UND and the Big Sky could go FBS

[The Sicatoka]

The long and the short of my last post: The "15k attendance" issue has been solved (precedent) already by the MAC. 

 

So, again, what's it take to be FBS?

 

Obviously you must meet FCS minimums plus (20.9.9) ...

 

1. Sponsor 16 varsity sports including football at the DI minimum requirements

2. Play 60 percent of your games against FBS opponents 

3. Meet the minimum average attendance (see above)

4a. Average 90% of FBS minimum football scholarships

4b. Provide 200 total scholarships annually to athletics

 

1. Done

2. If the whole BSC was FBS ... done

3. See above

4a. If you do it you add the scholarships -- at 90% (of 85 for FBS) it works out to be 13.5 more than the current FCS 63 ...

 

4b. Some rough accounting (I know I'll get help from resident forensic accountants, so thanks in advance) ... 

 

Sport: M + W

Football 63

Hockey 18 + 18

BB 11 + 13

 

That is 123. Knowing for Title IX you have to have about the same number of womens scholarships to balance out the 63 from football you have to figure there are at least 40 womens scholarships that I'm not listing by specifics (think: volleyball and the rest of the other 16 non-listed UND sports). So, ... let's call it 160 right now. 

 

But remember the 13.5 for football to go FBS? You also have to balance those (13.5 womens). There's at least 27. Suddenly it's at about 185-190. Do the full 85 scholarships for football and you're easily at 200. 

 

OK, so what's the issue? Honestly, a facility to claim 15k seats. 

[jdub27]

Yup. Precisely. (I'm pleased you knew and understood how that works.)

 

It's all spelled out in the 2014-15 NCAA DI Manual section 20.9.9.3. -- "Once every two years on a rolling basis, the institution shall average at least 15,000 in actual or paid attendance for all home football games." 

 

At EMU they have it set up where the EMU foundation buys enough tickets to ensure EMU Football averages 15k per home game. Per NCAA rules they can buy them at least one-third of the highest regular established ticket price as established prior to the season (20.9.9.3.1.2). 

 

At UND highest priced season ticket is $90. Let's make it bad and say that's for just five home game --> $90/5 = $18 per game. 

 

Now, let's make it bad the other way: Say it's a six home game season and you have to average 15k --> you must sell 90k tickets. Say you sell half, 7500 per game, to the public; that leaves half, or 45k of the 90k for the foundation to buy. But they can buy at just $6 per ticket (1/3 of $18!). 

 

So, 45k tickets at $6 per is $270k. I'm guessing a full scholarship these days is $13.5k -- that's 20 scholarships. Is the foundation already providing those? If so, rather than the direct gift, maybe the foundation "buys" tickets with the money. The money still goes where it needs to ... but with the extra benefit of making the attendance numbers work too. 

 

As John called it: "the Eastern Michigan model". 

 

 

PS - "Once every two years on a rolling basis ... " -- The foundation only has to do this every other year. 

 

And all that actually assumes the NCAA would start enforcing the 15k attendance rule, which I'm not so certain they have done recently.

[darell1976]

The long and the short of my last post: The "15k attendance" issue has been solved (precedent) already by the MAC. 

 

So, again, what's it take to be FBS?

 

Obviously you must meet FCS minimums plus (20.9.9) ...

 

1. Sponsor 16 varsity sports including football at the DI minimum requirements

2. Play 60 percent of your games against FBS opponents 

3. Meet the minimum average attendance (see above)

4a. Average 90% of FBS minimum football scholarships

4b. Provide 200 total scholarships annually to athletics

 

1. Done

2. If the whole BSC was FBS ... done

3. See above

4a. If you do it you add the scholarships -- at 90% (of 85 for FBS) it works out to be 13.5 more than the current FCS 63 ...

 

4b. Some rough accounting (I know I'll get help from resident forensic accountants, so thanks in advance) ... 

 

Sport: M + W

Football 63

Hockey 18 + 18

BB 11 + 13

 

That is 123. Knowing for Title IX you have to have about the same number of womens scholarships to balance out the 63 from football you have to figure there are at least 40 womens scholarships that I'm not listing by specifics (think: volleyball and the rest of the other 16 non-listed UND sports). So, ... let's call it 160 right now. 

 

But remember the 13.5 for football to go FBS? You also have to balance those (13.5 womens). There's at least 27. Suddenly it's at about 185-190. Do the full 85 scholarships for football and you're easily at 200. 

 

OK, so what's the issue? Honestly, a facility to claim 15k seats. 

Don't forget a neutral site game counts with that attendance too.  If you have UND vs NDSU at TCF Bank Stadium and UND is designated as the "home" team that 50k in attendance is counted towards that 15k minimum. 

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/eye-on-college-football/24682314/why-neutral-site-games-help-and-hurt-college-football

 

Neutral-site games allow a team to annually play seven home games, plus get a sizable neutral-site payout without losing that money another year as part of a home-and-home series.

 

[siouxfan512]

This:

 

 

It's a pipe dream right now.  But, if UND were ever to go FBS (which I seriously doubt will happen anytime soon...) this is what is needed.  

 

You want to play with the bigger boys, ya gotta cough up the bigger $$$.  Outside of hockey, I don't think UND has that mindset.  Which isn't such a bad thing.  Colorado State University is building a 43,000+ stadium on campus.  Cost will be over $250 million, which will put that university close to $1,000,000,000 in construction debt (Provided that they don't raise the money immediately for the construction cost of the stadium. Which, they won't.)  Yes that is one BILLION in overall construction debt.  

 

http://www.coloradoan.com/story/sports/2014/06/22/can-csu-afford-borrow-build-stadium/11231863/

 

Tuition costs at CSU are going through the roof. Somehow, they are gaining in students.  They will be at 40,000 students in the next 5 years...unless it all comes crashing down around them.  Between the population increase in Colorado and marketing the university to out of state students, they'll probably get there.  But, at what cost?  

 

I think I'd rather see UND stay in an FCS Big Sky Conference than go to a lower tier FBS conference.  Just my $.02.  

Having a stadium like that on campus would be amazing though, I'll be happy to make my donation once that lotto ticket hits.

[siouxfan512]

And the NCAA is going to give Big Sky members what 15 to 20 years to comply with the attendance requirements of FBS?

 

Exactly how are Kelley and Faison going to be able to convince the City or State to give them $150 to $200 million for a stadium so they can go FBS when their 12,000 seat stadium is half empty right now? UND football does not have a supply problem, they have a major demand problem.

 

Agreed, they do have a deman problem, and fixing that starts with winning; which hopefully Bubba can do in the next couple years. I remember when I started at UND in 2003 and the place was pretty packed; sad to see how far that program has dropped. It would be a huge benefit to bring the games back on campus though, right where memorial stadium is now. Tailgaiting and attendance would definitely spike with the students.

[darell1976]

Teams that didn't make the 15k requirement

 

2013:  Central Michigan, Eastern Michigan, Florida Atlantic, Idaho, UAB,

2014: Florida Atlantic, Northern Illinois, Kent State, Charlotte, Idaho, New Mexico St, Florida International, Ball State, Akron

 

So should FAU, and Idaho go on the naughty list?  Eastern Michigan averaged 15,025 this season after just 4051 in 2013...how did they average 11,000 more fans in 1 season with identical 2-10 seasons? The EMU rule. 

[The Sicatoka]

Teams that didn't make the 15k requirement

 

2013:  Central Michigan, Eastern Michigan, Florida Atlantic, Idaho, UAB,

2014: Florida Atlantic, Northern Illinois, Kent State, Charlotte, Idaho, New Mexico St, Florida International, Ball State, Akron

 

So should FAU, and Idaho go on the naughty list?  Eastern Michigan averaged 15,025 this season after just 4051 in 2013...how did they average 11,000 more fans in 1 season with identical 2-10 seasons? The EMU rule. 

 

Guess what all the teams in red have in common. 

[darell1976]

Agreed, they do have a deman problem, and fixing that starts with winning; which hopefully Bubba can do in the next couple years. I remember when I started at UND in 2003 and the place was pretty packed; sad to see how far that program has dropped. It would be a huge benefit to bring the games back on campus though, right where memorial stadium is now. Tailgaiting and attendance would definitely spike with the students.

UND averaged 10,167 in 2008 (Muss's first year and hope for a great transition), UND averaged 7486 last season. We have a huge mountain to climb to get a lot of fans back in the seats.  South Dakota had 84.09% of their dome filled, compared to 60.94% for UND.

 

http://stats.ncaa.org/rankings/change_sport_year_div

[darell1976]

Guess what all the teams in red have in common. 

Ohio, Buffalo, and Toledo are the only MAC teams that had a higher average than NDSU.

[mksioux]

We've  been through this many times.  For the last time:  UND can remodel Memorial to 20,000 and play late season games at the Alerus.  UND and all the Big Sky teams will need to average 15,000 in the second season in transition.  UND's Foundation could, if needed, buy tickets to average 15,001 at 1/3 rd the price  (three games at Memorial at 20k and two games at the Alerus would only have to average 7.5 k to get to an average of 15,001).  The NCAA accepts that and would certify UND FBS if the scheduling, scholarships,and  the sports requirements are met   UND almost meets the scholarship requirement now for other sports and has more then the 16 sports required  right now.  Most Big Sky and FCS schools only have 14 or 15 sports (except the California ones). 

 

The Big Sky is one of the few FCS conference that has enough full members to get eight through a transition (seven for the Big Sky because of Idaho) to qualify as an FBS conference.  The NCAA almost certainly won't allow individual schools to pursue FBS unless their sponsored by a conference.  NDSU will have to join the Big Sky to go FBS.  When NDSU joins the Big Sky, everybody in Fargo will praise the NCAA and the Big Sky once again.

Other than getting the NCAA's consent, the biggest obstacle to your plan is how UND is going to come up with the money to remodel Memorial.  After years of trying, UND hasn't even been able to raise the funds to start Phase II of the IPF.  Unless there is an Engelstad-like benefactor out there, I don't see it happening any time in the foreseeable future. 

[nd1sufan]

They'd have their foundations buy enough tickets to get to the minimum is what he is saying. It's the Eastern Michigan model. The rule let's tickets sold count.

I'm not involved in the NCAA so I don't know if it is something they would ever let happen.

I think it's a dumb idea to go FBS with the intention of using sponsors or foundations to get to the minimum but if that's an avenue that is available and some schools choose to pursue it, that's their prerogative.

So you can fool the NCAA but telling them you sold 15,000 seats in a 12,000 seat stadium? I guess the NCAA is stupid.  

 

The 50,000 fans for a "Neutral site" game at TCF Bank stadium won't happen. NDSU wouldn't agree to it.   

[JohnboyND7]

So you can fool the NCAA but telling them you sold 15,000 seats in a 12,000 seat stadium? I guess the NCAA is stupid.

The 50,000 fans for a "Neutral site" game at TCF Bank stadium won't happen. NDSU wouldn't agree to it.

I believe he said they would need a different stadium(remodeled one near campus) in place for the move.

I don't think it'll happen. He seems pretty confident in it, most other folks are very skeptical.

And if UND was FBS, and asked NDSU to play a neutral site game while NDSU was FCS, I think it'd be silly to turn down. That'd be a way bigger coup than getting them to go to Fargo twice while both schools are fcs.

Again, I don't see any of this happening. But I'm a 22 year old with zero control over any of that.

[darell1976]

So you can fool the NCAA but telling them you sold 15,000 seats in a 12,000 seat stadium? I guess the NCAA is stupid.

The 50,000 fans for a "Neutral site" game at TCF Bank stadium won't happen. NDSU wouldn't agree to it.

It's called an example. Don't worry I am sure if UND was FBS looking for a neutral site game we can find a better FBS opponent than NDSU.

[jdub27]

The 50,000 fans for a "Neutral site" game at TCF Bank stadium won't happen. NDSU wouldn't agree to it.   

You might be correct.  But over the past couple years, I've heard a lot of things that NDSU supposedly wouldn't do with their schedule or what the supposed requirements were from NDSU fans and then watched the athletic department do something that doesn't follow that. 

[zonadub]

You might be correct.  But over the past couple years, I've heard a lot of things that NDSU supposedly wouldn't do with their schedule or what the supposed requirements were from NDSU fans and then watched the athletic department do something that doesn't follow that.

And Taylor and Bohl have both moved on

[SiouxVolley]

The REA has the capability to bond, as has been talked about numerous times.

 

New offices and workout rooms for Phase II do not create a sustaining basis for cash flow.  A new stadium does, with tickets, advertising, and concessions.

 

UND just needs to get to 18,000 at Memorial, or get city approval to expand the Alerus to 15,000, which would likely be much more expensive and politically difficult to pull off.

[UNDColorado]

The REA has the capability to bond, as has been talked about numerous times.

 

New offices and workout rooms for Phase II do not create a sustaining basis for cash flow.  A new stadium does, with tickets, advertising, and concessions.

 

UND just needs to get to 18,000 at Memorial, or get city approval to expand the Alerus to 15,000, which would likely be much more expensive and politically difficult to pull off.

 

Who actually designed the Alerus, and why would they design it in a way that is nearly impossible to expand? Extremely shortsighted IMHO.

 

The Al is a nice facility but it has no future. 

 

Edit: add in a couple skylights to get some natural light in there. This would go a long way in improving atmosphere.

[jdub27]

The REA has the capability to bond, as has been talked about numerous times.

 

New offices and workout rooms for Phase II do not create a sustaining basis for cash flow.  A new stadium does, with tickets, advertising, and concessions.

 

UND just needs to get to 18,000 at Memorial, or get city approval to expand the Alerus to 15,000, which would likely be much more expensive and politically difficult to pull off.

Unless they made it so expansion was possible and simple for the future, renovating for 18,000 at Memorial would be a colossal waste of money.  I know that numbers right now are nowhere near that demand and having a half empty stadium doesn't look good but it would be a giant waste to spend that much money on that few of seats.

[mksioux]

The REA has the capability to bond, as has been talked about numerous times.

 

It may have been talked about several times, but I don't remember the specifics of how it would work.  How does REA issue bonds to pay for the renovation and expansion of a building it doesn't own on property it doesn't own?  I'm certainly not a bonding expert, so the explanation is not clear to me.

[Hayduke]

The REA has the capability to bond, as has been talked about numerous times.

 

New offices and workout rooms for Phase II do not create a sustaining basis for cash flow.  A new stadium does, with tickets, advertising, and concessions.

 

UND just needs to get to 18,000 at Memorial, or get city approval to expand the Alerus to 15,000, which would likely be much more expensive and politically difficult to pull off.

 

It's got to be indoors.  It's going to be expensive.  There are no "cheap" options.  *IF* it would happen, go big...or don't bother. 

[Cratter]

It may have been talked about several times, but I don't remember the specifics of how it would work.  How does REA issue bonds to pay for the renovation and expansion of a building it doesn't own on property it doesn't own?  I'm certainly not a bonding expert, so the explanation is not clear to me.

 

I don't believe the Ralph currently owns the land its building sits on right now anyways.

 

Couldn't UND sell Memorial to REA for a $1?

 

What's the Ralphs next major project? They build the betty and remodeled the locker rooms. Maybe they could chip in for Phase 2 next. But we know that would never happen.

[SiouxVolley]

It may have been talked about several times, but I don't remember the specifics of how it would work.  How does REA issue bonds to pay for the renovation and expansion of a building it doesn't own on property it doesn't own?  I'm certainly not a bonding expert, so the explanation is not clear to me.

The REA bonded the Betty and there are still paying for it.  For Memorial, they could lease the land much like they have a long-term lease on the Bronson property where the Ralph is. 

[mksioux]

The REA bonded the Betty and there are still paying for it.  For Memorial, they could lease the land much like they have a long-term lease on the Bronson property where the Ralph is. 

Is there any appetite on the REA board to do such a thing?  

 

Would UND want to enter into a long-term lease with REA on Memorial, effectively losing control of it?

 

What sort of approvals from the State would be required to accomplish it?

[SiouxVolley]

Is there any appetite on the REA board to do such a thing?  

 

Would UND want to enter into a long-term lease with REA on Memorial, effectively losing control of it?

 

What sort of approvals from the State would be required to accomplish it?

Hockey knows it has to attach itself to an FBS program, otherwise hockey can be left out of a higher NCAA level.  As simple as that.  It is in hockey's best interest to be at a higher football level than we are now.

 

Why would UND make an issue about losing control of Memorial, when it doesn't make them any money now, but could in the future when the REA Trust is given to them?

 

The same approvals would be required from the state when the REA trust acquired a long-term lease on the Bronson property.

 

If another major donation becomes available or if its financed by the REA, it would likely be a trust ownership no matter where it is coming from.. 

[nodak651]

Hockey knows it has to attach itself to an FBS program, otherwise hockey can be left out of a higher NCAA level.  As simple as that.  It is in hockey's best interest to be at a higher football level than we are now.

 

 

LOL I really hope you aren't serious.  And can you please put "I think" before everything you type?  It's really annoying when you try to pass everything off as fact.