Kelley to resume retirement process

[Teeder11]

Let me get this straight. The individuals on this board who felt that the law would do nothing to influence the NCAA, and felt that the name needed to be dropped in order to get a majority of our athletic teams into a conference, are the reason that we now need to change the name? Do you honestly believe that? You think if everyone fired away emails to the NCAA they would think "hmmm, all these UND fans really care for the name - maybe we should rethink this legal document that was agreed to and just give them a pass"?

I know you won't believe it, but I bet I love the nickname just as much as you do. But as I've stated before, deep down I care way more (and it's not even close) about the university as a whole, and feel that having strong athletic teams (which a conference home such as the Big Sky will hopefully help us achieve) will do much more to further the strength of the university than fans being able to yell "Go Sioux" at sporting events or having a sweet logo on our jerseys will. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but just because some of us don't agree with yours doesn't mean that we are the biggest reason for what's going on right now.

You aptly summed up the feelings of many of us on this board who have cheered our hearts out for the Sioux since our earliest memories but who also love this University and ALL it stands for so much that we are willing to let something that is so dear go so that the greater whole might survive and flourish.

[jodcon]

So will the NDSBoHE go ahead and retire the name with or without the support of the legislature?

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think they can without having the 'nickname law' repealed, they don't have that power. In the (highly) unlikely event that Carlson is correct and there is enough support for the law and it is NOT repealed, I think the SBHE's hands would be tied and we would be legally bound to stay the Fighting Sioux forever unless they again revisited the law and changed it down the road.

But the odds of that scenario playing out now seem almost astronomical to me.

[sioux rube]

Maybe it's time to contact Spirit Lake & show them support

admin@spiritlakenation.com

http://www.spiritlakenation.com/

Obviously the NCAA can't understand anything but Lawsuits & Settlements

Sent them an email. thanks for the info.

[fightingsioux4life]

If Rep. Al Carlson (NDSU-Fargo) contributes to the nickname law being upheld, I will hold him 100% responsible for the total and complete destruction of UND athletics forever and ever. It will be like SMU football's death penalty in the 1980's, except it will affect every sport at the same time. No conference home (sorry star2city, but I don't think the BSC is bluffing), a long list of schools that won't play us, ect. Life as a Division I Independent with a long list of school that won't play us will leave the athletic department swimming in an ocean of red ink. You won't be able to sell enough beer at REA to cover that tab. Even if you care about Men's Hockey and nothing else, you must recognize that this scenario will drag down that program along with all the others. And dumping all our other sports except hockey isn't an option under NCAA rules. If this law isn't repealed and the name not retired, we might as well not have an athletic department at all. And that would harm UND as an institution for years and years.

If you care about UND, you'll e-mail everyone in the State Legislature (especially Clueless Al) and tell them that they can do the right think and repeal the name or watch as we contribute to their political opponents in the next election. The stakes in this are very high. We had better make the right choices or we'll be talking about the good old days of UND athletics in the past tense. Forever.

[WYOBISONMAN]

This is not a partisan issue at all. It is about damn near the entire legislature and the Governor acting stupid and passing this law that has actually hurt UND and been a huge distraction for an athletic department trying to move to DI. Partisan issues are garbage like the federal debt ceiling.

As for the SBOHE, I wouldn't think they could go contrary to law and dump the name until this is repealed. I would doubt that there would be anything other than token opposition to repealing the law in November. It has become evident, even to the most thick headed legislators (seemingly most of them) that this law will destroy athletics at UND.

[MplsBison]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think they can without having the 'nickname law' repealed, they don't have that power. In the (highly) unlikely event that Carlson is correct and there is enough support for the law and it is NOT repealed, I think the SBHE's hands would be tied and we would be legally bound to stay the Fighting Sioux forever unless they again revisited the law and changed it down the road.

But the odds of that scenario playing out now seem almost astronomical to me.

But is that actually true? Does the law physically prohibit the SBoHE from instructing UND to retire the nickname or would it just cause them to be subject to a penalty? What if they just went ahead and did it anyway?

Would Carlson demand that the ND state police arrest the SBoHE and Kelley? Would he demand that the state attorney file a restraining order that would legally stop the school from retiring the nickname?

[iramurphy]

But is that actually true? Does the law physically prohibit the SBoHE from instructing UND to retire the nickname or would it just cause them to be subject to a penalty? What if they just went ahead and did it anyway?

Would Carlson demand that the ND state police arrest the SBoHE and Kelley? Would he demand that the state attorney file a restraining order that would legally stop the school from retiring the nickname?

Carlson has no authority to demand these folks be arrested. The SBoHE did what needed to be done. There seems to be evidence that the legislature didn't have the constitutional authority to pass the law in the first place, but I think this is Carlson just trying to keep his name in the media for awhile longer. UND will retire the name and nothing will happen to either SBoHE members or UND officials. The SBoHE, out of respect for the legislature, has worded their intructions to UND such that UND will resume the process of retiring the name without actually raising the issue of whether or not they are "breaking" the law. Don't forget, the meeting with the NCAA and everything else the Governor, Attorney General, and the others did could have happened without passing this legislation. All the legislation did was tie the hands of UND and the SBoHE. What happened at the NCAA meeting was what Kelly and Faison had warned would happen when they testified before the law was passed.

[The Sicatoka]

As I pointed out when the law passed, I don't see a penalty for violation (other than political).

[Goon]

Carlson has no authority to demand these folks be arrested. The SBoHE did what needed to be done. There seems to be evidence that the legislature didn't have the constitutional authority to pass the law in the first place, but I think this is Carlson just trying to keep his name in the media for awhile longer. UND will retire the name and nothing will happen to either SBoHE members or UND officials.

This is where you would probably have a constitutional challenge...

[ScottM]

There are no criminal penalties or private rights of action in Carlson's law. The Board could just decide to disregard the law, retire the name and wait to see what might happen. I'm not sure anybody has the stomach for a consitutional fight on this law, and I'm pretty certain the law would be bounced by a court anyway. Conceivably, the only person who has any "enforcement" obligation is the AG, and it's more discretionary than mandatory as it relates to determining if the NC$$ could be sued. As I noted previously, the AG is hopelessly conficted in this matter, and his silence may be a testament to that conflict.

[Goon]

There are no criminal penalties or private rights of action in Carlson's law. The Board could just decide to disregard the law, retire the name and wait to see what might happen. I'm not sure anybody has the stomach for a consitutional fight on this law, and I'm pretty certain the law would be bounced by a court anyway. Conceivably, the only person who has any "enforcement" obligation is the AG, and it's more discretionary than mandatory as it relates to determining if the NC$$ could be sued. As I noted previously, the AG is hopelessly conficted in this matter, and his silence may be a testament to that conflict.

So basically were not going to have to worry about being accepted or kicked out of the BSC then?

Edited August 18, 2011 by Goon

[ScottM]

So basically were not going to have to worry about being accepted or kicked out of the BSC then?

No, the board will have to "man up" and first retire the name/logo to avoid the NC$$ sanctions, and possible denial of the BSC membership. Let Clueless Al try to "enforce" his own law, on his own dime.

[Fetch]

So if Spirit Lake Sued & won or got a settlement what could it be ?

[Chewey]

So if Spirit Lake Sued & won or got a settlement what could it be ?

It certainly would not look good for the NCAA. One of the tribes for whom the policy was enacted to "protect" and "provide a voice" actually sues the NCAA for not being allowed to have that voice and for being treated differently than other tribes who wish to sponsor schools. If the name is retired, as per the terms of the surrender agreement, choose "Spirit Lake Sioux." The language of the surrender agreement makes reference to retiring "its nickname" and "current nickname" and "Fighting Sioux." Conceivably, UND could just choose "Spirit Lake Sioux" or even "Sioux" and, as long as there is the sponsorship of one tribe, not violate "the policy." The language is limited and vague and seems clear to me that only "Fighting Sioux" is at issue. Also, I think it's fairly clear in the language that UND must transition to a new nickname and logo. Seriously, it seems to me that there is something here. New nickname that is not "Fighting Sioux", new set of circumstances.

[CMSioux]

The problem is the anti-nickname group has never been primarily native americans it's been the liberal leftys and they will never go away -they have learned the minority can outlast the majority.

I can't imagine how ugly it would get at the mere suggestion of using Spirit lake Sioux. Even with the support of the Spirit Lake Sioux you would have the same group getting the media attention and I think we've seen that tribal governments can change their minds so a few years down the road with a different council we could be looking at the same issue all over again.

My belief might be obvious by my postings and moniker but I see no reason why the spirt and history of the Fighting Sioux can't live on - at least for historical purposes. I do believe that once a new nickname is chosen the upcoming generations of students will move away from the Fighting Sioux but who knows perhaps there always will be a group of students on campus that pick up the baton and preserve the spirit.

[siouxu31]

The problem is the anti-nickname group has never been primarily native americans it's been the liberal leftys and they will never go away -they have learned the minority can outlast the majority.

I can't imagine how ugly it would get at the mere suggestion of using Spirit lake Sioux. Even with the support of the Spirit Lake Sioux you would have the same group getting the media attention and I think we've seen that tribal governments can change their minds so a few years down the road with a different council we could be looking at the same issue all over again.

My belief might be obvious by my postings and moniker but I see no reason why the spirt and history of the Fighting Sioux can't live on - at least for historical purposes. I do believe that once a new nickname is chosen the upcoming generations of students will move away from the Fighting Sioux but who knows perhaps there always will be a group of students on campus that pick up the baton and preserve the spirit.

All you people that think that Kelley and the University would even consider going down that road and using the nickname "Spirit Lake Sioux," after this whole drawn out debacle, need to have your heads examined. I can't believe some of this stuff that I read on here. Its downright laughable at times.

[GeauxSioux]

All you people that think that Kelley and the University would even consider going down that road and using the nickname "Spirit Lake Sioux," after this whole drawn out debacle, need to have your heads examined. I can't believe some of this stuff that I read on here. Its downright laughable at times.

I stirred that pot a little and you're right there is no way that Sioux will be in the name. When young Mr. Davidson from Spirit Lake passed away last week and his grandmother is a huge Fighting Sioux supporter, I was thinking that Spirit Lake Sioux would be a nice tribute to those who supported the Fighting Sioux name.

I'm not so sure that Spirit may not be part of the new nickname.

[iramurphy]

This is where you would probably have a constitutional challenge...

I would agree

[yababy8]

It's the media's job to do those interviews, but they seem to refuse - trusting Kelley every step of the way.

Investigative interviews?

In case you have not been keeping up on current events, that is about as arcane a concept to employees of the main stream media as churning butter is to me..

The media is nothing but than a remote communications medium controlled by peolpe you and I don't know but Myles Brand would call brotheren..

[The Sicatoka]

Investigative interviews?

In case you have not been keeping up on current events, that is about as arcane a concept to employees of the main stream media as churning butter is to me..

The media is nothing but than a remote communications medium controlled by peolpe you and I don't know but Myles Brand would call brotheren..

To most of today's reporters "digging for a story" means going through the pile of papers by the fax machine (and then transcribing someone's press release into a "news story").

[southpaw]

To most of today's reporters "digging for a story" means going through the pile of papers by the fax machine (and then transcribing someone's press release into a "news story").

That's crap. Most of today's reporters aren't given the time to work on a story that involves "digging." Stations and newspapers are so understaffed that reporters and photographers work their asses off just to get enough for one day's show or newspaper. They are so swamped with daily work that they don't have time for the in-depth stories. It's not just asking a tough question or two like many of you seem to think. There are tons of legal ramifications for publishing or airing a story that some may see as questionable. In addition, while the reporter may ask the tough questions, there is nothing that says the interviewee has to answer those questions.

[The Sicatoka]

I had to deal with media in the not so distant past. They didn't do any legwork. (Heck, I had to explain to them what the "North Dakota Century Code" was. Seriously.) They fully bought and believed whatever pablum the last person that talked to them told them. And once I realized that I fully used that to my advantage.

Now, is it a staffing issue? Maybe. I don't know. But you are measured by results and I'm not seeing results that say "dug into tough story". I guess I'd rather have one in-depth story than 10 stories about "Mrs. Fuddernutter's third grade class working on a going away project for the retiring principal" and similar fluff that all too often shows up as local (print, radio, or TV) "news".

[southpaw]

I had to deal with media in the not so distant past. They didn't do any legwork. (Heck, I had to explain to them what the "North Dakota Century Code" was. Seriously.) They fully bought and believed whatever pablum the last person that talked to them told them. And once I realized that I fully used that to my advantage.

Now, is it a staffing issue? Maybe. I don't know. But you are measured by results and I'm not seeing results that say "dug into tough story". I guess I'd rather have one in-depth story than 10 stories about "Mrs. Fuddernutter's third grade class working on a going away project for the retiring principal" and similar fluff that all too often shows up as local (print, radio, or TV) "news".

Congrats on "dealing" with the media. Also, thank you for explaining the ND Century Code to every member of the media. Oh wait... you didn't. However, you just lumped every journalist in North Dakota into one giant group by calling them "the media." Of course, there are idiot journalists... but there are idiots in every profession. I truly hope you don't judge every reporter the way your post indicates.

I'm sure lots of people would like that in-depth news story more than 10 feel-good stories. However, the two are nowhere close to the amount of time it takes to put together. Just for TV's sake, because that's where I have my experience, one of the feature stories will take about an hour to shoot, write and edit one version. 2 reporters could do those 10 feature stories in one day, no problem. And most do.

To do a properly researched in-depth story takes WAY more than two reporters working a 10 hour day. Most in-depth stories (look for them, because they are there. They may just not be the topic you want covered) take a reporter a solid week of working on a story to put together. One reporter, doing one story for an entire week isn't going to help the station stay in business. They may get a couple hours here and there to work on the story, but still have all of the daily stories they must do. That means it's going to take 2-3 weeks to put together a more in-depth story.

Often times, a reporter will want to do an investigative piece, however a journalist relies on other people for information. Journalists need sources and not all sources are willing to talk. Especially, on very touchy subjects. Those sources that are willing to talk may have an agenda, they may be too busy for an interview for a few days, or may not want to answer specific questions. All of those things are out of the journalists hands. If someone doesn't want to answer a question, they don't have to. Does that mean the journalist didn't ask the question? No, but of course that's what everyone assumes.

A lot of things have to fall in to place for a well-done in-depth story to make it to the air or newspaper. Just because national publications and broadcasts can do it, doesn't mean local reporters can. They most often don't have the skill and more importantly, they don't have the resources.

[MplsBison]

I stirred that pot a little and you're right there is no way that Sioux will be in the name. When young Mr. Davidson from Spirit Lake passed away last week and his grandmother is a huge Fighting Sioux supporter, I was thinking that Spirit Lake Sioux would be a nice tribute to those who supported the Fighting Sioux name.

I'm not so sure that Spirit may not be part of the new nickname.

Hmm...Spirit is not a half bad nickname itself. The UND Spirit.

It could be a way of honoring the Spirit Lake Sioux and their efforts to keep the Sioux nickname as well as the spirit of all the UND alumni who fought the good fight against the NCAA.

[yababy8]

The fact that under staffing is the reason media outposts don't conduct investigative reporting is absolutely irrelevant to my point.

If I owned all the media, (see Murdoch and Redsone), and I wanted to control messaging and content, the first thing I would do is centralize where news is generated.

Ie local news media would get staff cuts square in the notepad and pencil department.

Now what we have is one canned storyline that is identically printed from sea to shining sea. And they are rife with agenda which is neither liberal nor conservative as a rule but always representative of power and money.