Moo U Dumpster Fire Thread

[geaux_sioux]

17 minutes ago, oldSioux said:

Does anyone know if NDSU has had a "true deep threat" or "blow off the top" WR in their last 8 years of dominance and the coaches only called house plays on every call to try and score each down?

Zach Vraa was for their early great teams before injuries slowed him. Sheppard was after that. On top of that, you’re going to really gloss over the fact that I clearly stated a deep threat can open up the run game second only to a good OL? Are you really that incapable of a true argument? This isn’t a novel concept, it’s well established.

[oldSioux]

Just now, geaux_sioux said:

Zach Vraa was for their early great teams before injuries slowed him. Sheppard was after that. On top of that, you’re going to really gloss over the fact that I clearly stated a deep threat can open up the run game second only to a good OL? Are you really that incapable of a true argument? This isn’t a novel concept, it’s well established.

Hey man, I'm not even trying to argue the only reason I really posted in the first place was because you kept talking about how our WR's were "too white and slow" which for one, just stop with the whole white thing man if a kid can ball they can ball. Secondly, Maag ran a 4.6 at a combine and hes like 6'4" that's FAST for his size and SEC speed is like 4.5... Also what do you expect from the team next year. Also, NDSU is not known for their "deep threats" at all and all they do is WIN.

 

I'll throw a disclaimer out there, I really have no quarrels, just want to talk football and question some ideas is all. cheers. 

[oldSioux]

24 minutes ago, geaux_sioux said:

Sheppard was after that.

If you want to compare deep threat ability based on these fast and skilled tangibles: Sheppard ran a 4.61 and is 5'11. Brock (faster, taller, and bigger at 6'1 190) ran a 4.6. Maag (taller, bigger, and faster as well) ran a 4.6. 

 

My point in all this is I think we have some awesome weapons at the Slot/ WR position. So is our concern with the deep ball really about the players we have? Or how we go about it? Throw Skonka in the flat or run with him and this team call ball. 

[geaux_sioux]

1 hour ago, oldSioux said:

If you want to compare deep threat ability based on these fast and skilled tangibles: Sheppard ran a 4.61 and is 5'11. Brock (faster, taller, and bigger at 6'1 190) ran a 4.6. Maag (taller, bigger, and faster as well) ran a 4.6. 

 

My point in all this is I think we have some awesome weapons at the Slot/ WR position. So is our concern with the deep ball really about the players we have? Or how we go about it? Throw Skonka in the flat or run with him and this team call ball. 

Where are you getting your numbers? Also Sheppard was a very good route runner, Brock isn’t there yet.

And you can’t say someone is faster just because you had one guys time going to the hundredth and the other two going to tenths. That’s just not sound.

[SiouxFan100]

Seems like our whole program is a mess. Not big enough, fast enough, strong enough, and short enough (wr it appears ), either have too many or not enough position players.

coaching is suspect. Can’t bid playoff games right. 

I can’t figure it out. I know others can.

 I still love our team and look forward to next year. Going to Kansas in September. Should be a fun pregame. 

[oldSioux]

26 minutes ago, geaux_sioux said:

Where are you getting your numbers? Also Sheppard was a very good route runner, Brock isn’t there yet.

Just quick search from time to time.. everything is on the internet. If you compare their sophomore seasons (Sheppard's red shirt fresh). Him and Maag are very similar. 

From the mold you describe and the players you used in examples, our WR stack up very well against that. But again, I don't disagree a better passing attack helps, but I don't agree with the belief that our WR's are at fault for that. Also, look at who was passing to Sheppard and who was passing to Maag and Boltmann. 

[geaux_sioux]

38 minutes ago, oldSioux said:

Just quick search from time to time.. everything is on the internet. If you compare their sophomore seasons (Sheppard's red shirt fresh). Him and Maag are very similar. 

From the mold you describe and the players you used in examples, our WR stack up very well against that. But again, I don't disagree a better passing attack helps, but I don't agree with the belief that our WR's are at fault for that. Also, look at who was passing to Sheppard and who was passing to Maag and Boltmann. 

Right, you are aware that you can’t really compare 40 times unless they’re using the same running surface and same method of measurement right? That’s why the combine is the true test for that. 

[Mama Sue]

58 minutes ago, SiouxFan100 said:

Seems like our whole program is a mess. Not big enough, fast enough, strong enough, and short enough (wr it appears ), either have too many or not enough position players.

coaching is suspect. Can’t bid playoff games right. 

I can’t figure it out. I know others can.

 I still love our team and look forward to next year. Going to Kansas in September. Should be a fun pregame. 

I know... can’t get PII off the ground, the hawk costume, the announcer (or lack of one), et al!  But if I didn’t love UND.... what am I checking this forum all the time for???can’t wait for signing day (early) and second signing day and spring ball and the first game and and snd

[BIGSIOUX]

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2838888-the-nfl-nerds-are-right-that-the-running-game-is-overrated-but-it-still-matters

 

This is what i was getting at.  Running matters, but not as much as you think.

Just because that was the prevailing mentality, doesn't mean it was correct.  

[oldSioux]

2 minutes ago, geaux_sioux said:

Right, you are aware that you can’t really compare 40 times unless they’re using the same running surface and same method of measurement right? That’s why the combine is the true test for that. 

I am not aware of that at all. If that was the case then why are combines so highly attended and athletes are looked at from a quantitative perspective? This is a dead end at this point, but Sheppard ran a 4.66 (officially) with NFL caliber training and as a senior fresh off a national championship. From some articles I read into, while sheppard was decent in the hands game he was ripped a bit for his tangibles and numbers he posted. Maag ran a 4.6 as a senior in high school. Would love to see his numbers now. Sheppard had Wentz throwing to him while we had Kett. From a tangibles side, Maag gets the edge. From benefiting from a system and QB ability, sure Sheppard looks appealing. Give Maag a few years, and I wouldn't be surprised if Scouts are calling Bubba. 

 

Case and point, establish a meaningful run game and give the QB time to toss it up (with a better OL) and let Maag, and boltmann go get it. WR are not the issue we face this off-season. 

[oldSioux]

11 minutes ago, BIGSIOUX said:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2838888-the-nfl-nerds-are-right-that-the-running-game-is-overrated-but-it-still-matters

 

This is what i was getting at.  Running matters, but not as much as you think.

Just because that was the prevailing mentality, doesn't mean it was correct.  

That's true, I might have expressed a run or die mentality but that wasn't my goal. I think some things to look at too is the lack of TE incorporation in the offense now a days (which i don't like to see). I think offenses are adjusting to a different style of play. But the point I was trying to convey is if you are able to keep a defense honest  with respecting your run game, you won't always see them playing in nickle coverage and can take shots from time to time and be effective.  avg yards per att: UND 4.2 NDSU 6.5 MSU 5.8 JMU 5.3. 

 

Another example of how important the run game is: SAC vs AP... when SAC lost their all big sky RB early. Look how everything else fell apart for the offense, how AP stayed in passing defense and was able to get to Kevin Thompson through various blitzes not worrying about the run. 

[FlinFlan80]

40 minutes ago, oldSioux said:

I am not aware of that at all. If that was the case then why are combines so highly attended and athletes are looked at from a quantitative perspective? This is a dead end at this point, but Sheppard ran a 4.66 (officially) with NFL caliber training and as a senior fresh off a national championship. From some articles I read into, while sheppard was decent in the hands game he was ripped a bit for his tangibles and numbers he posted. Maag ran a 4.6 as a senior in high school. Would love to see his numbers now. Sheppard had Wentz throwing to him while we had Kett. From a tangibles side, Maag gets the edge. From benefiting from a system and QB ability, sure Sheppard looks appealing. Give Maag a few years, and I wouldn't be surprised if Scouts are calling Bubba. 

 

Case and point, establish a meaningful run game and give the QB time to toss it up (with a better OL) and let Maag, and boltmann go get it. WR are not the issue we face this off-season. 

Completely agree. I would say our QB, DL, LB, RB, and OL rooms are all more of a concern than our wide receivers. I know Danny did a great job with them and it looks like the new guy is following suit.

[geaux_sioux]

58 minutes ago, oldSioux said:

I am not aware of that at all. If that was the case then why are combines so highly attended and athletes are looked at from a quantitative perspective? This is a dead end at this point, but Sheppard ran a 4.66 (officially) with NFL caliber training and as a senior fresh off a national championship. From some articles I read into, while sheppard was decent in the hands game he was ripped a bit for his tangibles and numbers he posted. Maag ran a 4.6 as a senior in high school. Would love to see his numbers now. Sheppard had Wentz throwing to him while we had Kett. From a tangibles side, Maag gets the edge. From benefiting from a system and QB ability, sure Sheppard looks appealing. Give Maag a few years, and I wouldn't be surprised if Scouts are calling Bubba. 

 

Case and point, establish a meaningful run game and give the QB time to toss it up (with a better OL) and let Maag, and boltmann go get it. WR are not the issue we face this off-season. 

You can’t say one guy ran a 4.6 and the other ran a 4.66 and be taken seriously. On top of that, everyone knows that HS athlete measurements are notoriously inflated to increase their recruitability. 

[oldSioux]

3 hours ago, geaux_sioux said:

You can’t say one guy ran a 4.6 and the other ran a 4.66 and be taken seriously. On top of that, everyone knows that HS athlete measurements are notoriously inflated to increase their recruitability. 

Alright I almost did not respond but I had to, you're really going to discredit me for bringing in quantitative values into production/ tangibles of WR's and your main argument on a few threads here were based around how our WRs are too white and slow that's all you said, no numbers to support it no nothing. Now NDSU has had these amazing deep threat WRs that has been a major contributor to their success, we also found to be false, now you wanna say 40 times cant be trusted and that's some well known fact. You can't make this stuff up... give it a break man. Have you watched an NDSU game lately? Do you want to know why some games stay close until the 4th? Physicality and dominating lines. They stick to a script. If you'd like an air it out team and pass first team go cheer for WAZZU.

1. We're on the same team here and 2. are you really that upset we don't need help at the WR position next year? Would you rather that be another off season fire to put out? Are you ashamed you have parody with both tall and short White WRs faster than an NFL player?

 

[NDRA]

1 hour ago, oldSioux said:

Alright I almost did not respond but I had to, you're really going to discredit me for bringing in quantitative values into production/ tangibles of WR's and your main argument on a few threads here were based around how our WRs are too white and slow that's all you said, no numbers to support it no nothing. Now NDSU has had these amazing deep threat WRs that has been a major contributor to their success, we also found to be false, now you wanna say 40 times cant be trusted and that's some well known fact. You can't make this stuff up... give it a break man. Have you watched an NDSU game lately? Do you want to know why some games stay close until the 4th? Physicality and dominating lines. They stick to a script. If you'd like an air it out team and pass first team go cheer for WAZZU.

1. We're on the same team here and 2. are you really that upset we don't need help at the WR position next year? Would you rather that be another off season fire to put out? Are you ashamed you have parody with both tall and short White WRs faster than an NFL player?

 

I think he's trying to say that he doubts Maag would have that 4.6 had he been timed officially at the NFL combine like Sheppard did.

[oldSioux]

7 minutes ago, NDRA said:

I think he's trying to say that he doubts Maag would have that 4.6 had he been timed officially at the NFL combine like Sheppard did.

Could be quicker  , joking. I see what he is saying.

[iramurphy]

5 minutes ago, NDRA said:

I think he's trying to say that he doubts Maag would have that 4.6 had he been timed officially at the NFL combine like Sheppard did.

Yes he would have. Hard for me to understand all of the talk about lack of speed when the only 40 time we came up with was 4.6. Do you know there are wide receivers in the NFL no faster than that?  The isn’t a big difference between 4.5 and 4.6 or 4.7. Run the right pattern accelerate into the open spot these guys we had this year were effective receivers. There aren’t that many 40-50 yd passes in a game. 

[SiouxFan100]

Go Hawks

[Nodak78]

33 minutes ago, SiouxFan100 said:

Go Hawks

Best post I have seen in days.

[geaux_sioux]

3 hours ago, oldSioux said:

Alright I almost did not respond but I had to, you're really going to discredit me for bringing in quantitative values into production/ tangibles of WR's and your main argument on a few threads here were based around how our WRs are too white and slow that's all you said, no numbers to support it no nothing. Now NDSU has had these amazing deep threat WRs that has been a major contributor to their success, we also found to be false, now you wanna say 40 times cant be trusted and that's some well known fact. You can't make this stuff up... give it a break man. Have you watched an NDSU game lately? Do you want to know why some games stay close until the 4th? Physicality and dominating lines. They stick to a script. If you'd like an air it out team and pass first team go cheer for WAZZU.

1. We're on the same team here and 2. are you really that upset we don't need help at the WR position next year? Would you rather that be another off season fire to put out? Are you ashamed you have parody with both tall and short White WRs faster than an NFL player?

 

Vraa wasn’t a deep threat? Hilarious. I’ve seen plenty of NDSU games. Their offense runs best when they, gasp, have a deep threat at wr. This year they have Watson providing that service.

1. We’re not on the same page

2. You have no idea what Maag and Boltmann run in the 40. 

[UND-FB-FAN]

17 hours ago, oldSioux said:

I am not aware of that at all. If that was the case then why are combines so highly attended and athletes are looked at from a quantitative perspective? This is a dead end at this point, but Sheppard ran a 4.66 (officially) with NFL caliber training and as a senior fresh off a national championship. From some articles I read into, while sheppard was decent in the hands game he was ripped a bit for his tangibles and numbers he posted. Maag ran a 4.6 as a senior in high school. Would love to see his numbers now. Sheppard had Wentz throwing to him while we had Kett. From a tangibles side, Maag gets the edge. From benefiting from a system and QB ability, sure Sheppard looks appealing. Give Maag a few years, and I wouldn't be surprised if Scouts are calling Bubba. 

 

Case and point, establish a meaningful run game and give the QB time to toss it up (with a better OL) and let Maag, and boltmann go get it. WR are not the issue we face this off-season. 

UND does not have the talent or coaching to ignore certain positions in recruiting. UND is a 7-5 football team. They need to recruit and improve at ALL positions. Sure, we can argue which position is most important, for which I agree offensive line, but UND has work to do everywhere. 

As for comparing to NDSU, they have had very good players over the years but their system is most impressive. They develop 9-man ND high school players - particularly offensive linemen - into NFL prospects. That is where all the championships have been won. But NDSU’s skill position players have been good too. I don’t think we can ignorantly assume UND’s skill position players are equal with NDSU’s. Again, though, under Bubba, UND has been most deficient at developing offensive linemen. You can’t just recruit these players; need to develop. 

Maag and Boltmann are both good players. UND needs far more than 2 good skill position players, though, if they want to be a national contender. Hopefully Cochran steps up or one of the true freshmen surprises. Not currently sold on the running backs either (just not to my level of expectations for DI FCS football). 

[jdub27]

23 hours ago, geaux_sioux said:

Zach Vraa was for their early great teams before injuries slowed him. 

Vraa came into college with a 4.7 40yd dash. He managed to shave a few tenths off once he got into college.

Not really apples to apples comparing Maag's high school time against Vraa's time after he spent 6 (!!!!!) years in college under a pretty stellar S&C program.
Still not sure how he got that 6th year. Redshirted his freshman year, broke both collarbones his second year, then played 13, 15 and 14 games his next 3 years before being granted a 6th year. Unless there was an unreported injury his redshirt year, he got pretty lucky.

[geaux_sioux]

25 minutes ago, jdub27 said:

Vraa came into college with a 4.7 40yd dash. He managed to shave a few tenths off once he got into college.

Not really apples to apples comparing Maag's high school time against Vraa's time after he spent 6 (!!!!!) years in college under a pretty stellar S&C program.
Still not sure how he got that 6th year. Redshirted his freshman year, broke both collarbones his second year, then played 13, 15 and 14 games his next 3 years before being granted a 6th year. Unless there was an unreported injury his redshirt year, he got pretty lucky.

Pretty sure he redshirted because he broke his other collar bone as a fr. Late in his career he had lost a couple of steps. His first two years he had good speed though and would test the defense deep a few times a game.

[jdub27]

3 minutes ago, geaux_sioux said:

Pretty sure he redshirted because he broke his other collar bone as a fr. Late in his career he had lost a couple of steps. His first two years he had good speed though and would test the defense deep a few times a game.

Broke his collarbone in his first game his RS-Freshman year. It healed up and he was set to come back later in the season and broke his other one in practice the week he was supposed to come back. They both happened in the same season.

[NDSU grad]

14 minutes ago, jdub27 said:

Broke his collarbone in his first game his RS-Freshman year. It healed up and he was set to come back later in the season and broke his other one in practice the week he was supposed to come back. They both happened in the same season.

Nope. He broke his collarbone in two different seasons. In practice his true freshman season. 1st game his second season. That’s about the only way you can get a sixth year in D1.