The New Nickname vs. No Nickname Debate Thread

[Fetch]

Does anyone think Kelly will have any spite in the final decision

[NoiseInsideMyHead]

Does anyone think Kelly will have any spite in the final decision

 

Not a chance.

[UND1983]

We are the aggrieved party here - does any sane person (PC zealots are not sane, in case that clarification is needed) really believe the NCAA negotiated in good faith?  Maybe the stubbornness borne from the blood of my Scottish ancestors flowing through me is responsible, but it was the NCAA and their PC zealot allies that picked this fight - if they didn't want it, they shouldn't have picked it.  I fully recognize that I am likely to lose in the end (indeed almost certainly have already lost), but I am not going to yield anything willingly - if the PC bastards want it, I'm going to make them fight for every bit of it, not lay down like some beaten dog - you want to take something from me, you might get it, but I'm going to fight you all the damn way.  This is one (probably the main) reason why I prefer no nickname into perpetuity - even though one will likely be chosen either now or in the future.  I'm not willing to go all the way to a new nickname without a fight.  I think that fight is based on principle and is worth it - and I do not believe going without a nickname causes any harm to UND, its athletes, or its fans - I personally like the new no nickname apparel and have purchased several items.  It's not as appealing as the old Fighting Sioux items, but I prefer it to anything with any other nickname on it and will likely purchase only "UND" items ever again.  New students coming to UND will have to buy something, so they will buy the no nickname items if that is all that is available and if the items were to branded with a new lame name or logo, I do not believe it will benefit sales.  I do not believe fans of UND and its athletics will care less for either if UND were to continue with no nickname.  And at the end of the day, if we are forced at gunpoint to select a new name, I think the current process is converging on an alternative, so this whole process has not been "for nothing", as some contend.  As I say, I believe there is a principle involved, and I believe further that the cost for continuing to fight for that principle is negligible - that being the case, if this process is going too slowly for the NCAA, Bobby Kelley and all the other PC zealots, and that causes them discomfort and makes them unhappy - GOOD - that is entirely what they asked for and I am perfectly willing to provide it.  Some - perhaps many - perhaps even most of you - will think I am being stupid - I don't care what anybody else thinks - I think I am being honorable and no amount of arguing, belittling, cajoling, pleading etc. is ever going to have me think otherwise.

 

PS - The time to have confronted Kelley was at the time of his response to the "You can take our name but not our pride" sorority sign incident.  At that time he should have been shouted down from all quarters, put in his place and run out of town on a rail.  Instead there was nothing - we should all hang our heads in shame.

Geez, Buck Up Butter Cup. You need more to worry about, wow.

[DamStrait]

Geez, Buck Up Butter Cup. You need more to worry about, wow.

Ummm....I'm not the one wilting here.....sssoooo your response doesn't really make any sense....just so you know....

[bigskyvikes]

Plurality...

Oh, for the love of Sweet Baby Jesus, please tell me you didn't attend UND...

By the way smart ass I went to Penn state!

Never been a by the book writer or talker if that makes you feel better?

[The Sicatoka]

Words have meanings. If you invent your own meanings nobody can understand you.

[rochsioux]

We are the aggrieved party here - does any sane person (PC zealots are not sane, in case that clarification is needed) really believe the NCAA negotiated in good faith? Maybe the stubbornness borne from the blood of my Scottish ancestors flowing through me is responsible, but it was the NCAA and their PC zealot allies that picked this fight - if they didn't want it, they shouldn't have picked it. I fully recognize that I am likely to lose in the end (indeed almost certainly have already lost), but I am not going to yield anything willingly - if the PC bastards want it, I'm going to make them fight for every bit of it, not lay down like some beaten dog - you want to take something from me, you might get it, but I'm going to fight you all the damn way. This is one (probably the main) reason why I prefer no nickname into perpetuity - even though one will likely be chosen either now or in the future. I'm not willing to go all the way to a new nickname without a fight. I think that fight is based on principle and is worth it - and I do not believe going without a nickname causes any harm to UND, its athletes, or its fans - I personally like the new no nickname apparel and have purchased several items. It's not as appealing as the old Fighting Sioux items, but I prefer it to anything with any other nickname on it and will likely purchase only "UND" items ever again. New students coming to UND will have to buy something, so they will buy the no nickname items if that is all that is available and if the items were to branded with a new lame name or logo, I do not believe it will benefit sales. I do not believe fans of UND and its athletics will care less for either if UND were to continue with no nickname. And at the end of the day, if we are forced at gunpoint to select a new name, I think the current process is converging on an alternative, so this whole process has not been "for nothing", as some contend. As I say, I believe there is a principle involved, and I believe further that the cost for continuing to fight for that principle is negligible - that being the case, if this process is going too slowly for the NCAA, Bobby Kelley and all the other PC zealots, and that causes them discomfort and makes them unhappy - GOOD - that is entirely what they asked for and I am perfectly willing to provide it. Some - perhaps many - perhaps even most of you - will think I am being stupid - I don't care what anybody else thinks - I think I am being honorable and no amount of arguing, belittling, cajoling, pleading etc. is ever going to have me think otherwise.

PS - The time to have confronted Kelley was at the time of his response to the "You can take our name but not our pride" sorority sign incident. At that time he should have been shouted down from all quarters, put in his place and run out of town on a rail. Instead there was nothing - we should all hang our heads in shame.

Excellent post !

[Oxbow6]

Words have meanings. If you invent your own meanings nobody can understand you.

See "Ebonics"..........

[CMSioux]

Does anyone think Kelly will have any spite in the final decision

You are allowed to ask the question but I really hope you aren't serious. Have you ever met the man? While message boards allow anyone to bash anyone those who know more than what is posted on a message board would know how much the man has invested in UND. Running the Flag School school of North Dakota is not easy, decisions are not always popular - he knew that the nickname would be an albatross his entire tenure and as emotional an issue as it is - he still had a University to run. Overall UND is in a very good place right now - I'd like to know how anyone could have handled the nickname issue that would not have had different groups of minions angry.

[Siouxphan27]

UND Albatrosses! Makes perfect sense!

[bigskyvikes]

Words have meanings. If you invent your own meanings nobody can understand you.

Yep, funny though, Wikipedia says this,

A majority is a subset of a set consisting of more than half of the set's elements. This can be compared to a plurality, which is a subset larger than any other subset considered; i.e. a plurality is not necessarily a majority as the largest subset considered may consist of less than half the set's elements. *******In British English the term majority is also alternatively used to refer to the winning margin, i.e. the number of votes separating the first-place finisher from the second-place finisher.*******

Wiki isn't trying to be an asshole though! Or claiming that use is "ebonics". This is like watching an episode of The Big Bang Theory. I love that show, but you know what Leonard always says they are?

Edit, sorry to everyone else discussing the topic.

[scpa0305]

Representative if all of us on this site were from GF though..........

Haha, no.

[Blackheart]

We done here yet? Just checking in; good to see another nickname thread going.

[90siouxfan]

No nickname

We had a great one

All good ones are taken

We are SOL

The old nickname will eventually fade much like the people that it described

it is a travesty but reality

Chippewa win, world loses

[4evrSIOUX]

We are the aggrieved party here - does any sane person (PC zealots are not sane, in case that clarification is needed) really believe the NCAA negotiated in good faith?  Maybe the stubbornness borne from the blood of my Scottish ancestors flowing through me is responsible, but it was the NCAA and their PC zealot allies that picked this fight - if they didn't want it, they shouldn't have picked it.  I fully recognize that I am likely to lose in the end (indeed almost certainly have already lost), but I am not going to yield anything willingly - if the PC bastards want it, I'm going to make them fight for every bit of it, not lay down like some beaten dog - you want to take something from me, you might get it, but I'm going to fight you all the damn way.  This is one (probably the main) reason why I prefer no nickname into perpetuity - even though one will likely be chosen either now or in the future.  I'm not willing to go all the way to a new nickname without a fight.  I think that fight is based on principle and is worth it - and I do not believe going without a nickname causes any harm to UND, its athletes, or its fans - I personally like the new no nickname apparel and have purchased several items.  It's not as appealing as the old Fighting Sioux items, but I prefer it to anything with any other nickname on it and will likely purchase only "UND" items ever again.  New students coming to UND will have to buy something, so they will buy the no nickname items if that is all that is available and if the items were to branded with a new lame name or logo, I do not believe it will benefit sales.  I do not believe fans of UND and its athletics will care less for either if UND were to continue with no nickname.  And at the end of the day, if we are forced at gunpoint to select a new name, I think the current process is converging on an alternative, so this whole process has not been "for nothing", as some contend.  As I say, I believe there is a principle involved, and I believe further that the cost for continuing to fight for that principle is negligible - that being the case, if this process is going too slowly for the NCAA, Bobby Kelley and all the other PC zealots, and that causes them discomfort and makes them unhappy - GOOD - that is entirely what they asked for and I am perfectly willing to provide it.  Some - perhaps many - perhaps even most of you - will think I am being stupid - I don't care what anybody else thinks - I think I am being honorable and no amount of arguing, belittling, cajoling, pleading etc. is ever going to have me think otherwise.

 

PS - The time to have confronted Kelley was at the time of his response to the "You can take our name but not our pride" sorority sign incident.  At that time he should have been shouted down from all quarters, put in his place and run out of town on a rail.  Instead there was nothing - we should all hang our heads in shame.

Great Post!

[4evrSIOUX]

If I were Kelly, I would go out on a high note and pick "North Dakota". Those that think it's time to move on will be disappointed, but those who don't want a new nickname will be happy. There is less drama with picking "North Dakota". You force a new nickname on the majority who don't want a new name.......

[Hawkster]

If I were Kelly, I would go out on a high note and pick "North Dakota". Those that think it's time to move on will be disappointed, but those who don't want a new nickname will be happy. There is less drama with picking "North Dakota". You force a new nickname on the majority who don't want a new name.......

You might as well announce we are going back to Fighting Sioux.   End result will be exactly the same.    It's time to move on and forget this nonsense about going with "no nickname" wink wink.   It's to the point I'll take anything over no name.

[Chewey]

I read Chewey's past opinions about how the Spirit Lake lawsuit was going to win in Federal court over the NCAA. I actually attended sessions in Judge Ralph Erickson's courtroom. I saw how the NCAA attorneys and how a Federal judge views these matters, first hand.

Given that track record, I temper my belief in Chewey's opinions posted here.

As someone else said, "fair enough".  Matters in court have winners and losers.  There was no shortage of people asserting that the 1969 pipe ceremony was a permanent and binding act as per Sioux traditions.  That said, the Judge gave Eunice Davidson the title of her book which has proved pretty successful and (i.e. "The Sioux Were Silenced") support for the Fighting Sioux nickname and/or no nickname is strong. 

 

As to the no nickname option, that is an entirely different issue apart from the controversy addressed in the surrender agreement.   I've stated them before but when you have 1.) Kelley himself and Karl coming out and stating that "North Dakota" is an option; 2.) No policy against offensive nicknames and logos being violated; 3.) No amendment to the surrender agreement in nearly 8 years regarding the no nickname option; 4.) An amendment to the surrender agreement regarding NA imagery at the Ralph which was clearly part of the controversy addressed in the original surrender agreement;

5.) No objection to the "cooling off period" by the NCAA (again, if you think the NCAA didn't do so out of being respectful of the trauma ND was put through, you're certifiable); 6.) The NCAA actually agreeing to ongoing sales of "Fighting Sioux" materials for multiple years and fostering the racism it sought to prevent, the position is sound. 

 

The contrast between all of this and assertions that A.) Marco Hunt was chosen by the NCAA to eff UND in the frozen four; B.) We need a new nickname - any lame nickname - for the sake of some marketing/identity benefit so that we can make $$$$ of selling all of the hot new materials and so that we don't get controlled by other teams' fans; C.) We'll be permanently on the NCAA unspoken nasty list; D.) Retaining "North Dakota" will foster an abusive and racist atmosphere on campus and UND will be sanctioned by the NCAA because the spirit of the policy against NA nicknames will have been violated; E.) Other schools/teams will make fun of us for not having a nickname/logo is stark.  This strain (dare I say "contagion"?) of hyperbole should be viewed with extreme skepticism. 

 

All of the scare tactics and paranoia surrounding the "North Dakota" option constitute validation not only that it is a viable option but also that the stakeholders and many members on this board have probably known it all along.  I think it may be probable that Kelley called the NCAA before any public assertions that it is an option were made.  The polls and interviews done by the various committees indicated, at least from what I've seen, that most people prefer "North Dakota".  If Kelley and the committee do what most people want, "North Dakota" will be retained. 

[Chewey]

I forgot to add the scare tactic that sales of "North Dakota" only stuff are way down even though sales of "Fighting Sioux" stuff are running as high as ever. 

[Chewey]

The whole process was started and is being dragged out for one reason....to decide on and institute a NEW nickname and not continue just as North Dakota without a nickname. Could I live with just being North Dakota...yes. Will that happen? IMO there is zero chance that is the ultimate result. Think of the outrage from the general public on the waste of time, effort and dollars spent to essentially come up with nothing. I am resigned to the fact that there will be a new nickname ultimately chosen........but one the will cause me to regurgate small amounts of vomit in my mouth every time I hear it.

All progress is change but not all change is progress.  If the committee determines that "North Dakota" is the option most want and "North Dakota" is retained, it will have done what it was meant to do, which is to get input from the "stakeholders" and make decisions accordingly.  If they choose something, anything just so that there is something other than "Fighting Sioux" and just so that a few people can say we've transitioned to a new nickname and logo, the process will have been a failure. 

[Siouxphan27]

Chewey for President!!!

[The Sicatoka]

I forgot to add the scare tactic that sales of "North Dakota" only stuff are way down even though sales of "Fighting Sioux" stuff are running as high as ever. 

 

Source with the sales numbers? 

[The Sicatoka]

As someone else said, "fair enough".  Matters in court have winners and losers.  There was no shortage of people asserting that the 1969 pipe ceremony was a permanent and binding act as per Sioux traditions.  That said, the Judge gave Eunice Davidson the title of her book which has proved pretty successful and (i.e. "The Sioux Were Silenced") support for the Fighting Sioux nickname and/or no nickname is strong. 

 

As to the no nickname option, that is an entirely different issue apart from the controversy addressed in the surrender agreement.   I've stated them before but when you have 1.) Kelley himself and Karl coming out and stating that "North Dakota" is an option; 2.) No policy against offensive nicknames and logos being violated; 3.) No amendment to the surrender agreement in nearly 8 years regarding the no nickname option; 4.) An amendment to the surrender agreement regarding NA imagery at the Ralph which was clearly part of the controversy addressed in the original surrender agreement;

5.) No objection to the "cooling off period" by the NCAA (again, if you think the NCAA didn't do so out of being respectful of the trauma ND was put through, you're certifiable); 6.) The NCAA actually agreeing to ongoing sales of "Fighting Sioux" materials for multiple years and fostering the racism it sought to prevent, the position is sound. 

 

 

 

You say that "no policy against offensive nickanmes and logos being violated". Are you sure, or is this more hyper-confident bluster (ala the Spirit Lake suit)? I ask this because the agreement is a contract.

 

Is one side choosing to not enforce the contract at this time? That is the right of a party to a contract. 

 

For example, paying your rent is a contract. If you're late or miss a month your landlord can choose to give you some slack (goodwill on the landlord's part) or drop the hammer on you. Can we say definitively at this point that "no policy ... being violated" or are we running on the goodwill of the NCAA* (to allow this process to play out)? 

 

You say one side is using "scare tactics". Dare I say you're providing facts that are not in evidence at this time (because we don't know if the NCAA sees us as in violation but is cutting slack for the process, and we don't know if "no nickname" is acceptable under the settlement in their eyes). 

 

 

*I can't believe I just typed that phrase. 

[Siouxperfan7]

The reason that there are many of us that don't want UND to go with no nickname is because it doen't solve anything.  I basically just kicks the can down the road and opens the door for this issue to pop up in the future. Is UND in breach of conract with the settlement agreement if they choose not to have a nickname and just be "North Dakota"?  That issue can and has been debated ad nauseum on this board and other places.  Points can be made for bothesides.  But by not having a nickname, it leaves the door open for the NCAA to take action against UND at any time down the road.  Sure there is no policy that says schools must have nicknames in their bylaws right now.  But that can change in a second.  My questiong is would you as a fan and does UND as an institution want to really walk on egg shells hoping that the no nickname desision is going to be ok with the NCAA for many years to come?  Sure Emmert may not have an issue with UND not having a new nickname.  But what about the next NCAA President after him?  They could review the settlement and decide that not having a new nickname doens't really retire the old nickname that UND agreed to retire.  Why take the risk?  We could be right back here in 5-10 years trying to come up with a new nickname.

 

Choosing a nickname now will gaurantee that this will not be an issue dwon the road.  Not selecting one leaves the door open for future problems with the NCAA. 

[UND1983]

Source with the sales numbers? 

 

Considering they don't sell the Sioux logo hardly anywhere now, it is not true that sales were sky high.  Also, I assume that UND wants to make money in the future, correct?  Sioux logo won't be available in the future so it might be hard to make money off of it.