2020 Dumpster Fire (Enter at your own risk)

[SIOUXFAN97]

so cuomo says the covid got into the nursing homes from visitors most likely...NOT from Covid positive old people that WERE symptomatic that were forced into nursing homes...interesting take mr cuomo

[wxman91]

15 minutes ago, Bison06 said:

Fair argument.

Where is the line in your mind then? And who is deciding what measures are taken?

Edit: I think it fair to note that many people fight for their right to dress or not dress the way they feel is appropriate. Minneapolis is currently in a fight with many women who feel they should be able to be topless in public.

There is no good way to define a “line” as far as individual freedom vs common good.

However, thought exercise.  A year ago someone informs you that there would be a global pandemic and the government has declared that everyone should wear a mask in indoor public locations.  Would that have seemed all that strange?  No, you’d probably be concerned about how bad the pandemic is.

If the same person said that the government would be branding you with a bar code so that they could track immigration, you’d likely freak out.

There are clearly lines that can be crossed in terms of personal freedom.  But masks during a pandemic are so far on the “reasonable” side of the line it boggles my mind that we are even having this conversation.

[Bison06]

3 minutes ago, wxman91 said:

There is no good way to define a “line” as far as individual freedom vs common good.

However, thought exercise.  A year ago someone informs you that there would be a global pandemic and the government has declared that everyone should wear a mask in indoor public locations.  Would that have seemed all that strange?  No, you’d probably be concerned about how bad the pandemic is.

If the same person said that the government would be branding you with a bar code so that they could track immigration, you’d likely freak out.

There are clearly lines that can be crossed in terms of personal freedom.  But masks during a pandemic are so far on the “reasonable” side of the line it boggles my mind that we are even having this conversation.

So when will the mask mandate end?

[wxman91]

3 minutes ago, Bison06 said:

So when will the mask mandate end?

It would be great if we could get to a point where contract tracing was able to nail down most of the cases.  Just the fact that cases were low and steady was clearly not enough for AZ, FL, TX, et al.  I don’t know how far away ND is from that.  Clearly a very low population density has been a great help.

[NoiseInsideMyHead]

5 minutes ago, Bison06 said:

So when will the mask mandate end?

Just like the lockdowns, this is the question no one can, or will, answer.

I think it pains most people greatly to admit that the people in charge are literally flying by the seat of their pants.  But they are.  If they weren't, they could point to the exact data point(s) that necessitated the measure, so that once we drop back below, the measure may be lifted.  That's science.  Objective, and pure.

Waiting until so-and-so says so, or decides that it feels right, is most certainly NOT science.

And it begs the next logical question...if masks are so important, why did Wal*Mart wait several days between announcement and implementation?  Why is Target waiting more than 10 days?  Why is Hugo's waiting 9 days?  These questions burn yet no one seems willing to talk about them.

[Bison06]

Just now, wxman91 said:

It would be great if we could get to a point where contract tracing was able to nail down most of the cases.  Just the fact that cases were low and steady was clearly not enough for AZ, FL, TX, et al.  I don’t know how far away ND is from that.  Clearly a very low population density has been a great help.

I think for most people objecting to the mask has nothing to do with the mask. It has to do with opening the door to the next “new normal”. 
We’ve already been lied to so many times during this pandemic that it isn’t hard to understand why there is a lack of trust when a public policy maker says “just trust us, this is only until the numbers come down” sounds eerily similar to “trust us and close your business so we can flatten the curve” which quickly became “trust us just stay closed longer, it’s worth it if it saves one life”. 
If somehow, it’s impossible, citizens could be absolutely guaranteed that the mask mandate doesn’t turn into something even more demanding or infringing, most people would be ok with it. But it’s the fear of what next when you start down this road that has most people drawing this line in the sand early. I for one, completely understand that mentality.

[Hayduke1]

45 minutes ago, Oxbow6 said:

I'm sure the St. Louis Circuit Attorney  would listen to your concerns on this matter.

A true medical professional knows the value in social distancing and masks.

 

If they do not, they need to choose another line of work. 

I wouldn't go near one that didnt believe in the science.  They are dangerous. 

And real effing stupid.

Lol 

[Oxbow6]

11 minutes ago, Hayduke1 said:

A true medical professional knows the value in social distancing and masks.

 

If they do not, they need to choose another line of work. 

I wouldn't go near one that didnt believe in the science.  They are dangerous. 

And real effing stupid.

Lol 

Nowhere did I say I'm anti mask. Do I think mask are the cure for coronavirus and cancer like many here.....no. Helpful in this pandemic situation.....yes. Do I shame people for wearing one or not wearing one....no. 

[wxman91]

8 minutes ago, Bison06 said:

I think for most people objecting to the mask has nothing to do with the mask. It has to do with opening the door to the next “new normal”. 
We’ve already been lied to so many times during this pandemic that it isn’t hard to understand why there is a lack of trust when a public policy maker says “just trust us, this is only until the numbers come down” sounds eerily similar to “trust us and close your business so we can flatten the curve” which quickly became “trust us just stay closed longer, it’s worth it if it saves one life”. 
If somehow, it’s impossible, citizens could be absolutely guaranteed that the mask mandate doesn’t turn into something even more demanding or infringing, most people would be ok with it. But it’s the fear of what next when you start down this road that has most people drawing this line in the sand early. I for one, completely understand that mentality.

And I don't understand it, as I stated above, because a mask mandate is a very reasonable response to a pandemic and not an infringement on personal liberty.

You keep talking about businesses being closed.  Can you give further examples?  And how do you separate the impact of the government-mandated closures, which were limited in time and the broader issue of people not wanting to go out and do things?

Here's an interesting example.  Restaurants in the states that opened early.  This isn't government mandates beyond May, this is the public choosing to stay home.

[Bison06]

1 minute ago, wxman91 said:

And I don't understand it, as I stated above, because a mask mandate is a very reasonable response to a pandemic and not an infringement on personal liberty.

You keep talking about businesses being closed.  Can you give further examples?  And how do you separate the impact of the government-mandated closures, which were limited in time and the broader issue of people not wanting to go out and do things?

Here's an interesting example.  Restaurants in the states that opened early.  This isn't government mandates beyond May, this is the public choosing to stay home.

I had four friends file bankruptcy in June due to their gyms being forced closed.

[Hayduke1]

2 minutes ago, Oxbow6 said:

Nowhere did I say I'm anti mask. Do I think is the cure for coronavirus and cancer like many here.....no. Helpful in this pandemic situation.....yes. Do I shame people for wearing one or not wearing one....no. 

Who says it's a cure, it is a way to slow the spread, possibly lower the cases until an actual vaccine or some preventative/ cure is found. 

Real medical professionals know this and advocate it. 

Others...well.. should reconsider their professions is probably the best recommendation for everyone. 

 

[wxman91]

1 minute ago, Bison06 said:

I had four friends file bankruptcy in June due to their gyms being forced closed.

Yup, bad business to be in during COVID.  As I mentioned earlier, I think there is a good case for a targeted rescue (bailout) of particularly hard hit small-business industries (bars, theaters, gyms).  Effectively, pay them to stay closed.

[wxman91]

40 minutes ago, NoiseInsideMyHead said:

Here's some basic mathematical analysis, lest anyone wonder why I feel the way I do about masks:

CONSTANTS (per ND Dept of Health)

POSITIVE TESTS = 5126/135978 = 0.0377

ACTIVE INFECTIONS = 907/5126 = .177

MASK UTILIZATION (theoretical)

If XX percent of people wear a mask, your chances of encountering an unmasked individual at random are 100-XX in 100

i.e., 95% = 5 in 100 = 1 in 20 = .05, 85% = 15 in 100 = 1 in 6.67 = .15, and so on.

ASSUMPTIONS

1. Anyone who is "active" is shedding virus (doubtful, but I'll err on the side of extreme caution) = 0.177

2. Contraction subsequent to exposure occurs 1 in 4 times (likely very high, but haven't seen data) = 0.25

3. If you contract the virus, your odds of getting sick are the same as the overall positive rate in ND = 0.0377

(Rate of encounter) X (ND positive rate) X (ND active case, i.e. shedding virus) X (Odds of getting infected) X (ND Positive rate) = your odds of getting sick 

I recently saw someone online say that 50% isn't 100%, but it's better than 0.  I tend to agree.

So, at 65%, which I think is fairly representative (if not conservative) of the number of people who are WILLINGLY (i.e., pre-mandates) wearing a mask in and around GF, your odds of getting sick from a random community encounter are about 1 in 45,000.  Pretty low, right?  And think, NO STRIFE over forcing anyone to do anything.  Free will is a powerful tool.

At 75% adoption, your odds are 1 in 63,000.  Better, but honestly, how much?

At 85%, 1 in 106,000.  Again, better.  But at what cost?  Civil harmony?  People just getting along?

At 95%, which is a pipe dream, you're at 1 in 318,000.  But you've divided friends, family, and neighbors, and burdened the community with enforcement to get to this point.

My thesis is that FIGHTING ABOUT MASKS is doing more societal harm than the virus itself, and that the quantifiable benefit of imposing masks on others does not result in significantly reduced risk to any person.  The variance in mask utilization from 65 to 95% is about the functional equivalent of adding or subtracting a ball (or a specific range of numbers) to the PowerBall drawing.  Yes, it changes the odds mathematically, but it doesn't change the fact that you are still extremely unlikely to win the jackpot.

I'm trying to wrap my head around the rate of encounter metric.  Would the final definition then be the chance that you'd get COVID per encounter?

You do recognize that mask wearing is much more about transmitting than receiving the virus, right?

[Oxbow6]

4 minutes ago, Hayduke1 said:

Who says it's a cure, it is a way to slow the spread, possibly lower the cases until an actual vaccine or some preventative/ cure is found. 

Real medical professionals know this and advocate it. 

Others...well.. should reconsider their professions is probably the best recommendation for everyone. 

 

Where have I told people not to wear masks?  I do believe people can chose for themselves to wear a mask if they want to or not. 

[Bison06]

8 minutes ago, wxman91 said:

Yup, bad business to be in during COVID.  As I mentioned earlier, I think there is a good case for a targeted rescue (bailout) of particularly hard hit small-business industries (bars, theaters, gyms).  Effectively, pay them to stay closed.

The price tag on that would be unimaginable on top of what we’ve already done. Macroeconomics is not a strong point of mine, but I do know that all these bailouts are going to have significant long term consequences on our country.

wouldnt it have been easier to let business stay open and let the people who are scared or vulnerable make the decision for themselves? Why must the government be involved so much, people can make their own decisions about which businesses they’d like to patronize.

[Bison06]

20 minutes ago, wxman91 said:

And I don't understand it, as I stated above, because a mask mandate is a very reasonable response to a pandemic and not an infringement on personal liberty.

You keep talking about businesses being closed.  Can you give further examples?  And how do you separate the impact of the government-mandated closures, which were limited in time and the broader issue of people not wanting to go out and do things?

Here's an interesting example.  Restaurants in the states that opened early.  This isn't government mandates beyond May, this is the public choosing to stay home.

We are coming at this from positions that will likely never see eye to eye. You seem to trust the government has your best interests in mind, which is surprising given who the current president is and your stated opinion of his politics. I simply do not trust the government, I don’t see them as even in the top 15% of most intelligent and effective people in our society. 

[NoiseInsideMyHead]

Just now, wxman91 said:

I'm trying to wrap my head around the rate of encounter metric.  Would the final definition then be the chance that you'd get COVID per encounter?

You do recognize that mask wearing is much more about transmitting than receiving the virus, right?

What I recognize is that masks have become a symbolic gesture, low-hanging fruit for politicians and policymakers, and a security blanket and rallying point for those who choose to wear them.

I like my odds, I trust my immune system.  If this is a global killer, so be it. I'm not going to go down cowering.  If it's not, all the better.  If I am medically compromised and thus, destined to die from COVID, I don't have a problem with that.  I am comfortable with my own mortality.

I submit that masks are now more about solidarity than science, as the collective harm to the psyche of early adopters if it is ultimately proven that masks were ineffective will alone ensure that mask mandates persist far longer than they ever should have.  No one wants to feel like they sacrificed for nothing.

And please don't get me started about the difference between 'wearing a mask because I have to' and 'proper utilization.'  Wearing one improperly is enough to get you in the grocery store, but it does little or nothing to achieve its intended aim.

I've said it before in this thread...life is about risks and choices.  I would prefer to be left to make my own decisions.

[Goon]

This is interesting. 

 

[Hayduke1]

20 minutes ago, NoiseInsideMyHead said:

 

I've said it before in this thread...life is about risks and choices.  I would prefer to be left to make my own decisions.

What you are really saying is that you prefer to make choices that may endanger others.  Not unlike driving drunk.  

Maybe you think you could down a few Jack and Cokes in short order and drive down the road and you won't hurt anyone.  That could be true.

Maybe you can wander around in public without a mask and not hurt anyone.  That could also be true.

 

But... It really is selfish to believe that doing either won't be harmful to others.  Because, neither could be true. 

Medical professionals know that...

[NoiseInsideMyHead]

Just now, Hayduke1 said:

What you are really saying is that you prefer to make choices that may endanger others.  Not unlike driving drunk.  

Maybe you think you could down a few Jack and Cokes in short order and drive down the road and you won't hurt anyone.  That could be true.

Maybe you can wander around in public without a mask and not hurt anyone.  That could also be true.

But... It really is selfish to believe that doing either won't be harmful to others.  Because, neither could be true. 

I'll live with that, because I know that others can wear masks if they choose to do so. And sharing the planet with other humans - and contagion - is part of the deal. Nobody is guaranteed not to get sick. For all this talk of "doing things for other people" or "having no concern for your fellow man," I defy anyone to know what is in my heart - and what good I have done - merely by seeing me in public with an uncovered face.

And I don't drink and drive.

So there you go.

[Hayduke1]

6 minutes ago, NoiseInsideMyHead said:

I'll live with that, because I know that others can wear masks if they choose to do so. And sharing the planet with other humans - and contagion - is part of the deal. Nobody is guaranteed not to get sick. For all this talk of "doing things for other people" or "having no concern for your fellow man," I defy anyone to know what is in my heart - and what good I have done - merely by seeing me in public with an uncovered face.

And I don't drink and drive.

So there you go.

Ummm...

Wearing a mask helps your germs from spreading over a distance.   

Others wear their masks not so much to protect themselves, but to protect...you.

You obviously think so little of others you have justified this in a real twisted way.  

Medical professionals know this and that's why they advocate for all to wear a mask. If they don't, they truly are a danger to society. 

[NoiseInsideMyHead]

3 minutes ago, Hayduke1 said:

Ummm...

Wearing a mask helps your germs from spreading over a distance.   

Others wear their masks not so much to protect themselves, but to protect...you.

You obviously think so little of others you have justified this in a real twisted way.  

Medical professionals know this and that's why they advocate for all to wear a mask. If they don't, they truly are a danger to society. 

You do you, dude.

[TheFlop]

22 minutes ago, Hayduke1 said:

What you are really saying is that you prefer to make choices that may endanger others.  Not unlike driving drunk.  

Maybe you think you could down a few Jack and Cokes in short order and drive down the road and you won't hurt anyone.  That could be true.

Maybe you can wander around in public without a mask and not hurt anyone.  That could also be true.

 

But... It really is selfish to believe that doing either won't be harmful to others.  Because, neither could be true. 

Medical professionals know that...

Ahhh the old drinking and driving example.....another weak comparison on your part (which we are all getting used to).  If I don't drink and drive....that guarantees that I won't hit you with my car while I'm drunk........100% guaranteed........On the flip side, fora required non-medical grade fabric face mask to be effective you would 1) Need to depend on someone wearing it correctly (including people that can't get out of bed in the morning without someone telling them how to do it)  2) Need some measure of thickness to the fabric (guess what....those cool under armour ones you could spit a lougie through if you wanted to they Are so breathable 3) Need guarantees that Covid isn't spread via aerosol (still very much up in the air) 3) Hope that you don't touch the same knob, handle, rail, etc that said person that put their mask on wrong touched just before you did.....etc.  

All in the name of buckling the economy for a virus that 99.9% of the population will never suffer any I'll effects of.  

[Hayduke1]

4 minutes ago, NoiseInsideMyHead said:

You do you, dude.

And...you continue your selfishness. 

True medical professionals are correct. We are safer by all wearing masks. 

[Hayduke1]

4 minutes ago, TheFlop said:

Ahhh the old drinking and driving example.....another weak comparison on your part (which we are all getting used to).  If I don't drink and drive....that guarantees that I won't hit you with my car while I'm drunk........100% guaranteed........On the flip side, fora required non-medical grade fabric face mask to be effective you would 1) Need to depend on someone wearing it correctly (including people that can't get out of bed in the morning without someone telling them how to do it)  2) Need some measure of thickness to the fabric (guess what....those cool under armour ones you could spit a lougie through if you wanted to they Are so breathable 3) Need guarantees that Covid isn't spread via aerosol (still very much up in the air) 3) Hope that you don't touch the same knob, handle, rail, etc that said person that put their mask on wrong touched just before you did.....etc.  

All in the name of buckling the economy for a virus that 99.9% of the population will never suffer any I'll effects of.  

While not caring about others.  It's the Trump cult way.

True medical professionals advocate the use of facemasks for all to help slow the spread of Covid 19.

Those medical workers that dont advocate their us are considered...quacks. 

They havent earned the right to be called professionals.