FCS Playoffs

[zonadub]

17 minutes ago, nodak651 said:

I filed a FOIA for UND's bids back in 2019.  Below are UND's bids for each round.  I didn't publicly post them because I didn't want other schools to see what UND was bidding, but it doesn't seem to matter and the schools probably know anyway.  And they can easily file FOIA's themselves.  Again, these are from 2019.  Pretty sure the "bid" is on the last page, #9, titled "guarantee", which was 75K for the first round in 2019.

UND NCAA First Round Budget.pdf 17.08 kB · 11 downloads UND NCAA Second Round Budget.pdf 17.06 kB · 5 downloads UND NCAA Quarterfinal Budget.pdf 17.06 kB · 2 downloads UND NCAA Semifinal Budget.pdf 17.01 kB · 5 downloads

So, 70% higher than $75,000 is $125,000 for a first round bid.

[nodak651]

1 minute ago, zonadub said:

So, 70% higher than $75,000 is $125,000 for a first round bid.

That's what I'm thinking.  Given that UND has a 4-5 million dollar football budget, you would think they wouldn't be so worried about breaking even for a playoff game.  Given that the Canad is also connected to the Alerus center, and that a home game would bring visitors to the city, I'm curious if the Alerus Center and City still require UND to pay rent for hosting playoff games, because the economic impact of a home playoff game would more than make up for waived rental fees at the Alerus, one might think.  And it IS a city owned venue.  

[nodakvindy]

4 hours ago, mn_sioux said:

2021 football season average  attendance numbers per game.

North Dakota    9,661

Weber St.    6,404

They must be flush with big money!

Maybe the conference supported all their schools bids with some of their tv money. 

[nodak651]

26 minutes ago, nodak651 said:

That's what I'm thinking.  Given that UND has a 4-5 million dollar football budget, you would think they wouldn't be so worried about breaking even for a playoff game.  Given that the Canad is also connected to the Alerus center, and that a home game would bring visitors to the city, I'm curious if the Alerus Center and City still require UND to pay rent for hosting playoff games, because the economic impact of a home playoff game would more than make up for waived rental fees at the Alerus, one might think.  And it IS a city owned venue.  

Kinda found and answer for Alerus rent.  It's negotiable for playoff games.  The 2019 playoff bid showed a budgeted rental fee of $32,000 (zero discount).  Not sure what was "negotiated" for this year.  Edit:  This (below) is from the UND/Alerus usage agreement for 2020 and 2021, not sure what the language said for 2019, so this may or may not have been a change after UND didn't win the 2019 bid.  

[bincitysioux]

$125,000-ish..........

Sounds like a decent amount on the surface.  But if outbid by a school that draws just 2/3 what we do on average, makes me think our AD doesn't know what a "competitive" bid is.

I really don't know why I'm so bent about this, because I know with this defense this team isn't going far this year, although I would love to be proven wrong.  But for crying out loud we should be able to out bid Weber State!  And now way in hades should we have been outbid by something called Nicholls St in 2019.

Strange how there always seems to be enough money lying around to ensure that the hockey team is playing its NCAA games in Fargo every other year.

[Cratter]

6 hours ago, Cratter said:

$25 x 7,000 = $175,000.

I'm sure every teams fans that lost the bid is complaining right now.

It's basically asking "how much money can we afford to lose" for most bidding teams.

$175,000 - $125,000 to NCAA minus $30,000 to rent Alerus.

= $20,000 

And that was a losing bid for one of the highest attended FCS teams.

[nodak651]

2 hours ago, Cratter said:

$175,000 - $125,000 to NCAA minus $30,000 to rent Alerus.

= $20,000 

And that was a losing bid for one of the highest attended FCS teams.

I'm genuinely asking, what point are you trying to make?  I feel like you're saying UND shouldn't make a bid that they can't recover the costs on?  Is that correct?  

UND spends millions on the full allotment of scholarships, FCOA, charter flights, etc.   WHY??  I think they do it in an effort to make deep playoff runs, right?  Please correct me if I'm wrong.  If not, spending 50k for a home playoff game seems like a bargain to me.  Disregard how much better UND plays at home vs away, 50K is probably worth it for the economic impact, recruiting (ability to point to home playoff games), and just the added hype around town for the program... home playoff games are a huge opportunity to engage casual fans, and improve or build fan support, which can help to drive ticket sales and donations in future years.  UND misses on all of that for only what, 10, 20, 50K?  Not worth it to bid cheap... we get what we pay for.  

By being willing to spend 50K and using your numbers, I believe that would bring the bid up to $195,000 (125K + 20K + 50K = 195K)(175K - 195K -30Kalerus = -50K.  Still worth it imo.  Pennies compared to UND's FB budget.  Literally like a tenth of one percent of the overall FB budget.  And that assumes the Alerus still charges normal rent, and it doesn't include any other revenue such as concessions.

[Cratter]

1 hour ago, nodak651 said:

I'm genuinely asking, what point are you trying to make?

You can read it and come to any point you wish.

But mainly they were pointed out clearly:

4 hours ago, Cratter said:

I'm sure every teams fans that lost the bid is complaining right now.

It's basically asking "how much money can we afford to lose" for most bidding teams.

Your points are what every fan base is saying. 

"We should have bid more!" 

So next year UND bids $250,000

And then the next year after Weber bids $300,000.

(which is clearly already happening with UND increasing its bid massively and still losing.)

[nodak651]

1 hour ago, Cratter said:

You can read it and come to any point you wish.

But mainly they were pointed out clearly:

Your points are what every fan base is saying. 

"We should have bid more!" 

So next year UND bids $250,000

And then the next year after Weber bids $300,000.

(which is clearly already happening with UND increasing its bid massively and still losing.)

Should UND not have bid more?  Why?

The only time UND hosted a playoff game, attendance was 9,837 rather than 7K.

[nodak651]

Chaves on radio now... sounds like he thinks und had highest bid and Weber is hosting potentially based on other criteria.

[UND1983]

Just now, nodak651 said:

Chaves on radio now... sounds like he thinks und had highest bid and Weber is hosting potentially based on other criteria.

Please report back when done

[UND-FB-FAN]

10 hours ago, bincitysioux said:

$125,000-ish..........

Sounds like a decent amount on the surface.  But if outbid by a school that draws just 2/3 what we do on average, makes me think our AD doesn't know what a "competitive" bid is.

I really don't know why I'm so bent about this, because I know with this defense this team isn't going far this year, although I would love to be proven wrong.  But for crying out loud we should be able to out bid Weber State!  And now way in hades should we have been outbid by something called Nicholls St in 2019.

Strange how there always seems to be enough money lying around to ensure that the hockey team is playing its NCAA games in Fargo every other year.

I completely agree with you. It shouldn’t take multiple failed attempts and the program’s fans to produce a more thought out plan to host playoff games.

two major issues are:

1) home playoff games are important to the team’s success and the fans (ie look at home record vs away)

2) the athletic department obviously didn’t care enough to put thought and resources into football … again 

[wheelsup]

26 minutes ago, nodak651 said:

Chaves on radio now... sounds like he thinks und had highest bid and Weber is hosting potentially based on other criteria.

This is why all of this should be public and transparent.

[Cratter]

5 hours ago, nodak651 said:

Should UND not have bid more?  Why?

Lol.

Of course UND should bid more. I'm sure Chaves will.

Until they get it!

And then weber will just bid more the time after that!

So what's a realistic expection: 50% success rate?

[Cratter]

6 minutes ago, wheelsup said:

This is why all of this should be public and transparent.

After back to back losses of not hosting, maybe the committee just don't like UND?

[wheelsup]

1 minute ago, Cratter said:

After back to back losses of not hosting, maybe the committee just don't like UND?

I refuse to believe UND cant outbid Weber State and also cant outbid Nichols state. 

• If we actually arent outbidding schools like that then Chaves should be fired. 
• If Chaves doesnt understand how important having home playoff games are to building the overall program then he shouldnt be the AD
• If its something other than money and its "other criteria" then Chaves also has to get his !@#$ together.. this is crap.

I would totally understand being outbid by Montana, Montana St and some of the other heavyweights.. but the last two we have lost the bid to.. give me a break!  If our goal is to be a top FCS football program then you have to be able to outbid the Nichols State and Weber State's of the world..  If our goal is to be mediocre.. 

By the way.. Im still excited about the playoff game

[petey23]

57 minutes ago, nodak651 said:

Chaves on radio now... sounds like he thinks und had highest bid and Weber is hosting potentially based on other criteria.

Criteria being that Weber should have been the #6 seed but they had to appease the East Coast teams so they will give them a home game.

[jdub27]

33 minutes ago, wheelsup said:

I refuse to believe UND cant outbid Weber State and also cant outbid Nichols state. 

• If we actually arent outbidding schools like that then Chaves should be fired. 
• If Chaves doesnt understand how important having home playoff games are to building the overall program then he shouldnt be the AD
• If its something other than money and its "other criteria" then Chaves also has to get his !@#$ together.. this is crap.

I would totally understand being outbid by Montana, Montana St and some of the other heavyweights.. but the last two we have lost the bid to.. give me a break!  If our goal is to be a top FCS football program then you have to be able to outbid the Nichols State and Weber State's of the world..  If our goal is to be mediocre.. 

By the way.. Im still excited about the playoff game

Nicholls got a bunch of money from the conference that they previous hadn't and their bid was significantly beyond what they would historically bid. That was bad luck. UND's bid was more than competitive. Despite that, everyone understands the importance of a home game. Which is why UND likely had the 2nd highest bid this time around.
The problem is "other criteria" is out of anyone's hands when its a group of AD's making a room and have no one to answer. Guidelines are tossed out the window. Like what if the committee didn't want to have 5 western teams seeded (MVFC/Big Sky) but decided that to offset that, they'd just make sure the team who probably deserved to be seeded got a home game in the first round?
 

[Walsh Hall]

The money needs to come from boosters.  There isn't 200k sitting around at the end of the year to cut a check. I have no idea what arrangements Chaves tried to make, but I'd imagine a school would want to have the money lined up well in advance in case it's needed.

 

Feel free to contact Chaves and guarantee a pledge for next year's playoffs for 50K, 20K, or even 10K to get that bid started.  I'm sure the program would greatly appreciate it.

[UND1983]

9 minutes ago, Walsh Hall said:

The money needs to come from boosters.  There isn't 200k sitting around at the end of the year to cut a check. I have no idea what arrangements Chaves tried to make, but I'd imagine a school would want to have the money lined up well in advance in case it's needed.

 

Feel free to contact Chaves and guarantee a pledge for next year's playoffs for 50K, 20K, or even 10K to get that bid started.  I'm sure the program would greatly appreciate it.

But apparently money wasn't the issue - so what was this time?  

[wheelsup]

3 minutes ago, jdub27 said:

Nicholls got a bunch of money from the conference that they previous hadn't and their bid was significantly beyond what they would historically bid. That was bad luck.
Everyone understands the importance of a home game. Which is why UND likely had the 2nd highest bid.
The problem is "other criteria" is out of anyone's hands when its a group of AD's making a room and have no one to answer. Guidelines are tossed out the window.
 

so here are the reasons I have heard..

• Nichols got a bunch of money from their conference.. Doesnt the MVFC give some money?  Seems like an odd excuse
• Weber state got the home game because the "should" have been seeded.

Both of those reasons sound like crap to me and just more reasons for us to be ok with a mediocre effort on our part.  I dont think we are nearly as unlucky as people would try to say to somehow take the spotlight off a failure by the AD to get a home playoff game.  I would hate to hear the excuses that would come out if we were matched up with a school that actually had money to bid.. instead we are left with conjecture about back room deals and somehow trying to justify losing to a school without locker rooms and another school that doesnt match our attendance.

I dont know why Im so annoyed by this.. but this is the second year we have had a good opportunity to help change the trajectory of the program and host some home playoff games.  Im not a hockey versus other sports guy.. but we roll out the red carpet for the hockey team in vegas and all of the regionals.. we cant even beat out bids from 2nd tier schools in football for a home playoff game.

[jdub27]

8 minutes ago, wheelsup said:

so here are the reasons I have heard..

• Nichols got a bunch of money from their conference.. Doesnt the MVFC give some money?  Seems like an odd excuse
• Weber state got the home game because the "should" have been seeded.

Both of those reasons sound like crap to me and just more reasons for us to be ok with a mediocre effort on our part.  I dont think we are nearly as unlucky as people would try to say to somehow take the spotlight off a failure by the AD to get a home playoff game.  I would hate to hear the excuses that would come out if we were matched up with a school that actually had money to bid.. instead we are left with conjecture about back room deals and somehow trying to justify losing to a school without locker rooms and another school that doesnt match our attendance.

I dont know why Im so annoyed by this.. but this is the second year we have had a good opportunity to help change the trajectory of the program and host some home playoff games.  Im not a hockey versus other sports guy.. but we roll out the red carpet for the hockey team in vegas and all of the regionals.. we cant even beat out bids from 2nd tier schools in football for a home playoff game.

No, the MVFC does not kick in any money. And that was something that hadn't been done before.
If the committee decides to award a home game to a team regardless of bid, then how exactly would you propose to combat that? Earning a seed is the obvious answer but that isn't going to happen every year (or be awarded even if deserved I guess). If UND puts out a bid that beats everyone (outside of Montana) and still doesn't get selected, what can they actually do?

Absolutely get the frustration. But if what everyone is reading between the lines on is close to accurate, there is some real BS going on with the committee. 

[Kab]

It’s called politics 

same reason Montana got in

same reason ndsu is 3rd

the golden rule

those who have the gold rule 

[wheelsup]

1 minute ago, jdub27 said:

No, the MVFC does not kick in any money. And that was something that hadn't been done before.
If the committee decides to award a home game to a team regardless of bid, then how exactly would you propose to combat that? Earning a seed is the obvious answer but that isn't going to happen every year (or be awarded even if deserved I guess). If UND puts out a bid that beats everyone (outside of Montana) and still doesn't get selected, what can they actually do?

So I 100% agree with what you just said.. if those things actually happened there is nothing we can do about it and I would be ok with the result.  

But.. I guess I dont believe that it actually happened..

• "The supposedly money hungry NCAA decided to ignore a reasonably substantially higher bid and give the home playoff game to Weber State because they should have been a seeded team.."

Heading down that conspiracy theory route where everyone outside of grand forks hates UND football is a bridge too far for me.  The conspiracy theory last week was that we wouldnt make the playoffs becasue the NDSU AD and Fargo in general was going to do everything they could to keep us out of the playoffs.. obviously not true.  The simplest answer is usually the right one and the simplest answer is that our bid wasnt better than Weber State's.

Seems like its time for a little transparency to clear this up.. apparently FOI requests can be filed.. Chaves or somebody else.. should be able to file a FOI request with both UND and Weber State see what the bids are and embarrass the NCAA if this conspiracy theory is true.  Seems like there would be a lot of schools/teams unhappy with the new precedent of.. well Weber state should have been seeded but wasnt so we promised them a home game regardless of their bid.

[petey23]

17 minutes ago, wheelsup said:

so here are the reasons I have heard..

• Nichols got a bunch of money from their conference.. Doesnt the MVFC give some money?  Seems like an odd excuse
• Weber state got the home game because the "should" have been seeded.

Both of those reasons sound like crap to me and just more reasons for us to be ok with a mediocre effort on our part.  I dont think we are nearly as unlucky as people would try to say to somehow take the spotlight off a failure by the AD to get a home playoff game.  I would hate to hear the excuses that would come out if we were matched up with a school that actually had money to bid.. instead we are left with conjecture about back room deals and somehow trying to justify losing to a school without locker rooms and another school that doesnt match our attendance.

I dont know why Im so annoyed by this.. but this is the second year we have had a good opportunity to help change the trajectory of the program and host some home playoff games.  Im not a hockey versus other sports guy.. but we roll out the red carpet for the hockey team in vegas and all of the regionals.. we cant even beat out bids from 2nd tier schools in football for a home playoff game.

Both things can be true.

A. The NCAA is a corrupt enterprise.

B. Our Athletic Department dropped the ball.....again