DU/MSUM for the title

[SJHovey]

I was curious so I went back and looked at the history of the NCAA Ice Hockey Tournament.

March 17, 1951.

That was the day that Michigan won title #2.  Since March 17, 1951, Michigan has been the NCAA ice hockey program that has held the title of "most championships won," until April 9, 2022.

Crazy.  More than 71 years.  Nearly 26,000 days.  Truman was president.

[SiouxHawkGuy]

Michigan won 6 of their 9 championships before North Dakota won their 1st. 

[burd]

45 minutes ago, SiouxHawkGuy said:

Michigan won 6 of their 9 championships before North Dakota won their 1st. 

MIchigan won 6 of their 9 when they wore Sears catalogues for shin pads.  

[Blackheart]

6 minutes ago, burd said:

MIchigan won 6 of their 9 when they wore Sears catalogues for shin pads.  

Looked like some of their guys were still using them on DU’s game winning goal in the semi’s.

[The Sicatoka]

7 minutes ago, burd said:

MIchigan won 6 of their 9 when they wore Sears catalogues for shin pads.  

Sears?
Extravagance.
Most teams had to wear "Monkey" Wards. 

[Goon]

12 hours ago, bale31 said:

That was all he said. To be honest, I don't think it was that the Denver AD thought it or the conference switch happened (I believe this was part of that process), it was the unprofessional undressing of a colleague in front of their peers.

That would be very unprofessional and unnecessary. 

[Goon]

11 hours ago, The Sicatoka said:

You're saying the event is remembered a decade or more later? 

That public undressing, a public belittling of others' areas for improvement, that'd be like announcing you voted "no" (and listing faults) to a new member after a private vote that added a member to the conference. And you're saying folks remember that. 

Who'd be so silly to do either?  <-- that's rhetorical; we know the answers. 

Why don't people understand ... praise in public, punish in private. 

You have to remember, Denver University has a very high opinion of themselves, they probably see a school like Minnesota State as unwashed Rubes.I keep hearing from some of their fans how the Summit League is below them and they deserved to be in a better conference. 

[nodakvindy]

20 hours ago, brianvf said:

LSSU almost went back to back to back…only thing that prevented that was the 1993 Kariya-led Maine team. 
It’s hard to count individual awards that are voted on by a committee as evidence of an elite program. 
They're very similar programs. Both have three titles all within a one decade span but haven’t done much outside of that decade. 
I feel the judgement is skewed because UMDs titles are more recent. If their titles were all flipped and UMD hadn’t won a title since 1994, would they still be considered elite?

UMD also almost went back to back to back and at a time when that is much harder to do. They have twice as many Frozen Four appearances, and while they didn't win a title they had a very strong stretch in mid 80s.  They may not be with the true value bloods but they are a notch above LSSU. 

[Goon]

21 hours ago, Goon said:

You have to remember, Denver University has a very high opinion of themselves, they probably see a school like Minnesota State as unwashed Rubes.I keep hearing from some of their fans how the Summit League is below them and they deserved to be in a better conference. 

Just for the record, I am not pointing this comment to any member or poster of this board. This is a reference to a  debate that transpired on twitter a few years back. I just wanted to clear that up. 

[puck swami]

As a longtime Denver fan, I'll chime in with a few perspectives here - perhaps it might change some minds...

First, I had not heard about the Denver AD berating MSUM's AD "in front of peers" 10 years ago. While it sounds kinda awful the way the story was related on this message board, some wider historic context is probably important to understand the very real sense of deep anger about that very issue -- the commitment of resources -- that broke up the WCHA about 10 years ago --at the time those alleged comments were likely made. It's easy for Mavs fans and administrators to look back at 10 years ago with anger at those comments.  Back then, the college hockey world was a far different place, and MSUM as a program, WAS decidedly a laggard in terms of spending, relative to the top programs, and it was seriously hurting the WCHA back then. If you've read Brad Schlossman's (btw, the best college hockey beat writer in America) superbly-reported three-part epic on the formation of the NCHC in the Grand Forks Herald a few years ago (and I'm sure most of the fans on this board here have read it), you'll remember that there were small-budget schools in the WCHA at the time who not only refused to commit the resources needed to be nationally competitive, but would also not commit the resources needed to improve the league, either. And those small budget schools had more votes in the WCHA league meetings, which deeply angered schools like North Dakota and Denver, who were trying to upgrade the WCHA in a variety of areas after big-budget schools Minnesota and Wisconsin had left the WCHA for the Big 10.  And when the small budget WCHA schools, went ahead and covertly offered "stand-pat" commissioner Bruce McLeod (who had no plans to expand/improve the WCHA after UM/UW left), a contract extension and that was the last straw. Denver, North Dakota and Miami led the charge to found a league for other "like-minded" schools - the NCHC, where they would not be hamstrung and could spend the money to create the best hockey league in the country. Looking back on it, the NCHC is head-and-shoulders above all leagues today because of the foresight of schools like Denver and North Dakota, who would not be pushed into that small program, cost-containment mindset.

Moreover, those Denver AD comments were certainly made in a private room, among league peers gathered for the very purpose of discussing these very issues, and not in in public. It's also highly possible that the Denver AD at the time could have been speaking about all of the WCHA spending laggards in general, and not just MSUM.  Finally, in a closed-door league meeting like that, angry issues get discussed in front of peers all the time. So for MSUM leaders to talk about what happened in a private meeting, in public, 10 years later to try to embarrass Denver (in public), is largely sour grapes and poor form. Closed-door meetings should be just that, even 10 years later. Finally, MSUM should be thanking Denver for providing private-room incentive to improve - and 10 years later, it is a much better program. The Mavs were great in Boston and had a wonderful, best-ever season, under a great coach. They are flourishing in the CCHA, too. Of all the schools 'left behind' when the NCHC was founded, it is Minnesota State who made the most lemonade with those perceptual lemons. They have had a lot of joy in Mankato since the breakup of the WCHA.  The Mavs now generate 8-10 victories more year (at least) by not having to play in the nation's toughest conference - the NCHC meat grinder. And over time, those extra victories have allowed the Mavs to attract better talent, who want to play for a program that that now has a great shot at 30 wins every year and an easier shot an NCAA bid/higher seed. As good as the Mavs have become in the recent new era, they decidedly would not be the 30+-win/year program the are now by playing an NCHC league schedule every year...  

And on the subject of North Dakota's current standing in the college hockey world, make no mistake -- this Denver fan still sees UND as a gold standard program in NCAA Hockey - we view UND with respect and envy and that's true for a lot of die-hard Pioneer fans.  While DU may have one more National Championship than UND, and while that is hugely important, that that's only one measure of a hockey program's strength. North Dakota still leads the nation in facilities, attendance, fan base size, and NHL player production, which are hugely important drivers of importance in the world of college hockey. Look at recruiting - UND is so stacked up front for next year at forward that they just told a potential NHL draft pick, Cole Spicer, to find another school.  Moreover, UND is the largest athletic attraction in its entire state. UND can drive sellout crowds in places like Las Vegas and Nashville, which few other programs could even dream of doing.  UND has made the most of history and tradition to overcome a difficult recruiting location, albeit in a natural hockey-playing area, and the coaching from your ex-NHL staff is superb. UND is a program that others would love to emulate and raises the bar for everyone else.  As a Denver fan, UND brings out the best in our program. and I'm sure we bring out the best in yours.  It's a great rivalry, and we're thrilled that Denver and North Dakota took the leadership roles in forming our league.  And when UND fans see us as a small fan base of snobs and newbies, there is a lot of truth in that stereo type.

As good as Denver is on the ice these days, we Pios will always struggle to build a large following for our program. There are many reasons for this reality. We are sport attraction number #10-15 in our own city, and as a private school, we don't receive the casual fan benefits of a state flagship school or even a public university. Our school is small, selective and private with just 6,000 undergrads in a mostly non-hockey hotbed, a majority of whom come from from more than 1,000 miles away and did not grow up cheering for Denver with their family, so there is little fan continuity.

Are we snobby? Yes, with good reason. The school just passed $1B in endowment. Excellence is assumed here and expectations are high. The local community sees us as a school for rich kids, which has a lot truth to it. Most of the students here come primarily from affluent backgrounds and other sophisticated cities in East, Midwest, Texas and the West. And when they grow up, they have a lot competing for their time and interest. You can't be a sucessful private school without the rich people who pay the bills to help subsidize the not so rich ones. The high academic standards at Denver also draw a lot of non-sports fans to campus.  Even with the games on campus, free student tickets and a winning team, we're lucky to get 200 students at most games. Few people here grew up playing hockey in Colorado - many of our fans are newbies to hockey and to Denver.  It's seen here as niche sport.  There is so much going on in booming Denver that DU hockey is just a little niche sideshow here. Even the Avalanche, the best team in the NHL this year, is #11 in NHL attendance and usually don't sell out their building with 93% attendance this year.  Denver is also transient city, where most residents were born somewhere else and retain sport allegiances to where they came from - hence the most of the UND fans who come to Magness live in the Denver area, but still cheer for their home state team. In an oversaturated market like ours, DU fights very hard for exposure in our own city, with eight pro teams and five other larger D-I public schools (CU, CSU, AFA, UNC and UW) are with 2 hours of campus, as well as world class skiing.  Even as a 9-nine time national champ, our home games are not even often covered by the local newspaper and our game stories, when they do run, are typically buried on page 15 of the sports section. As a result, Denver's total fan base is small - perhaps 15,000-20,000 people follow us casually, while North Dakota's following is probably north of 150,000 people or more, as a state flagship school - at least 10 times Denver's size.  

Frankly, we DU fans are very lucky to enjoy the quality of hockey we have here...  

 

 

[AlphaMikeFoxtrot]

58 minutes ago, puck swami said:

As a longtime Denver fan, I'll chime in with a few perspectives here - perhaps it might change some minds...

First, I had not heard about the Denver AD berating MSUM's AD "in front of peers" 10 years ago. While it sounds kinda awful the way the story was related on this message board, some wider historic context is probably important to understand the very real sense of deep anger about that very issue -- the commitment of resources -- that broke up the WCHA about 10 years ago --at the time those alleged comments were likely made. It's easy for Mavs fans and administrators to look back at 10 years ago with anger at those comments.  Back then, the college hockey world was a far different place, and MSUM as a program, WAS decidedly a laggard in terms of spending, relative to the top programs, and it was seriously hurting the WCHA back then. If you've read Brad Schlossman's (btw, the best college hockey beat writer in America) superbly-reported three-part epic on the formation of the NCHC in the Grand Forks Herald a few years ago (and I'm sure most of the fans on this board here have read it), you'll remember that there were small-budget schools in the WCHA at the time who not only refused to commit the resources needed to be nationally competitive, but would also not commit the resources needed to improve the league, either. And those small budget schools had more votes in the WCHA league meetings, which deeply angered schools like North Dakota and Denver, who were trying to upgrade the WCHA in a variety of areas after big-budget schools Minnesota and Wisconsin had left the WCHA for the Big 10.  And when the small budget WCHA schools, went ahead and covertly offered "stand-pat" commissioner Bruce McLeod (who had no plans to expand/improve the WCHA after UM/UW left), a contract extension and that was the last straw. Denver, North Dakota and Miami led the charge to found a league for other "like-minded" schools - the NCHC, where they would not be hamstrung and could spend the money to create the best hockey league in the country. Looking back on it, the NCHC is head-and-shoulders above all leagues today because of the foresight of schools like Denver and North Dakota, who would not be pushed into that small program, cost-containment mindset.

Moreover, those Denver AD comments were certainly made in a private room, among league peers gathered for the very purpose of discussing these very issues, and not in in public. It's also highly possible that the Denver AD at the time could have been speaking about all of the WCHA spending laggards in general, and not just MSUM.  Finally, in a closed-door league meeting like that, angry issues get discussed in front of peers all the time. So for MSUM leaders to talk about what happened in a private meeting, in public, 10 years later to try to embarrass Denver (in public), is largely sour grapes and poor form. Closed-door meetings should be just that, even 10 years later. Finally, MSUM should be thanking Denver for providing private-room incentive to improve - and 10 years later, it is a much better program. The Mavs were great in Boston and had a wonderful, best-ever season, under a great coach. They are flourishing in the CCHA, too. Of all the schools 'left behind' when the NCHC was founded, it is Minnesota State who made the most lemonade with those perceptual lemons. They have had a lot of joy in Mankato since the breakup of the WCHA.  The Mavs now generate 8-10 victories more year (at least) by not having to play in the nation's toughest conference - the NCHC meat grinder. And over time, those extra victories have allowed the Mavs to attract better talent, who want to play for a program that that now has a great shot at 30 wins every year and an easier shot an NCAA bid/higher seed. As good as the Mavs have become in the recent new era, they decidedly would not be the 30+-win/year program the are now by playing an NCHC league schedule every year...  

And on the subject of North Dakota's current standing in the college hockey world, make no mistake -- this Denver fan still sees UND as a gold standard program in NCAA Hockey - we view UND with respect and envy and that's true for a lot of die-hard Pioneer fans.  While DU may have one more National Championship than UND, and while that is hugely important, that that's only one measure of a hockey program's strength. North Dakota still leads the nation in facilities, attendance, fan base size, and NHL player production, which are hugely important drivers of importance in the world of college hockey. Look at recruiting - UND is so stacked up front for next year at forward that they just told a potential NHL draft pick, Cole Spicer, to find another school.  Moreover, UND is the largest athletic attraction in its entire state. UND can drive sellout crowds in places like Las Vegas and Nashville, which few other programs could even dream of doing.  UND has made the most of history and tradition to overcome a difficult recruiting location, albeit in a natural hockey-playing area, and the coaching from your ex-NHL staff is superb. UND is a program that others would love to emulate and raises the bar for everyone else.  As a Denver fan, UND brings out the best in our program. and I'm sure we bring out the best in yours.  It's a great rivalry, and we're thrilled that Denver and North Dakota took the leadership roles in forming our league.  And when UND fans see us as a small fan base of snobs and newbies, there is a lot of truth in that stereo type.

As good as Denver is on the ice these days, we Pios will always struggle to build a large following for our program. There are many reasons for this reality. We are sport attraction number #10-15 in our own city, and as a private school, we don't receive the casual fan benefits of a state flagship school or even a public university. Our school is small, selective and private with just 6,000 undergrads in a mostly non-hockey hotbed, a majority of whom come from from more than 1,000 miles away and did not grow up cheering for Denver with their family, so there is little fan continuity.

Are we snobby? Yes, with good reason. The school just passed $1B in endowment. Excellence is assumed here and expectations are high. The local community sees us as a school for rich kids, which has a lot truth to it. Most of the students here come primarily from affluent backgrounds and other sophisticated cities in East, Midwest, Texas and the West. And when they grow up, they have a lot competing for their time and interest. You can't be a sucessful private school without the rich people who pay the bills to help subsidize the not so rich ones. The high academic standards at Denver also draw a lot of non-sports fans to campus.  Even with the games on campus, free student tickets and a winning team, we're lucky to get 200 students at most games. Few people here grew up playing hockey in Colorado - many of our fans are newbies to hockey and to Denver.  It's seen here as niche sport.  There is so much going on in booming Denver that DU hockey is just a little niche sideshow here. Even the Avalanche, the best team in the NHL this year, is #11 in NHL attendance and usually don't sell out their building with 93% attendance this year.  Denver is also transient city, where most residents were born somewhere else and retain sport allegiances to where they came from - hence the most of the UND fans who come to Magness live in the Denver area, but still cheer for their home state team. In an oversaturated market like ours, DU fights very hard for exposure in our own city, with eight pro teams and five other larger D-I public schools (CU, CSU, AFA, UNC and UW) are with 2 hours of campus, as well as world class skiing.  Even as a 9-nine time national champ, our home games are not even often covered by the local newspaper and our game stories, when they do run, are typically buried on page 15 of the sports section. As a result, Denver's total fan base is small - perhaps 15,000-20,000 people follow us casually, while North Dakota's following is probably north of 150,000 people or more, as a state flagship school - at least 10 times Denver's size.  

Frankly, we DU fans are very lucky to enjoy the quality of hockey we have here...  

 

 

What is UW?

DU definitely has a rich kid daycare reputation, but it is also a top dog in rich kid sports like hockey, lacrosse and skiing (lax I root for y'all).

[Wilbur]

1 hour ago, puck swami said:

As a longtime Denver fan, I'll chime in with a few perspectives here - perhaps it might change some minds...

First, I had not heard about the Denver AD berating MSUM's AD "in front of peers" 10 years ago. While it sounds kinda awful the way the story was related on this message board, some wider historic context is probably important to understand the very real sense of deep anger about that very issue -- the commitment of resources -- that broke up the WCHA about 10 years ago --at the time those alleged comments were likely made. It's easy for Mavs fans and administrators to look back at 10 years ago with anger at those comments.  Back then, the college hockey world was a far different place, and MSUM as a program, WAS decidedly a laggard in terms of spending, relative to the top programs, and it was seriously hurting the WCHA back then. If you've read Brad Schlossman's (btw, the best college hockey beat writer in America) superbly-reported three-part epic on the formation of the NCHC in the Grand Forks Herald a few years ago (and I'm sure most of the fans on this board here have read it), you'll remember that there were small-budget schools in the WCHA at the time who not only refused to commit the resources needed to be nationally competitive, but would also not commit the resources needed to improve the league, either. And those small budget schools had more votes in the WCHA league meetings, which deeply angered schools like North Dakota and Denver, who were trying to upgrade the WCHA in a variety of areas after big-budget schools Minnesota and Wisconsin had left the WCHA for the Big 10.  And when the small budget WCHA schools, went ahead and covertly offered "stand-pat" commissioner Bruce McLeod (who had no plans to expand/improve the WCHA after UM/UW left), a contract extension and that was the last straw. Denver, North Dakota and Miami led the charge to found a league for other "like-minded" schools - the NCHC, where they would not be hamstrung and could spend the money to create the best hockey league in the country. Looking back on it, the NCHC is head-and-shoulders above all leagues today because of the foresight of schools like Denver and North Dakota, who would be pushed into that small program, cost-containment mindset.

Moreover, those Denver AD comments were certainly made in a private room, among league peers gathered for the very purpose of discussing these very issues, and not in in public. It's also highly possible that the Denver AD at the time could have been speaking about all of the WCHA spending laggards in general, and not just MSUM.  Finally, in a closed-door league meeting like that, angry issues get discussed in front of peers all the time. So for MSUM leaders to talk about what happened in a private meeting, in public, 10 years later to try to embarrass Denver (in public), is largely sour grapes and poor form. Closed-door meetings should be just that, even 10 years later. Finally, MSUM should be thanking Denver for providing private-room incentive to improve - and 10 years later, it is a much better program. The Mavs were great in Boston and had a wonderful, best-ever season, under a great coach. They are flourishing in the CCHA, too. Of all the schools 'left behind' when the NCHC was founded, it is Minnesota State who made the most lemonade with those perceptual lemons. They have had a lot of joy in Mankato since the breakup of the WCHA.  The Mavs now generate 8-10 victories more year (at least) by not having to play in the nation's toughest conference - the NCHC meat grinder. And over time, those extra victories have allowed the Mavs to attract better talent, who want to play for a program that that now has a great shot at 30 wins every year and an easier shot an NCAA bid/higher seed. As good as the Mavs have become in the recent new era, they decidedly would not be the 30+-win/year program the are now by playing an NCHC league schedule every year...  

And on the subject of North Dakota's current standing in the college hockey world, make no mistake -- this Denver fan still sees UND as a gold standard program in NCAA Hockey - we view UND respect and envy for a lot of Pioneer fans.  While DU may have one more National Championship than UND, and while that hugely important, that that's only one measure of a hockey program's strength. North Dakota still leads the nation in facilities, attendance, fan base size, and NHL player production, which are hugely important drivers of importance in the world of college hockey. Look at recruiting - UND is so stacked up front for next year at forward that they just told a potential second-round pick, Cole Spicer, to find another school.  Moreover, UND is the largest athletic attraction in its entire state. UND can drive sellout crowds in places like Las Vegas and Nashville, which few other programs could even dream of doing.  UND has made the most of history and tradition to overcome a difficult recruiting location, albeit in a natural hockey-playing area, and the coaching from your ex-NHL staff is superb. UND is a program that others would love to emulate and raises the bar for everyone else.  As a Denver fan, UND brings out the best in our program. and I'm sure we bring out the best in yours.  It's a great rivalry, and we're thrilled that Denver and North Dakota took the leadership roles in forming our league.  And when UND fans see us as a small fan base of snobs and newbies, there is a lot of truth in that stereo type.

As good as Denver is on the ice these days, we Pios will always struggle to build a large following for our program. There are many reasons for this reality. We are sport attraction number #10-15 in our own city, and as a private school, we don't receive the casual fan benefits of a state flagship school or even a public university. Our school is small, selective and private with just 6,000 undergrads in a mostly non-hockey hotbed, a majority of whom come from from more than 1,000 miles away and did not grow up cheering for Denver with their family, so there is little fan continuity.

Are we snobby? Yes, with good reason. The school just passed $1B in endowment. Excellence is assumed here and expectations are high. The local community sees us as a school for rich kids, which has a lot truth to it. Most of the students here come primarily from affluent backgrounds and other sophisticated cities in East, Midwest, Texas and the West. And when they grow up, they have a lot competing for their time and interest. You can't be a sucessful private school without the rich people who pay the bills to help subsidize the not so rich ones. The high academic standards at Denver also draw a lot of non-sports fans to campus.  Even with the games on campus, free student tickets and a winning team, we're lucky to get 200 students at most games. Few people here grew up playing hockey in Colorado - many of our fans are newbies to hockey and to Denver.  It's seen here as niche sport.  There is so much going on in booming Denver that DU hockey is just a little niche sideshow here. Even the Avalanche, the best team in the NHL this year, is #11 in NHL attendance and usually don't sell out their building with 93% attendance this year.  Denver is also transient city, where most residents were born somewhere else and retain sport allegiances to where they came from - hence the most of the UND fans who come to Magness live in the Denver area, but still cheer for their home state team. In an oversaturated market like ours, DU fights very hard for exposure in our own city, with eight pro teams and five other larger D-I public schools (CU, CSU, AFA, UNC and UW) are with 2 hours of campus, as well as world class skiing.  Even as a 9-nine time national champ, our home games are not even often covered by the local newspaper and our game stories, when they do run, are typically buried on page 15 of the sports section. As a result, Denver's total fan base is small - perhaps 15,000-20,000 people follow us casually, while North Dakota's following is probably north of 150,000 people or more, as a state flagship school - at least 10 times Denver's size.  

Frankly, we DU fans very lucky to enjoy the quality of hockey we have here...  

 

 

Now there is an old USCHO name I remember!  Thanks for sharing a take here. 

[bale31]

I'm not going to relive 10 years ago and I'm not going to get in a pissing matches about conferences or how MSU should essentially be thanking schools that didn't give a damn about us for our success. All sides think they have valid reasons for doing and saying what they did and there is probably truth for all of them. My.ppint was only.to relay some of the frustration. I dont have to agree or defend everything MSU does (because they aren't perfect) just.like not everything done by DU or UND is perfect. All our respective schools can do is act in what they believe is in their own best interest with the information they have at a given time. Sometimes they will handle it right. Sometimes they wont.

[Sodbuster]

3 hours ago, puck swami said:

As a longtime Denver fan, I'll chime in with a few perspectives here - perhaps it might change some minds...

First, I had not heard about the Denver AD berating MSUM's AD "in front of peers" 10 years ago. While it sounds kinda awful the way the story was related on this message board, some wider historic context is probably important to understand the very real sense of deep anger about that very issue -- the commitment of resources -- that broke up the WCHA about 10 years ago --at the time those alleged comments were likely made. It's easy for Mavs fans and administrators to look back at 10 years ago with anger at those comments.  Back then, the college hockey world was a far different place, and MSUM as a program, WAS decidedly a laggard in terms of spending, relative to the top programs, and it was seriously hurting the WCHA back then. If you've read Brad Schlossman's (btw, the best college hockey beat writer in America) superbly-reported three-part epic on the formation of the NCHC in the Grand Forks Herald a few years ago (and I'm sure most of the fans on this board here have read it), you'll remember that there were small-budget schools in the WCHA at the time who not only refused to commit the resources needed to be nationally competitive, but would also not commit the resources needed to improve the league, either. And those small budget schools had more votes in the WCHA league meetings, which deeply angered schools like North Dakota and Denver, who were trying to upgrade the WCHA in a variety of areas after big-budget schools Minnesota and Wisconsin had left the WCHA for the Big 10.  And when the small budget WCHA schools, went ahead and covertly offered "stand-pat" commissioner Bruce McLeod (who had no plans to expand/improve the WCHA after UM/UW left), a contract extension and that was the last straw. Denver, North Dakota and Miami led the charge to found a league for other "like-minded" schools - the NCHC, where they would not be hamstrung and could spend the money to create the best hockey league in the country. Looking back on it, the NCHC is head-and-shoulders above all leagues today because of the foresight of schools like Denver and North Dakota, who would not be pushed into that small program, cost-containment mindset.

Moreover, those Denver AD comments were certainly made in a private room, among league peers gathered for the very purpose of discussing these very issues, and not in in public. It's also highly possible that the Denver AD at the time could have been speaking about all of the WCHA spending laggards in general, and not just MSUM.  Finally, in a closed-door league meeting like that, angry issues get discussed in front of peers all the time. So for MSUM leaders to talk about what happened in a private meeting, in public, 10 years later to try to embarrass Denver (in public), is largely sour grapes and poor form. Closed-door meetings should be just that, even 10 years later. Finally, MSUM should be thanking Denver for providing private-room incentive to improve - and 10 years later, it is a much better program. The Mavs were great in Boston and had a wonderful, best-ever season, under a great coach. They are flourishing in the CCHA, too. Of all the schools 'left behind' when the NCHC was founded, it is Minnesota State who made the most lemonade with those perceptual lemons. They have had a lot of joy in Mankato since the breakup of the WCHA.  The Mavs now generate 8-10 victories more year (at least) by not having to play in the nation's toughest conference - the NCHC meat grinder. And over time, those extra victories have allowed the Mavs to attract better talent, who want to play for a program that that now has a great shot at 30 wins every year and an easier shot an NCAA bid/higher seed. As good as the Mavs have become in the recent new era, they decidedly would not be the 30+-win/year program the are now by playing an NCHC league schedule every year...  

And on the subject of North Dakota's current standing in the college hockey world, make no mistake -- this Denver fan still sees UND as a gold standard program in NCAA Hockey - we view UND with respect and envy and that's true for a lot of die-hard Pioneer fans.  While DU may have one more National Championship than UND, and while that is hugely important, that that's only one measure of a hockey program's strength. North Dakota still leads the nation in facilities, attendance, fan base size, and NHL player production, which are hugely important drivers of importance in the world of college hockey. Look at recruiting - UND is so stacked up front for next year at forward that they just told a potential NHL draft pick, Cole Spicer, to find another school.  Moreover, UND is the largest athletic attraction in its entire state. UND can drive sellout crowds in places like Las Vegas and Nashville, which few other programs could even dream of doing.  UND has made the most of history and tradition to overcome a difficult recruiting location, albeit in a natural hockey-playing area, and the coaching from your ex-NHL staff is superb. UND is a program that others would love to emulate and raises the bar for everyone else.  As a Denver fan, UND brings out the best in our program. and I'm sure we bring out the best in yours.  It's a great rivalry, and we're thrilled that Denver and North Dakota took the leadership roles in forming our league.  And when UND fans see us as a small fan base of snobs and newbies, there is a lot of truth in that stereo type.

As good as Denver is on the ice these days, we Pios will always struggle to build a large following for our program. There are many reasons for this reality. We are sport attraction number #10-15 in our own city, and as a private school, we don't receive the casual fan benefits of a state flagship school or even a public university. Our school is small, selective and private with just 6,000 undergrads in a mostly non-hockey hotbed, a majority of whom come from from more than 1,000 miles away and did not grow up cheering for Denver with their family, so there is little fan continuity.

Are we snobby? Yes, with good reason. The school just passed $1B in endowment. Excellence is assumed here and expectations are high. The local community sees us as a school for rich kids, which has a lot truth to it. Most of the students here come primarily from affluent backgrounds and other sophisticated cities in East, Midwest, Texas and the West. And when they grow up, they have a lot competing for their time and interest. You can't be a sucessful private school without the rich people who pay the bills to help subsidize the not so rich ones. The high academic standards at Denver also draw a lot of non-sports fans to campus.  Even with the games on campus, free student tickets and a winning team, we're lucky to get 200 students at most games. Few people here grew up playing hockey in Colorado - many of our fans are newbies to hockey and to Denver.  It's seen here as niche sport.  There is so much going on in booming Denver that DU hockey is just a little niche sideshow here. Even the Avalanche, the best team in the NHL this year, is #11 in NHL attendance and usually don't sell out their building with 93% attendance this year.  Denver is also transient city, where most residents were born somewhere else and retain sport allegiances to where they came from - hence the most of the UND fans who come to Magness live in the Denver area, but still cheer for their home state team. In an oversaturated market like ours, DU fights very hard for exposure in our own city, with eight pro teams and five other larger D-I public schools (CU, CSU, AFA, UNC and UW) are with 2 hours of campus, as well as world class skiing.  Even as a 9-nine time national champ, our home games are not even often covered by the local newspaper and our game stories, when they do run, are typically buried on page 15 of the sports section. As a result, Denver's total fan base is small - perhaps 15,000-20,000 people follow us casually, while North Dakota's following is probably north of 150,000 people or more, as a state flagship school - at least 10 times Denver's size.  

Frankly, we DU fans are very lucky to enjoy the quality of hockey we have here...  

 

 

Wow! This was a very interesting take on this whole scenario. And I agree with almost all of it. Thanks for posting this.

 

[puck swami]

4 hours ago, AlphaMikeFoxtrot said:

What is UW?

 

University of Wyoming in Laramie, Wyo. which is about a 2-hour drive from Denver, and less than that from Denver's Northern suburbs. They get a similar amount of press in Denver as DU does, with their football and hoops about equaling DU's hockey, lacrosse and hoops coverage.  But the lion's share of college sports coverage goes to Colorado and Colorado State as the rival public schools here, followed by the other DI schools -- DU, Wyoming, Northern Colorado and Air Force, all in a similar measure. But the college sports coverage badly trails the Broncos (NFL), Rockies (MLB), Avalanche (NHL), Nuggets (NBA), Rapids (MLS), Mammoth (NLL), Eagles (AHL), Pro Skiing, Tennis, Golf, Racing, etc.

[siouxfaninseattle]

5 hours ago, bale31 said:

I'm not going to relive 10 years ago and I'm not going to get in a pissing matches about conferences or how MSU should essentially be thanking schools that didn't give a damn about us for our success. All sides think they have valid reasons for doing and saying what they did and there is probably truth for all of them. My.ppint was only.to relay some of the frustration. I dont have to agree or defend everything MSU does (because they aren't perfect) just.like not everything done by DU or UND is perfect. All our respective schools can do is act in what they believe is in their own best interest with the information they have at a given time. Sometimes they will handle it right. Sometimes they wont.

So I'm curious - do you know how MSUM stood on the issue of putting more resources into the hockey program and the league? I don't know the answer and I'd like to know if you do.

[bale31]

1 hour ago, siouxfaninseattle said:

So I'm curious - do you know how MSUM stood on the issue of putting more resources into the hockey program and the league? I don't know the answer and I'd like to know if you do.

I dont know the answer to that specific question. I can just give a bit of a feel for where MSU was at the time. Bother the president and ad were roughly 9 years into their tenure and the hockey program was 13 or 14 years onto being division 1. I don't know any of the internal numbers, but I would guess the hockey program was probably breaking even depending on the year. I know for a fact the lease of the civic center was like an albatross around their neck that made putting too many resources into it a pretty difficult task.

Around that time is when the athletic programs started turning around. Football, men's basketball, women's basketball, even volleyball and softball started having.more success. Was it a renewed commitment to athletics or just happenstance that everything started clicking at the same time. I suspect it was a little of both, but more the administration making a concerted effort to putting quality teams on the ice/field/court.

When specifically looking at the hickey program there are a lot of other factors. Like I said, the arena lease was not favorable to the school. The city owns it, but the state funded the building of it. Up until 2015 msu had the hockey program housed in a tin shed near campus. I've had administrators tell me that for a long time they didn't even show recruits the hockey offices because they were so bad and o ly showed the the arena, which wasn't exactly a shiny jewel itself. So msu and the city are continually going to the state to be put on the bonding schedule to upgrade the building. During this same time Duluth got their new building, st cloud got theirs renovated, bemidji got their building and, I think, Rochester got a new or renovated civic center. Each time mankato got cut out.

This all limited the amount msu could spend. They did, however, find a way to change coaches and bring Hastings in. He has created new ways of raising money. They were finally able to get the renovations approved (which included a performing arts center next door), moved the hockey offices downtown to the arena and upgraded the facility as a whole. Change the order of who got facilities first and who knows if st cloud or duluth are spending the kind of money they were. I fully believe that if the conference shft happens 5 years later and the story is a lot different for both mankato and bemidji. 

Now, none of that changes that I believe all of the accounts that have come out about the forming of the nchc and the new wcha. Msu probably wasn't spending the kind of money that others expected of them, whether it was fiscally responsible or not. Nor does it change that I think it's extremely unprofessional to dress down a peer in front of their colleagues whether it's a closed door meeting or not. It's ok to have disagreements, it's not ok to embarrass a colleague no.matter how much you think you're in the right. I have to admit, I'm not a big fan of what our ad did with his comments either. From my perspective, it's better to keep that sort of thing to yourself.

The only thing I will sayabput the conferences themselves is that I don't believe that the current arrangement of the conferences is just as unsustainable as what we had 10 years ago. Consolidating all of the money into small group is not going to lead to a strong sport as a whole. What happened.with the Alaskas and Alabama was entirely predictable. There is a thread that is 118 pages long about expanding hockey on this site, but no one wants to take on those schools and only wants.to shuffle around already successful programs and leave those new ones to be supported by the schools that don't have the financial viability to support anyone but themselves. Everyone is pointing to the ccha and aha to take those schools in, but are glazing over the fact that the aha is so worried about money that they are just starting to allow schools a full compliment of scholarships and the ccha is made up of 6 d2 schools, 1 schools that is d1 everywhere and 1 school that is making a jump from d3 to d1. Those conferences don't have the financial stability to take others on. The real test is what things look like in about 5 years. Will Liu, Lindenwood, and Augustana still have programs? I dunno, but this idea that everyone needs to have the same financial commitment to their hockey program isn't realistic. Its a good qay to shrink the sport rather than grow the sport.

That's a really long way of saying I don't think anyone was wrong so much as everyone was panicking and thinking of what was best for them in the next year or two rather than what was best for them (and everyone else) in the long run. They didnt evaluate the entire environment in my opinion the smaller schools didn't realize the.message they were sending by re-hiring McLeod. The big ten didn't realize how they were affecting everyone else in 3/4 conferences. The breakaway schools didn't realize the turmoil it was going to send 10-15 other schools into. It doesn't mean any of the decisions were wrong, it just was a damn risky move to make and it widened the divide between the James and the have nots.

[siouxfaninseattle]

23 hours ago, bale31 said:

I dont know the answer to that specific question. I can just give a bit of a feel for where MSU was at the time. Bother the president and ad were roughly 9 years into their tenure and the hockey program was 13 or 14 years onto being division 1. I don't know any of the internal numbers, but I would guess the hockey program was probably breaking even depending on the year. I know for a fact the lease of the civic center was like an albatross around their neck that made putting too many resources into it a pretty difficult task.

Around that time is when the athletic programs started turning around. Football, men's basketball, women's basketball, even volleyball and softball started having.more success. Was it a renewed commitment to athletics or just happenstance that everything started clicking at the same time. I suspect it was a little of both, but more the administration making a concerted effort to putting quality teams on the ice/field/court.

When specifically looking at the hickey program there are a lot of other factors. Like I said, the arena lease was not favorable to the school. The city owns it, but the state funded the building of it. Up until 2015 msu had the hockey program housed in a tin shed near campus. I've had administrators tell me that for a long time they didn't even show recruits the hockey offices because they were so bad and o ly showed the the arena, which wasn't exactly a shiny jewel itself. So msu and the city are continually going to the state to be put on the bonding schedule to upgrade the building. During this same time Duluth got their new building, st cloud got theirs renovated, bemidji got their building and, I think, Rochester got a new or renovated civic center. Each time mankato got cut out.

This all limited the amount msu could spend. They did, however, find a way to change coaches and bring Hastings in. He has created new ways of raising money. They were finally able to get the renovations approved (which included a performing arts center next door), moved the hockey offices downtown to the arena and upgraded the facility as a whole. Change the order of who got facilities first and who knows if st cloud or duluth are spending the kind of money they were. I fully believe that if the conference shft happens 5 years later and the story is a lot different for both mankato and bemidji. 

Now, none of that changes that I believe all of the accounts that have come out about the forming of the nchc and the new wcha. Msu probably wasn't spending the kind of money that others expected of them, whether it was fiscally responsible or not. Nor does it change that I think it's extremely unprofessional to dress down a peer in front of their colleagues whether it's a closed door meeting or not. It's ok to have disagreements, it's not ok to embarrass a colleague no.matter how much you think you're in the right. I have to admit, I'm not a big fan of what our ad did with his comments either. From my perspective, it's better to keep that sort of thing to yourself.

The only thing I will sayabput the conferences themselves is that I don't believe that the current arrangement of the conferences is just as unsustainable as what we had 10 years ago. Consolidating all of the money into small group is not going to lead to a strong sport as a whole. What happened.with pretty well Alaskas and Alabama was entirely predictable. There is a thread that is 118 pages long about expanding hockey on this site, but no one wants to take on those schools and only wants.to shuffle around already successful programs and leave those new ones to be supported by the schools that don't have the financial viability to support anyone but themselves. Everyone is pointing to the ccha and aha to take those schools in, but are glazing over the fact that the aha is so worried about money that they are just starting to allow schools a full compliment of scholarships and the ccha is made up of 6 d2 schools, 1 schools that is d1 everywhere and 1 school that is making a jump from d3 to d1. Those conferences don't have the financial stability to take others on. The real test is what things look like in about 5 years. Will Liu, Lindenwood, and Augustana still have programs? I dunno, but this idea that everyone needs to have the same financial commitment to their hockey program isn't realistic. Its a good qay to shrink the sport rather than grow the sport.

That's a really long way of saying I don't think anyone was wrong so much as everyone was panicking and thinking of what was best for them in the next year or two rather than what was best for them (and everyone else) in the long run. They didnt evaluate the entire environment in my opinion the smaller schools didn't realize the.message they were sending by re-hiring McLeod. The big ten didn't realize how they were affecting everyone else in 3/4 conferences. The breakaway schools didn't realize the turmoil it was going to send 10-15 other schools into. It doesn't mean any of the decisions were wrong, it just was a damn risky move to make and it widened the divide between the James and the have nots.

Thanks for the response. I think you summed up the situation at MSUM pretty well.

[burd]

On 4/16/2022 at 12:34 PM, puck swami said:

As a longtime Denver fan, I'll chime in with a few perspectives here - perhaps it might change some minds...

First, I had not heard about the Denver AD berating MSUM's AD "in front of peers" 10 years ago. While it sounds kinda awful the way the story was related on this message board, some wider historic context is probably important to understand the very real sense of deep anger about that very issue -- the commitment of resources -- that broke up the WCHA about 10 years ago --at the time those alleged comments were likely made. It's easy for Mavs fans and administrators to look back at 10 years ago with anger at those comments.  Back then, the college hockey world was a far different place, and MSUM as a program, WAS decidedly a laggard in terms of spending, relative to the top programs, and it was seriously hurting the WCHA back then. If you've read Brad Schlossman's (btw, the best college hockey beat writer in America) superbly-reported three-part epic on the formation of the NCHC in the Grand Forks Herald a few years ago (and I'm sure most of the fans on this board here have read it), you'll remember that there were small-budget schools in the WCHA at the time who not only refused to commit the resources needed to be nationally competitive, but would also not commit the resources needed to improve the league, either. And those small budget schools had more votes in the WCHA league meetings, which deeply angered schools like North Dakota and Denver, who were trying to upgrade the WCHA in a variety of areas after big-budget schools Minnesota and Wisconsin had left the WCHA for the Big 10.  And when the small budget WCHA schools, went ahead and covertly offered "stand-pat" commissioner Bruce McLeod (who had no plans to expand/improve the WCHA after UM/UW left), a contract extension and that was the last straw. Denver, North Dakota and Miami led the charge to found a league for other "like-minded" schools - the NCHC, where they would not be hamstrung and could spend the money to create the best hockey league in the country. Looking back on it, the NCHC is head-and-shoulders above all leagues today because of the foresight of schools like Denver and North Dakota, who would not be pushed into that small program, cost-containment mindset.

Moreover, those Denver AD comments were certainly made in a private room, among league peers gathered for the very purpose of discussing these very issues, and not in in public. It's also highly possible that the Denver AD at the time could have been speaking about all of the WCHA spending laggards in general, and not just MSUM.  Finally, in a closed-door league meeting like that, angry issues get discussed in front of peers all the time. So for MSUM leaders to talk about what happened in a private meeting, in public, 10 years later to try to embarrass Denver (in public), is largely sour grapes and poor form. Closed-door meetings should be just that, even 10 years later. Finally, MSUM should be thanking Denver for providing private-room incentive to improve - and 10 years later, it is a much better program. The Mavs were great in Boston and had a wonderful, best-ever season, under a great coach. They are flourishing in the CCHA, too. Of all the schools 'left behind' when the NCHC was founded, it is Minnesota State who made the most lemonade with those perceptual lemons. They have had a lot of joy in Mankato since the breakup of the WCHA.  The Mavs now generate 8-10 victories more year (at least) by not having to play in the nation's toughest conference - the NCHC meat grinder. And over time, those extra victories have allowed the Mavs to attract better talent, who want to play for a program that that now has a great shot at 30 wins every year and an easier shot an NCAA bid/higher seed. As good as the Mavs have become in the recent new era, they decidedly would not be the 30+-win/year program the are now by playing an NCHC league schedule every year...  

And on the subject of North Dakota's current standing in the college hockey world, make no mistake -- this Denver fan still sees UND as a gold standard program in NCAA Hockey - we view UND with respect and envy and that's true for a lot of die-hard Pioneer fans.  While DU may have one more National Championship than UND, and while that is hugely important, that that's only one measure of a hockey program's strength. North Dakota still leads the nation in facilities, attendance, fan base size, and NHL player production, which are hugely important drivers of importance in the world of college hockey. Look at recruiting - UND is so stacked up front for next year at forward that they just told a potential NHL draft pick, Cole Spicer, to find another school.  Moreover, UND is the largest athletic attraction in its entire state. UND can drive sellout crowds in places like Las Vegas and Nashville, which few other programs could even dream of doing.  UND has made the most of history and tradition to overcome a difficult recruiting location, albeit in a natural hockey-playing area, and the coaching from your ex-NHL staff is superb. UND is a program that others would love to emulate and raises the bar for everyone else.  As a Denver fan, UND brings out the best in our program. and I'm sure we bring out the best in yours.  It's a great rivalry, and we're thrilled that Denver and North Dakota took the leadership roles in forming our league.  And when UND fans see us as a small fan base of snobs and newbies, there is a lot of truth in that stereo type.

As good as Denver is on the ice these days, we Pios will always struggle to build a large following for our program. There are many reasons for this reality. We are sport attraction number #10-15 in our own city, and as a private school, we don't receive the casual fan benefits of a state flagship school or even a public university. Our school is small, selective and private with just 6,000 undergrads in a mostly non-hockey hotbed, a majority of whom come from from more than 1,000 miles away and did not grow up cheering for Denver with their family, so there is little fan continuity.

Are we snobby? Yes, with good reason. The school just passed $1B in endowment. Excellence is assumed here and expectations are high. The local community sees us as a school for rich kids, which has a lot truth to it. Most of the students here come primarily from affluent backgrounds and other sophisticated cities in East, Midwest, Texas and the West. And when they grow up, they have a lot competing for their time and interest. You can't be a sucessful private school without the rich people who pay the bills to help subsidize the not so rich ones. The high academic standards at Denver also draw a lot of non-sports fans to campus.  Even with the games on campus, free student tickets and a winning team, we're lucky to get 200 students at most games. Few people here grew up playing hockey in Colorado - many of our fans are newbies to hockey and to Denver.  It's seen here as niche sport.  There is so much going on in booming Denver that DU hockey is just a little niche sideshow here. Even the Avalanche, the best team in the NHL this year, is #11 in NHL attendance and usually don't sell out their building with 93% attendance this year.  Denver is also transient city, where most residents were born somewhere else and retain sport allegiances to where they came from - hence the most of the UND fans who come to Magness live in the Denver area, but still cheer for their home state team. In an oversaturated market like ours, DU fights very hard for exposure in our own city, with eight pro teams and five other larger D-I public schools (CU, CSU, AFA, UNC and UW) are with 2 hours of campus, as well as world class skiing.  Even as a 9-nine time national champ, our home games are not even often covered by the local newspaper and our game stories, when they do run, are typically buried on page 15 of the sports section. As a result, Denver's total fan base is small - perhaps 15,000-20,000 people follow us casually, while North Dakota's following is probably north of 150,000 people or more, as a state flagship school - at least 10 times Denver's size.  

Frankly, we DU fans are very lucky to enjoy the quality of hockey we have here...  

 

 

PS,   It’s been far too long.    Excellent post, as always.    
Y’all come back, ya hear?

[BusinessSiouxt]

2 hours ago, burd said:

PS,   It’s been far too long.    Excellent post, as always.    
Y’all come back, ya hear?

It is an excellent post, and speaking for my wife (which I can only do in her absence), an omaha fan and others that I know in Omaha, UND is highly respected as is Denver. The NCHC is the toughest league in Mens hockey and we are lucky to enjoy the games as we do. Every fan base has bitterness and jealousy within, but let’s face it, the NCHC as a whole has an awesome product that is much appreciated.

[burd]

4 hours ago, BusinessSiouxt said:

It is an excellent post, and speaking for my wife (which I can only do in her absence), an omaha fan and others that I know in Omaha, UND is highly respected as is Denver. The NCHC is the toughest league in Mens hockey and we are lucky to enjoy the games as we do. Every fan base has bitterness and jealousy within, but let’s face it, the NCHC as a whole has an awesome product that is much appreciated.

Swami has as much knowledge of college hockey as anyone I’ve come across.    And he’s a good person.