College Hockey Expansion

[northernraider]

It is hard for me to fathom any other MN School being FBS, just seems the fan and most important donor support would just not be there. I would say MAYBE Duluth would be most likely, but the would need significant investment in the stadium

[ArchyAlum11]

8 minutes ago, northernraider said:

It is hard for me to fathom any other MN School being FBS, just seems the fan and most important donor support would just not be there. I would say MAYBE Duluth would be most likely, but the would need significant investment in the stadium

I would agree on FBS - the U of M is the only school with a ridiculous Budget that can afford all crap that comes with that, But FCS would be very doable with less money than the U of M gets for single new athletic project.

[northernraider]

Just now, ArchyAlum11 said:

I would agree on FBS - the U of M is the only school with a ridiculous Budget that can afford all crap that comes with that, But FCS would be very doable with less money than the U of M gets for single new athletic project.

I read your original post a little too fast..yes UMD, SCSU, or even UM-Mankato (maybe hire Hyden Fox ) could likely support FCS.  My  non-scientific order of likelihood is Duluth, Mankato, SCSU 

[bale31]

19 minutes ago, northernraider said:

I read your original post a little too fast..yes UMD, SCSU, or even UM-Mankato (maybe hire Hyden Fox ) could likely support FCS.  My  non-scientific order of likelihood is Duluth, Mankato, SCSU 

This is a question that has been batted around for years. I won't say it's impossible, but it's very unlikely that Mankato would go FCS in near future. And probably not in the long-term either. From a financial perspective, it's just not a good idea. There is too much Gopher loyalty in the area to expect that any of our teams would draw nearly well enough to make it financially viable. It's been difficult enough to pull hockey fans away from the Gophers when we were competing at the highest level let alone if we aren't in FBS. 

Add that to the way that the state budgets work just doesn't lend itself to and MnSCU school going D1 in all sports. The way it's set up is that MnSCU is the governing body of the the state colleges and universities (so Mankato and St. Cloud have nothing to do with the U of M) and the U of M system controls Duluth, Crookston, Morris and Rochester. The entire MnSCU budget is $2.0 billion (in 2019) for 30 state colleges and 7 state universities. Mankato's budget was $241 million in 2017. Meanwhile the U of M budget was $3.8 billion in 2017. Admittedly, I know there is a lot more that goes into the U of M like the hospital and research facilities, but their athletic department's budget was $114 million. That's 47% of the total budget or Mankato's entire university.

 

The state government just isn't set up to allow for anyone else to jump up to D1. I suspect that St. Cloud is in the same boat and Duluth is always going to be having to get the blessing of the Twin Cities campus.

[SWSiouxMN]

5 minutes ago, bale31 said:

This is a question that has been batted around for years. I won't say it's impossible, but it's very unlikely that Mankato would go FCS in near future. And probably not in the long-term either. From a financial perspective, it's just not a good idea. There is too much Gopher loyalty in the area to expect that any of our teams would draw nearly well enough to make it financially viable. It's been difficult enough to pull hockey fans away from the Gophers when we were competing at the highest level let alone if we aren't in FBS. 

Add that to the way that the state budgets work just doesn't lend itself to and MnSCU school going D1 in all sports. The way it's set up is that MnSCU is the governing body of the the state colleges and universities (so Mankato and St. Cloud have nothing to do with the U of M) and the U of M system controls Duluth, Crookston, Morris and Rochester. The entire MnSCU budget is $2.0 billion (in 2019) for 30 state colleges and 7 state universities. Mankato's budget was $241 million in 2017. Meanwhile the U of M budget was $3.8 billion in 2017. Admittedly, I know there is a lot more that goes into the U of M like the hospital and research facilities, but their athletic department's budget was $114 million. That's 47% of the total budget or Mankato's entire university.

 

The state government just isn't set up to allow for anyone else to jump up to D1. I suspect that St. Cloud is in the same boat and Duluth is always going to be having to get the blessing of the Twin Cities campus.

Plus isn’t the football stadium in need of an upgrade?

[Rebel_Sioux]

21 hours ago, bale31 said:

This is a question that has been batted around for years. I won't say it's impossible, but it's very unlikely that Mankato would go FCS in near future. And probably not in the long-term either. From a financial perspective, it's just not a good idea. There is too much Gopher loyalty in the area to expect that any of our teams would draw nearly well enough to make it financially viable. It's been difficult enough to pull hockey fans away from the Gophers when we were competing at the highest level let alone if we aren't in FBS. 

Add that to the way that the state budgets work just doesn't lend itself to and MnSCU school going D1 in all sports. The way it's set up is that MnSCU is the governing body of the the state colleges and universities (so Mankato and St. Cloud have nothing to do with the U of M) and the U of M system controls Duluth, Crookston, Morris and Rochester. The entire MnSCU budget is $2.0 billion (in 2019) for 30 state colleges and 7 state universities. Mankato's budget was $241 million in 2017. Meanwhile the U of M budget was $3.8 billion in 2017. Admittedly, I know there is a lot more that goes into the U of M like the hospital and research facilities, but their athletic department's budget was $114 million. That's 47% of the total budget or Mankato's entire university.

 

The state government just isn't set up to allow for anyone else to jump up to D1. I suspect that St. Cloud is in the same boat and Duluth is always going to be having to get the blessing of the Twin Cities campus.

What about Southwest Minnesota State? A large school like that certainly could make the jump right? (Sarcasm)

[bale31]

On 7/3/2019 at 4:14 PM, SWSiouxMN said:

Plus isn’t the football stadium in need of an upgrade?

Very much so.

[ArchyAlum11]

On 7/3/2019 at 4:14 PM, SWSiouxMN said:

Plus isn’t the football stadium in need of an upgrade?

Yeah, that's needed to happen for years, honestly at this point even if they stay D2 they would need to demolish the old stadium and build a new one, as the foundation is crumbling and the press box is something that a 5th grader could have built on the weekend with modest budget and trip to Home Depot. So yeah, I know there was a plan to completely redo the outdoor facilities a few years back, and they seem to be doing it piece meal, at this point but the football stadium design drew some criticism for being only 6000 seats, 1500 less than current capacity. Most of the finical attention has been on hockey for that last 8 years, which makes sense seeing as it is the biggest earner, the mens team actually turns a profit, the other sports turn a modest profit, though realistically like most schools that is Football and possibly Men's Basketball carrying all the other sports, so it seems reasonable to assume that now that hockey has gotten a ton of upgrades and since the basketball court was already surpassed D1 courts at similar sized schools, that it would be time for the football Stadium to get some love... however as a wise man once said "reality shats on reason".

[northernraider]

Alaska Governor is cutting 41% of the higher education budget, which includes 1200 staff members. I would be surprised if both Alaska hockey teams make it more then two years. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/07/alaska-governor-guts-state-higher-education-funding.amp

[SIOUXFAN97]

57 minutes ago, northernraider said:

Alaska Governor is cutting 41% of the higher education budget, which includes 1200 staff members. I would be surprised if both Alaska hockey teams make it more then two years. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/07/alaska-governor-guts-state-higher-education-funding.amp

1200 "staff members"....gimme a break. probably could fire 2000. 

[ubish]

On 7/3/2019 at 1:24 PM, ArchyAlum11 said:

 

2.       Force another round of realignment- So as has been discussed before, Miami and WMU are not always thrilled about the amount of long-distance travel required, Likewise Mankato and Bemidji are often less than thrilled about the long bus rides out to MI and OH. A big reason that WMU and Miami have not looked at moving into the new WCHA was the Alaska schools as well UAH, now with the AK schools like out of the Mix its entirely possible that WMU and Miami would look to reexamine their own conference membership, does this mean they will switch? Not necessarily, I imagine there will be a number of things they look into before switching, however without the Alaska schools I imagine it would be much more tempting, even if UAH was added to the new conference later to event out the numbers, that would still create just one long distance trip a year, and from a drag perspective would be only slightly worse that CC is on the NCHC. As to the NCHC it very likely that MNSU and BSU would both apply to be members and from a rankings perspective this would be at worst a lateral move for the NCHC MNSU has in the last few years ranked higher than WMU and even held the coveted no.1 spot several times both in the pairwise and pols, Bemidji has generally been with in a few places of Miami and is often in the receiving votes categories. So this move would ultimately compact the leagues geographically effectively recreating the old WCHA in the NCHC and the old CCHA in the new league, minus the Big10 and Alaska schools.

 

I can't speak for Miami, but there's no way WMU moves into the new CCHA (which is what I'm calling it) as long as our AD is still around.  She absolutely wants WMU hockey in the highest tier conference they can be in.  She want's WMU to be in a conference with schools that are all Div 1 or at the very least teams that have a huge commitment to hockey.  The only team in the new CCHA that fits that profile is BGSU.  We were fine playing the LSSUs and Northerns of the world when we also got to play Michigan, Michigan State, and Notre Dame all the time, but there's no way we'd voluntarily move our team down to play with a bunch of Gliac schools.  

The travel isn't really the huge issue that others make it out to be for WMU.  Kalamazoo has an international airport (with another a short drive away in Grand Rapids) and supplements athletic costs by playing money games against B1G teams in football and charging students an athletics fee.  

Also despite what others say, I would also expect there to be an attendance hit if WMU left the NCHC.  Sure, LSSU, and Northern are from the same state, but they traditionally haven't drawn well when playing in Kalamazoo.  We get much more excited to play Denver, SCSU or You guys than the teams from the UP (although we draw well for Ferris usually). 

[SiouxHawkGuy]

MAC just needs 3 more hockey schools.

[northernraider]

18 minutes ago, SiouxHawkGuy said:

MAC just needs 3 more hockey schools.

Central Michigan, Northern Illinois, and Buffalo 

[SiouxHawkGuy]

17 minutes ago, northernraider said:

Central Michigan, Northern Illinois, and Buffalo 

Maybe Northern can get it done before the U of I 

[The Sicatoka]

On 7/3/2019 at 2:53 PM, ArchyAlum11 said:

The U of M would never allow Crookston to add hockey, ...

So no to UM-Crookston hockey. 

Please explain UM-Duluth hockey. 

Thank you. 

[The Sicatoka]

On 7/3/2019 at 4:09 PM, bale31 said:

The state government just isn't set up to allow for anyone else to jump up to D1.

Even under an "Omaha plan"? 

Yeah, I said it: Could a MnSCU school (or UMD for that matter) go DI if they dropped football. 

[ArchyAlum11]

20 hours ago, ubish said:

I can't speak for Miami, but there's no way WMU moves into the new CCHA (which is what I'm calling it) as long as our AD is still around.  She absolutely wants WMU hockey in the highest tier conference they can be in.  She want's WMU to be in a conference with schools that are all Div 1 or at the very least teams that have a huge commitment to hockey.  The only team in the new CCHA that fits that profile is BGSU.  We were fine playing the LSSUs and Northerns of the world when we also got to play Michigan, Michigan State, and Notre Dame all the time, but there's no way we'd voluntarily move our team down to play with a bunch of Gliac schools.  

The travel isn't really the huge issue that others make it out to be for WMU.  Kalamazoo has an international airport (with another a short drive away in Grand Rapids) and supplements athletic costs by playing money games against B1G teams in football and charging students an athletics fee.  

Also despite what others say, I would also expect there to be an attendance hit if WMU left the NCHC.  Sure, LSSU, and Northern are from the same state, but they traditionally haven't drawn well when playing in Kalamazoo.  We get much more excited to play Denver, SCSU or You guys than the teams from the UP (although we draw well for Ferris usually). 

I would agree with you, I don't think a switch would happen right away, at least not for WMU, given that Maimi has had a middling performance in the NCHC they might be more eager to switch to a conference with more local teams that are not quite as skilled, but then again even if they decided to change conferences we are still looking at least  4- 5 years down the road and whether or not the other Michigan schools can continue to grow. I'm pretty sure that there is going to be a huge focus on the remaining teams with regards to non-conference play. Either way even if MNSU and BSU don't get realignment they still drop the trip to Alaska, even if UAH  comes in as the eight school that far less of a travel and finical burden than the AK schools. 

[BarnWinterSportsEngelstad]

On 7/3/2019 at 2:53 PM, ArchyAlum11 said:

The U of M would never allow Crookston to add hockey

Crookston is presently in discussions/meetings in starting up hockey again.

[ArchyAlum11]

14 minutes ago, The Sicatoka said:

So no to UM-Crookston hockey. 

Please explain UM-Duluth hockey. 

Thank you. 

You really want to compare the the state of the U in 1966 - the Year that UMD joined the WCHA to Now, that 53 years of changes to the landscape of college sports! Not to mention 53 years of changes at the U of M. John Marrucci was probably a big reason, though there first year was the first year of the Sonmore era, the reality is when they were trying to get into the WCHA John Marrucci was still the head coach and had a lot pull at the school. He wanted to see an huge expansion of college hockey across state, as I have said before do not confuse the wishes of John Marrucci with the Wishes of the U of M in its current state. The More Pertinent Question is why did the U of M do nothing to save the UM-Crookstons D3 program when it suddenly folded in 1999, even after the City of Crookston renovated and enlarged the arena and UM- Crookston still payed the rental fees for the contract period.

[ArchyAlum11]

4 minutes ago, BarnWinterSportsEngelstad said:

Crookston is presently in discussions/meetings in starting up hockey again.

Best of luck to them, I hope they can pull it off, I'd love to see some more small schools add hockey, but keep in Mind Moorhead State tried that - all be it at a time when the economy wasn't in as good of shape, Moorhead has a larger student body, budget and metro area. They weren't able to get it done. But Again I really hope they do manage to beat the odds and add D1 hockey, I would also love it if Moorhead could get its act together and try again. I'sd be curious if they are talking about D1 or D-3 hockey though.

[Yote 53]

14 minutes ago, ArchyAlum11 said:

Best of luck to them, I hope they can pull it off, I'd love to see some more small schools add hockey, but keep in Mind Moorhead State tried that - all be it at a time when the economy wasn't in as good of shape, Moorhead has a larger student body, budget and metro area. They weren't able to get it done. But Again I really hope they do manage to beat the odds and add D1 hockey, I would also love it if Moorhead could get its act together and try again. I'sd be curious if they are talking about D1 or D-3 hockey though.

I could see the state of Minnesota adding one, two, or even more D1 hockey schools simply out of pure arrogance, and I mean that in a good way.  Think about it.  It used to be only UofM and UMD.  Now you have UMD winning natties, SCSU and MSU getting #1 rankings and NCAA tournament seeds, even BSU making it to the Frozen Four.  All of the MN hockey schools have had success and doing it with a lot of MN kids.  There is so freaking much hockey talent out there today, with so few NCAA spots, I can totally see a groundswell of support for Crookston, Moorhead, and almost certainly St. Thomas when they decide to move up, to sponsor D1 hockey programs.  They would probably be successful too, all with a majority of MN kids on their rosters.

[Goon]

11 minutes ago, Yote 53 said:

I could see the state of Minnesota adding one, two, or even more D1 hockey schools simply out of pure arrogance, and I mean that in a good way.  Think about it.  It used to be only UofM and UMD.  Now you have UMD winning natties, SCSU and MSU getting #1 rankings and NCAA tournament seeds, even BSU making it to the Frozen Four.  All of the MN hockey schools have had success and doing it with a lot of MN kids.  There is so freaking much hockey talent out there today, with so few NCAA spots, I can totally see a groundswell of support for Crookston, Moorhead, and almost certainly St. Thomas when they decide to move up, to sponsor D1 hockey programs.  They would probably be successful too, all with a majority of MN kids on their rosters.

I could see St Thomas adding DI hockey, but that's the only one. 

[ArchyAlum11]

7 minutes ago, Goon said:

I could see St Thomas adding DI hockey, but that's the only one. 

Saint Thomas is an academic focused school that is not going to move up to d2 - d1.

Moorhead State - Is the school that makes the most sense as it would be in partially untapped market, and could likely play its games at scheels arena until they could build there own facility in Moorhead. However I don't know how much will there is on campus to give it another shot... haven't seen that NHL feasibility study reach out to try and help them or any of the other smaller schools.

Crookston's  big issue is its small size and close proximity to UND, also the only arena in crookston is the one that the Eagles played in in there d-3 days even after renovation only seats 1200, the Current WCHA requires a Minimum of 2500 seats in an arena, and I'd imagine the New conference is going require at least the same amount and possibly others things.

[Rebel_Sioux]

Saw this today. Not sure who they would join if they could get it done. 

https://www.thedp.com/article/2019/07/penn-hockey-endowment-club-ice-varsity-bonachea-siegel-alumni-ivy-league-ncaa

[ArchyAlum11]

4 minutes ago, Rebel_Sioux said:

Saw this today. Not sure who they would join if they could get it done. 

https://www.thedp.com/article/2019/07/penn-hockey-endowment-club-ice-varsity-bonachea-siegel-alumni-ivy-league-ncaa

ECAC - Penn is  an Ivy League school so they would probably be able to get in despite making the league uneven.