image search turns up many courts with the school name or initial(s) rather than their nickname/logo:  Duke, Denver, Minnesota, Michigan, SDSU...

The difference is that UND Men's BB, Women's BB, Volleyball, the president and AD all weighed in with what they wanted at center court and the arena managers refuse to do it.  The coaches also say that is what the players want and I don't have reason to doubt them.

Kennedy has a responsibility to find a way to get along with our largest donor but McGarry and and the REA come off as really petty in this instance.   McGarry also looks fairly disingenuous when comparing her statements to the Herald and the emails uncovered through FOIA request

 

[UNDBIZ]

8 hours ago, Frozen4sioux said:

As far as the court goes. No its a battle that could have been "conseeded" with little to no effect on the "segment "majority" of the REA customers.

Oh my.

@MafiaMan

[UND-FB-FAN]

9 hours ago, hky said:

There's a difference between eventually transitioning to a logo and having it shoved down your throat.  Is it really that important to have it at center court?  Really?  A quick google image search turns up many courts with the school name or initial(s) rather than their nickname/logo:  Duke, Denver, Minnesota, Michigan, SDSU...

You're missing the point. The overall relationship, or the lack thereof, between the University of North Dakota and the Ralph Engelstad Foundation is the issue. The logo just happens to be one of the stages by which it's set.  The University of North Dakota represents the ideals of more than just those  directly associated with the Betty Engelstad Sioux Center and Ralph Englestad Arena. If folks feel the REA  makes or breaks the University of North Dakota, then I would really question those folks'  values and principles. 

[Rebel_Sioux]

7 hours ago, darell1976 said:

2009

 

http://www.undsports.com/PhotoAlbum.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=13500&PALBID=21914

2008 vs Texas A&M-Kingsville

Logo came off in 2010 (which was the original deadline for the Indian tribes to give their permission per the settlement)

 

Oh yes.. That tiny, indistinguishable logo at the center certainly destroys my point about the team using main logo when the large ND is plastered everywhere else including the center field.

I should have said 2010 beforehand for the men's team. The women's team switch to the jersey you posted in 2008. The football team didn't wear a large/traditional logo on their jersey in a very long time.

[Oxbow6]

7 minutes ago, UND-FB-FAN said:

You're missing the point. The overall relationship, or the lack thereof, between the University of North Dakota and the Ralph Engelstad Foundation is the issue. The logo just happens to be one of the stages by which it's set.  The University of North Dakota represents the ideals of more than just those  directly associated with the Betty Engelstad Sioux Center and Ralph Englestad Arena. If folks feel the REA  makes or breaks the University of North Dakota, then I would really question those folks'  values and principles. 

Best argument and position I've read so far.

[Oxbow6]

Once again there seems to be this thought process by many here that being a supporter and fan of UND, especially in regards to athletics, has to include the unconditional acceptance of the new nickname and logo. Some also try to tie the increase in "record" dollars given to the university to the new nickname and logo. Neither of these things have to be or are mutually inclusive.  With all that said put the logo where ever it is best suited.

[petey23]

1 hour ago, Old Time Hockey said:

We should have kept the interlocking on the helmets and replaced the 2 inch Sioux patch with the same size FH patch.  That would have helped with the transition for some of us.   

Great. Now you go and point out yet another terrible decision that was made in this whole process.

[darell1976]

8 hours ago, Rebel_Sioux said:

 But the logo did not appear on the jersey of any non-hockey team while I was a student (07-12).

This was your post, and I corrected it. 

[Frozen4sioux]

How many football teams ever have a large logo on the jerseys ?

A small logo under the neckline is common, shoulder logos are common.

Football has used the indian head logo sparingly in the 80s "similar" to the bhawks  logo used by hockey.

Hockey is far and away the only sport to brand with a logo so prominently on a uniform.... hence why the greater connection with fan bases imho.

 

[Oxbow6]

The interlocking ND IMO needs to still have a prominent role at UND. I know the Norte Dame argument but that's one school vs. the countless schools that have a hawks logo.