New Hospital Facility in GF

[OgieOgilthorpe]

1 minute ago, UNDBIZ said:

I don't know much about the new Trinity building, but Trinity is generally the worst hospital in North Dakota by a wide margin.

I'd argue Atlru takes that crown with Trinity close behind 

[fightingsioux4life]

3 minutes ago, OgieOgilthorpe said:

That's a little exaggerated. There are many regions around the country that are seeing growth far beyond what we're seeing in B/M and F/M areas. The F/M area just barely cracks the top 20 in the US so I'm assuming GF isn't even near the top 250...but I get your point. There are many many regions where GF would be the shining star still. 

So GF is mainly missing out on the growth due to not being the capital like Biz, not being on the far edge of the oil boom like Minot and little bit of Biz, and just isn't named Fargo who is a little closer to MNPLS to feed off of. 

For the record, I think it's comical listening to F/M residents speak of their city like it's a giant metro. And when they talk about MNPLS it's like they bow down to them as the megacity of the world. I rarely have the heart to explain to them how small Fargo actually is when you step back and look at the US. They'll be lucky to pass West Valley City for the 199th largest city in the US. Ever heard of it? No? Well, then no one else outside of the upper mid west has ever heard of Fargo either. 

People in Minneapolis-St. Paul would laugh until their sides hurt if they heard this. People in Chicago would laugh even harder.

[geaux_sioux]

14 minutes ago, OgieOgilthorpe said:

I'd argue Atlru takes that crown with Trinity close behind 

Altru has a few departments that are atrocious. 

[The Sicatoka]

26 minutes ago, OgieOgilthorpe said:

They'll be lucky to pass West Valley City ... 

Most people call "West Valley City" ... Sanborn.  

Oh, you mean the one in Utah.  

[andtheHomeoftheSIOUX!!]

It should be noted that Rapid City and Sioux Falls both have had good growth as well as cities in Montana (Billings, Bozeman, Missoula) with exception of Great Falls.  

[northernraider]

I do city comparison a lot for work so data is important to me:

Fargo is the 222nd most populous city, right between Norman, OK and Simi Valley, CA. As a comparison, Sioux Falls is 140th.

I always find MSA as a better measure of population, with Fargo #189 between Yakima, WA and Tuscaloosa, AL. Sioux Falls MSA is #184, Duluth #172,  Grand Forks #352 and Bismarck #303, St. Cloud 222, Rapid City #282 

Minot will likely be a MSA after the next census

[OgieOgilthorpe]

1 hour ago, OgieOgilthorpe said:

There's nothing negative about slow and steady. If GF could keep up this pace that would be great. I'm sure you're aware of the problems uncontrolled populations can cause for communities based off of what happened in Williston, Dickinson and Minot. It's not good. 

I'm honestly just mainly curious what has made GF miss out on these larger population increases we're seeing all around them? They're seeing growth yes, which is great, but for comparison since 2010 smaller Minot has grown roughly 12,000 people (14,000 at one point), Bismarck has grown roughly 20,000 people (not to mention  Mandan's 7,000 or Lincoln's 2,000), Fargo has grown 35,000 people (not to mention WF's 20,000 or moorhead's 5,000) and GF has only seen about 8,000 (with virtually no growth in EGF or Thompson). Seemed alarming to me that Bismarck's ugly little brother has seen the same growth as the entire GF metro. 

 

WOW sorry for the error on this. GF's population growth in that time was actually only about 5,000 not 8,000. So that means since 2010, Mandan has seen a larger population growth than GF while being half the size. Does that surprise anyone as much as it does me? 

[Hammersmith]

2 hours ago, OgieOgilthorpe said:

WOW sorry for the error on this. GF's population growth in that time was actually only about 5,000 not 8,000. So that means since 2010, Mandan has seen a larger population growth than GF while being half the size. Does that surprise anyone as much as it does me? 

I agree with northernraider in using MSAs instead of individual cities. By that respect, GF's growth rate is towards the bottom of the four-state MSA(ND, SD, MN, MT) and the ND micropolitan statistical areas.

Here is the list for the sake of discussion: (sorted by growth rate)

MSA Growth 2010-18	 2018 Pop
+53.30%	Williston*	   34,337
+32.79%	Dickinson*	   32,133
+17.58%	Fargo		  245,471
+16.38%	Sioux Falls	  265,653
+15.60%	Bismarck	  132,678
+13.21%	Minot		   78,723
+10.51%	Rapid City	  148,749
+ 8.68%	Missoula	  118,791
+ 8.37%	Minneapolis	3,629,190
+ 8.02%	Billings	  171,677
+ 6.25%	Rochester	  219,802
+ 5.66%	St. Cloud	  199,801
+ 5.07%	Mankato		  101,647
+ 3.90%	Grand Forks	  102,299
+ 0.39%	Great Falls	   81,643
+ 0.14%	Jamestown*	   21,129
+ 0.13%	Wahpeton*	   22,927
- 0.35%	Duluth		  278,799

*designated as micropolitan statistical areas(μSAs); all others are metropolitan statistical areas(MSAs)
this list includes all ND/SD/MN/MT MSAs and all ND μSAs

 

[geaux_sioux]

17 minutes ago, Hammersmith said:

I agree with northernraider in using MSAs instead of individual cities. By that respect, GF's growth rate is towards the bottom of the four-state MSA(ND, SD, MN, MT) and the ND micropolitan statistical areas.

Here is the list for the sake of discussion: (sorted by growth rate)

MSA Growth 2010-18	 2018 Pop
+53.30%	Williston*	   34,337
+32.79%	Dickinson*	   32,133
+17.58%	Fargo		  245,471
+16.38%	Sioux Falls	  265,653
+15.60%	Bismarck	  132,678
+13.21%	Minot		   78,723
+10.51%	Rapid City	  148,749
+ 8.68%	Missoula	  118,791
+ 8.37%	Minneapolis	3,629,190
+ 8.02%	Billings	  171,677
+ 6.25%	Rochester	  219,802
+ 5.66%	St. Cloud	  199,801
+ 5.07%	Mankato		  101,647
+ 3.90%	Grand Forks	  102,299
+ 0.39%	Great Falls	   81,643
+ 0.14%	Jamestown*	   21,129
+ 0.13%	Wahpeton*	   22,927
- 0.35%	Duluth		  278,799

*designated as micropolitan statistical areas(μSAs); all others are metropolitan statistical areas(MSAs)
this list includes all ND/SD/MN/MT MSAs and all ND μSAs

 

Nice numbers. I wonder where the population of Grand Forks would be without the 97 flood. It took a long time to recover from that and you could argue it’s ongoing which is ridiculous. I wish GF would be more aggressive like Fargo has been. 

[OgieOgilthorpe]

18 minutes ago, Hammersmith said:

I agree with northernraider in using MSAs instead of individual cities. By that respect, GF's growth rate is towards the bottom of the four-state MSA(ND, SD, MN, MT) and the ND micropolitan statistical areas.

Here is the list for the sake of discussion: (sorted by growth rate)

MSA Growth 2010-18	 2018 Pop
+53.30%	Williston*	   34,337
+32.79%	Dickinson*	   32,133
+17.58%	Fargo		  245,471
+16.38%	Sioux Falls	  265,653
+15.60%	Bismarck	  132,678
+13.21%	Minot		   78,723
+10.51%	Rapid City	  148,749
+ 8.68%	Missoula	  118,791
+ 8.37%	Minneapolis	3,629,190
+ 8.02%	Billings	  171,677
+ 6.25%	Rochester	  219,802
+ 5.66%	St. Cloud	  199,801
+ 5.07%	Mankato		  101,647
+ 3.90%	Grand Forks	  102,299
+ 0.39%	Great Falls	   81,643
+ 0.14%	Jamestown*	   21,129
+ 0.13%	Wahpeton*	   22,927
- 0.35%	Duluth		  278,799

*designated as micropolitan statistical areas(μSAs); all others are metropolitan statistical areas(MSAs)
this list includes all ND/SD/MN/MT MSAs and all ND μSAs

 

Thanks for the data! 

[Shawn-O]

I blame the GOBC for the anemic growth.   

[tnt]

6 minutes ago, geaux_sioux said:

Nice numbers. I wonder where the population of Grand Forks would be without the 97 flood. It took a long time to recover from that and you could argue it’s ongoing which is ridiculous. I wish GF would be more aggressive like Fargo has been. 

With a part time mayor that has only increased cost of living in the city while the wages haven’t kept pace, is it any wonder why Grand Forks is stagnant right now.  Like you say we need to get aggressive, but I don’t see that with a mayor that has no concept of economic development.

[OgieOgilthorpe]

21 minutes ago, Hammersmith said:

I agree with northernraider in using MSAs instead of individual cities. By that respect, GF's growth rate is towards the bottom of the four-state MSA(ND, SD, MN, MT) and the ND micropolitan statistical areas.

Here is the list for the sake of discussion: (sorted by growth rate)

MSA Growth 2010-18	 2018 Pop
+53.30%	Williston*	   34,337
+32.79%	Dickinson*	   32,133
+17.58%	Fargo		  245,471
+16.38%	Sioux Falls	  265,653
+15.60%	Bismarck	  132,678
+13.21%	Minot		   78,723
+10.51%	Rapid City	  148,749
+ 8.68%	Missoula	  118,791
+ 8.37%	Minneapolis	3,629,190
+ 8.02%	Billings	  171,677
+ 6.25%	Rochester	  219,802
+ 5.66%	St. Cloud	  199,801
+ 5.07%	Mankato		  101,647
+ 3.90%	Grand Forks	  102,299
+ 0.39%	Great Falls	   81,643
+ 0.14%	Jamestown*	   21,129
+ 0.13%	Wahpeton*	   22,927
- 0.35%	Duluth		  278,799

*designated as micropolitan statistical areas(μSAs); all others are metropolitan statistical areas(MSAs)
this list includes all ND/SD/MN/MT MSAs and all ND μSAs

 

So from this data, the main takeaways that I can see are---

1. ND is dominating the population growth/movement in this quad-state region by showing 5 of the top 6 on this list. 

2. Of the 6 largest ND MSAs , it appears that Grand Forks is the only one that can't gain traction compared to it's peers. (Wahp, J-town, DL, VC are a large step down from the main 6 hubs in ND in my opinon).

3. Oil and geographical location mostly explain it all for me, but the stunted growth of GF is still curious. 

[geaux_sioux]

2 minutes ago, OgieOgilthorpe said:

So from this data, the main takeaways that I can see are---

1. ND is dominating the population growth/movement in this quad-state region by showing 5 of the top 6 on this list. 

2. Of the 6 largest ND MSAs , it appears that Grand Forks is the only one that can't gain traction compared to it's peers. (Wahp, J-town, DL, VC are a large step down from the main 6 hubs in ND in my opinon).

3. Oil and geographical location mostly explain it all for me, but the stunted growth of GF is still curious. 

To 3, I think it’s a mix of circumstance and attitude. GF isn’t business friendly or growth minded. GOBC don’t want any outsiders growing the pie and taking slices. And if you look at a population growth graph it’s pretty clear that it took a very long time to fully recover from the flood. I wonder how Minot would be doing if it wasn’t for the current oil climate out west.

[OgieOgilthorpe]

3 minutes ago, tnt said:

With a part time mayor that has only increased cost of living in the city while the wages haven’t kept pace, is it any wonder why Grand Forks is stagnant right now.  Like you say we need to get aggressive, but I don’t see that with a mayor that has no concept of economic development.

How long has the current mayor held that position, and when was the last vote? It appears like some new blood with some new ideas is much needed there. Probably not as much as the mess Minot has going on but oil will always bring in bodies no matter how badly things are planned out and set up. 

I think the potential for some pretty substantial growth is still possible in GF in the near future. It's unfortunate that it appears it's already missed out on quite a bit of it however. 

One positive "city" project that I know of is that high rise apartment complex going up downtown that I saw. Also a new grocery store DT? I think that's a great idea for keeping foot traffic up and keeping people in rentals DT. Anything else like that happening? 

[Nodak78]

5 minutes ago, geaux_sioux said:

To 3, I think it’s a mix of circumstance and attitude. GF isn’t business friendly or growth minded. GOBC don’t want any outsiders growing the pie and taking slices. And if you look at a population growth graph it’s pretty clear that it took a very long time to fully recover from the flood. I wonder how Minot would be doing if it wasn’t for the current oil climate out west.

spot on

[OgieOgilthorpe]

9 minutes ago, geaux_sioux said:

To 3, I think it’s a mix of circumstance and attitude. GF isn’t business friendly or growth minded. GOBC don’t want any outsiders growing the pie and taking slices. And if you look at a population growth graph it’s pretty clear that it took a very long time to fully recover from the flood. I wonder how Minot would be doing if it wasn’t for the current oil climate out west.

Yes Grand Forks lost out on some exponential growth by losing 5,000+ citizens from 97 to 99. That chink in the chain, and several steps back has had a very long term effect on the growth for sure. 

The silver lining to some of these catastrophic floods/events is that some of the much needed updates are forced to be done, and forces a lot of new construction and face lifts. I think Grand Forks did 4x the job that Minot has done with recovery and rebound in terms of aesthetics. 

[OgieOgilthorpe]

8 minutes ago, geaux_sioux said:

To 3, I think it’s a mix of circumstance and attitude. GF isn’t business friendly or growth minded. GOBC don’t want any outsiders growing the pie and taking slices. And if you look at a population growth graph it’s pretty clear that it took a very long time to fully recover from the flood. I wonder how Minot would be doing if it wasn’t for the current oil climate out west.

What is GOBC?

[UNDBIZ]

1 minute ago, OgieOgilthorpe said:

What is GOBC 

Good old boys club

[forksandspoons]

6 minutes ago, OgieOgilthorpe said:

How long has the current mayor held that position, and when was the last vote? It appears like some new blood with some new ideas is much needed there. Probably not as much as the mess Minot has going on but oil will always bring in bodies no matter how badly things are planned out and set up. 

I think the potential for some pretty substantial growth is still possible in GF in the near future. It's unfortunate that it appears it's already missed out on quite a bit of it however. 

One positive "city" project that I know of is that high rise apartment complex going up downtown that I saw. Also a new grocery store DT? I think that's a great idea for keeping foot traffic up and keeping people in rentals DT. Anything else like that happening? 

Another building on the lot two doors down from the condos you referred to above, on the corner of Demers and 4th. Also a six story building near the Herald with commercial space and a couple hundred apartments. I think the St Johns building (across from town square) is getting a complete overhaul. Another apartment building near the Townhouse Hotel. And a complete revamp of the street and town square. I think  there's more i am missing. 

[OgieOgilthorpe]

1 minute ago, forksandspoons said:

Another building on the two doors down from the condos you referred to above, on the corner of Demers and 4th. Also a six story building near the Herald with commercial space and a couple hundred apartments. I think the St Johns building (across from town square) is getting a complete overhaul. Another apartment building near the Townhouse Hotel. And a complete revamp of the street and town square. I think  there's more i am missing. 

I know Bismarck is doing an unbelievable over-haul to their downtown area over a 4-5 year span. It sounds like Grand Forks is making the effort and is doing something similar but maybe on a smaller scale. 

[OgieOgilthorpe]

14 minutes ago, geaux_sioux said:

To 3, I think it’s a mix of circumstance and attitude. GF isn’t business friendly or growth minded. GOBC don’t want any outsiders growing the pie and taking slices. And if you look at a population growth graph it’s pretty clear that it took a very long time to fully recover from the flood. I wonder how Minot would be doing if it wasn’t for the current oil climate out west.

I don't even want to think about it because it would be unbelievably bad. 

[nodak651]

In regard to Altru's new hospital and the smaller budget.  It doesn't include the other phases of construction that they have planned, correct?  

[UNDBIZ]

7 minutes ago, OgieOgilthorpe said:

I know Bismarck is doing an unbelievable over-haul to their downtown area over a 4-5 year span. It sounds like Grand Forks is making the effort and is doing something similar but maybe on a smaller scale. 

I've heard FiveSouth is dead in Bismarck. Other than permanently 3 laning Main, what else is planned?

[Hammersmith]

5 minutes ago, geaux_sioux said:

Nice numbers. I wonder where the population of Grand Forks would be without the 97 flood. It took a long time to recover from that and you could argue it’s ongoing which is ridiculous. I wish GF would be more aggressive like Fargo has been. 

It's easy and feels good to blame the flood because it was a natural disaster and thus no one's fault, but I don't think it is the true cause of the situation. I would suggest it was far more about the reduction of the GF AFB than the flood. If the jobs were there, everything else would have quickly followed.

When it comes right down to it, GF will never be able to compete directly against Fargo for one simple reason: I-94. A city with two interstate highways will always have a huge advantage over a city with only one. Same thing with rail lines. Without the development of oil out west, Fargo would likely be the only ND city with double digit growth. And any growth in GF, BisMan or Minot would have been just rural to urban cannibalization. It is what it is.

Since it's unlikely that we'll find a major new resource under NE ND, to change things, GF would have to bring in a new, major industry that needs a large workforce. And that's a hard sell. If the industry is something that uses local materials, why not chose Fargo which has easier shipping access? If it doesn't use local materials, why choose an area where a workforce is hard to find? Go somewhere where unemployment is higher. If GF tries to leverage its available assets like the AFB or UND's aviation department, why should most aviation companies chose a location with bad weather and difficult access over a location like TX, NV, CA or others? And the industries that do choose to build in GF are likely going to be highly automated and not bring in that many new jobs.

I grew up in Wahp during the glory years of 3M, WCCO and NDSCS at it's height. Since then, 3M shut down, WCCO shrank and automated, and NDSCS scaled way back due to funding changes in Bismarck. The city lost around a quarter of it's jobs and population. In the decade that followed, a couple new plants were built, including a corn processing plant. People thought it could be the start of bringing things back. But the corn plant and the other new ventures were so highly automated that it didn't mean much to the community. What's the addition of 100 jobs when you're trying to recover from losing 2,000?

Stark reality: A single new project in Fargo(Aldevron) is likely to bring in more new jobs to Fargo(>800) than every current new project in GF combined that's beyond the drawing board stage. I just don't know how you compete with that. But you probably should look to UND(Aldevron was started by two NDSU students and was an early tenant of the NDSU R&D Park). 

https://www.inforum.com/business/technology/1355795-Fargo-biotech-firm-announces-major-expansion-to-add-189000-square-feet-employ-over-1000