Indian nicknames in the news

[runaroundsioux]

Try reading the entire conversation.  CM came up with a "positioning" statement to try and explain the use of North Dakota and not using a nickname. 

My point is and was that his "positioning" statement would be a waste of time because it is a completely transparent attempt to continue using the Fighting Sioux nickname.  A 6 year old could see through this "positioning".  No one is eliminating a nickname by UND using just North Dakota.  The nickname just isn't on the uniform.  Be honest about the intent, everyone can see it.

So what? UND has officially retired the Fighting Sioux nickname. They have met the legal requirements of the NCAA. If the fans continue to use the Fighting Sioux name, I believe this is still the United States of America and we still have something called the right of free speech. You seem to be so worried about appeasing the NCAA and the perpetually aggrieved. UND has. I sir, and I believe many other fans and alumni, are not, nor do we have to.

[82SiouxGuy]

So what? UND has officially retired the Fighting Sioux nickname. They have met the legal requirements of the NCAA. If the fans continue to use the Fighting Sioux name, I believe this is still the United States of America and we still have something called the right of free speech. You seem to be so worried about appeasing the NCAA and the perpetually aggrieved. UND has. I sir, and I believe many other fans and alumni, are not, nor do we have to.

You are missing a very large part of what I am saying.  I don't care if you wear Fighting Sioux clothes or yell Sioux at the end of the National Anthem.  I still wear a lot of Fighting Sioux stuff and probably will for several years, until they wear out.  Just don't tell me that you want to just use the name North Dakota because nicknames are antiquated or because they are a cause of insults and racial slurs while you wear that clothing.  You would sound like a fool, because it would be obvious that the real reason would be so that you can keep using the Fighting Sioux without a competing name getting in the way.  If you support using the name North Dakota, just be honest about the reason.  Don't try to come up with some bogus explanation that is completely transparent.  That is my point.

 

At some point UND will end up with a new nickname.  The school can choose it, or someone else will come up with something that catches on.  That is how the use of nicknames for sports teams really got started.  Many of them started with sportswriters coming up with some way to identify the team in a story.  Green and White is an example of something that could catch on because it is used in sports stories.  Some nicknames got started by fans yelling things at ballparks or stadiums.  Those type nicknames aren't always flattering.  Maybe the students will come up with something when they can't buy Fighting Sioux stuff any more and they want something they can call their own.  UND would be better off coming up with their own nickname rather than waiting to see what nonsense someone else hangs on them.

[darell1976]

You are missing a very large part of what I am saying. I don't care if you wear Fighting Sioux clothes or yell Sioux at the end of the National Anthem. I still wear a lot of Fighting Sioux stuff and probably will for several years, until they wear out. Just don't tell me that you want to just use the name North Dakota because nicknames are antiquated or because they are a cause of insults and racial slurs while you wear that clothing. You would sound like a fool, because it would be obvious that the real reason would be so that you can keep using the Fighting Sioux without a competing name getting in the way. If you support using the name North Dakota, just be honest about the reason. Don't try to come up with some bogus explanation that is completely transparent. That is my point.

At some point UND will end up with a new nickname. The school can choose it, or someone else will come up with something that catches on. That is how the use of nicknames for sports teams really got started. Many of them started with sportswriters coming up with some way to identify the team in a story. Green and White is an example of something that could catch on because it is used in sports stories. Some nicknames got started by fans yelling things at ballparks or stadiums. Those type nicknames aren't always flattering. Maybe the students will come up with something when they can't buy Fighting Sioux stuff any more and they want something they can call their own. UND would be better off coming up with their own nickname rather than waiting to see what nonsense someone else hangs on them.

Central used their colors for a year or two as a nickname before the spring of 1994 when Knights was voted in for that fall. I think sportswriters are using green and white as a filler until the new nickname takes place next year. I can't see UND using it as a permanent name. It would suck for merchandising as is the current "no nickname".

[Chewey]

Try reading the entire conversation.  CM came up with a "positioning" statement to try and explain the use of North Dakota and not using a nickname. 

My point is and was that his "positioning" statement would be a waste of time because it is a completely transparent attempt to continue using the Fighting Sioux nickname.  A 6 year old could see through this "positioning".  No one is eliminating a nickname by UND using just North Dakota.  The nickname just isn't on the uniform.  Be honest about the intent, everyone can see it.

You're missing the point, entire conversation or no.  The point is "positioning statement" or not, the informal use of the Fighting Sioux nickname by fans yelling this or that and the lack of a nickname is not offensive or hostile and abusive or otherwise.  The school is not using the nickname or imagery associated with it and that's what was "hostile and abusive" as per the NCAA and the professional pouters.  The nickname is "North Dakota".  If fans associate "Fighting Sioux" with it, how's that "hostile and abusive" on the part of the school or its teams?  It's not.  End of story.  

[Siouxphan27]

You're missing the point, entire conversation or no. The point is "positioning statement" or not, the informal use of the Fighting Sioux nickname by fans yelling this or that and the lack of a nickname is not offensive or hostile and abusive or otherwise. The school is not using the nickname or imagery associated with it and that's what was "hostile and abusive" as per the NCAA and the professional pouters. The nickname is "North Dakota". If fans associate "Fighting Sioux" with it, how's that "hostile and abusive" on the part of the school or its teams? It's not. End of story.

I agree. I would like to see what the nc$$ would do or try to do. I think the nc$$ wiuld eventually cave, as they woukd look ridiculous playing the role of Thought Police, and threatening sanctions for not having a nickname.

[82SiouxGuy]

You're missing the point, entire conversation or no.  The point is "positioning statement" or not, the informal use of the Fighting Sioux nickname by fans yelling this or that and the lack of a nickname is not offensive or hostile and abusive or otherwise.  The school is not using the nickname or imagery associated with it and that's what was "hostile and abusive" as per the NCAA and the professional pouters.  The nickname is "North Dakota".  If fans associate "Fighting Sioux" with it, how's that "hostile and abusive" on the part of the school or its teams?  It's not.  End of story.  

In this conversation, no one said anything about whether the nickname was offensive or hostile and abusive until you brought it up.  This conversation has nothing to do with the NCAA and what they think.  You are the one that brought those into this specific conversation.  As a matter of fact, you could substitute any nickname for Fighting Sioux for the purpose of this conversation.  This conversation was about the cover explanation that CM floated for continuing to just use North Dakota.  For his cover story to sound genuine, you would have to only wear clothing that says North Dakota, not wear anything that says Fighting Sioux.  For his cover story to be genuine, you could never yell Sioux during a game because you believe that using nicknames of any kind is wrong.  If you state that UND should keep North Dakota as the nickname because nicknames are antiquated and can be hostile or cause racial issues, while at the same time you are wearing a Fighting Sioux shirt (or any other sports nickname shirt) then you look like a hypocrite.  If you want UND to stay as just North Dakota, just say that instead of coming up with a cover story that makes you look like a hypocrite.

[82SiouxGuy]

Central used their colors for a year or two as a nickname before the spring of 1994 when Knights was voted in for that fall. I think sportswriters are using green and white as a filler until the new nickname takes place next year. I can't see UND using it as a permanent name. It would suck for merchandising as is the current "no nickname".

Sportswriters have used Green and White as a filler for years.  UND isn't going to use that as the name.  But if UND doesn't choose a new name, Green and White is the type of nickname that can become the unofficial name if it gets repeated enough.  That happened with a lot of sports teams over the years.  Eventually, the teams just went with the names.  And as an unofficial name, anyone could print up merchandise to sell.  That could cut into UND merchandise sales.

[Hayduke]

It's time.  Let's get a new nickname and be done with it.  This is getting old. 

[darell1976]

It's time. Let's get a new nickname and be done with it. This is getting old.

Totally agree!!!!

[yababy8]

I agree. I would like to see what the nc$$ would do or try to do. I think the nc$$ wiuld eventually cave, as they woukd look ridiculous playing the role of Thought Police, and threatening sanctions for not having a nickname.

Worring about what the NCAA will do is PTSD.

In much the same way as a victim of a violent crime will have fear about a return visit from their attacker we worry about the NCAA having 'some negative reaction' or 'an issue' with what we do. Like we need to concern ourselves with whether or not we are perceived as "fooling" the NCAA.

Beyond the paramaters of the settlement agreement the NCAA has no more plays left with this. They can do nothing. Hakstol can wear a fighting Sioux cap. The NCAA is powerless to effect that.

Everyone needs to understand that. The NCAA is not EVER going to decree a single thing policy wise unto us beyond what is EXPPRESSLY stated in the settlement agreement. (I doubt they would say much about it if we violated the agreement because it would open a can of worms they don't want open in that the very people they have proported to protect with their heavy handed, irrational and hypocritical policy have sued them in an effort to block their actions.(See Spirit Lake Sioux tribe vs NCAA))

Our nemesis is no longer the NCAA. It lies in our own bed. We need to look no further than the border of our own city to find the roots of the forces that mire us from becoming who we all want to be. If we declared our nickname was North Dakota and Hakstol joined 12,000 of us and put back on his his Fighting Sioux Hockey cap who do you think would try to threaten him for such actions? The NCAA?? Not only they wouldn't but they couldn't. How about his boss or his bosses boss?

Who are we dealing with here?

[CMSioux]

You are missing a very large part of what I am saying.  I don't care if you wear Fighting Sioux clothes or yell Sioux at the end of the National Anthem.  I still wear a lot of Fighting Sioux stuff and probably will for several years, until they wear out.  Just don't tell me that you want to just use the name North Dakota because nicknames are antiquated or because they are a cause of insults and racial slurs while you wear that clothing.  You would sound like a fool, because it would be obvious that the real reason would be so that you can keep using the Fighting Sioux without a competing name getting in the way.  If you support using the name North Dakota, just be honest about the reason.  Don't try to come up with some bogus explanation that is completely transparent.  That is my point.

 

At some point UND will end up with a new nickname.  The school can choose it, or someone else will come up with something that catches on.  That is how the use of nicknames for sports teams really got started.  Many of them started with sportswriters coming up with some way to identify the team in a story.  Green and White is an example of something that could catch on because it is used in sports stories.  Some nicknames got started by fans yelling things at ballparks or stadiums.  Those type nicknames aren't always flattering.  Maybe the students will come up with something when they can't buy Fighting Sioux stuff any more and they want something they can call their own.  UND would be better off coming up with their own nickname rather than waiting to see what nonsense someone else hangs on them.

I do agree that it is inevitable that there will be a new nickname chosen. Just for the sake of discussion however I have to say that based on your criteria even if UND was sincere in wanting to move on without a nickname there is no way they could because there will always be fans wearing Fighting Sioux clothing.  Uber politically correct Stanford chose a color as their mascot and there are still plenty of alumni that wear Stanford Indian clothing. Just because a school can't control what it's fans wear and cheer doesn't mean they aren't sincere.

[DamStrait]

You might have a better chance with that argument if large numbers of people weren't still  wearing Fighting Sioux clothing, weren't yelling Sioux at the end of the National Anthem, weren't yelling Sioux Yeah Yeah or other Sioux chants, etc.  The obvious reason that people don't want a new nickname chosen is so they can continue to use the old one.  No one is fooled by people wanting to just be North Dakota.

 

Unlike you, I won't try to speak for everyone that wants to stay just 'North Dakota' - speaking only for myself, far and away the biggest reason is that I won't have to live with the stupendously insipid name that Dr. Kelley inflicts upon us.  In my opinion, he is convinced of the complete infallibility of academia and absolute righteousness of the PC agenda - not a good combination for someone that will be choosing the new identity of athletics at UND - or anything else, for that matter.

[darell1976]

I can't wait until a name is chosen and this issue can be put to bed forever. Central is going on 10 years with a new name and it's grown on people, the same may happen at UND.

[Ray77]

I can't wait until a name is chosen and this issue can be put to bed forever. Central is going on 20 years with a new name and it's grown on people, the same may happen at UND.

FYP

[TBR]

 The obvious reason that people don't want a new nickname chosen is so they can continue to use the old one.  No one is fooled by people wanting to just be North Dakota.

Actually no, that reason is not obvious at all. I don't know of anyone who thinks that officially sanctioned, continued use of "Fighting Sioux" will ever be an option if a new name is not chosen. And fans will continue to wear their old Sioux jerseys long after a new name is chosen. Personally, I prefer not choosing a new name at all (or going with G and W) in the interest of not having to assume any more of a new identity than necessary, and I suspect many have that favor no name do so for the same reason.

[82SiouxGuy]

Actually no, that reason is not obvious at all. I don't know of anyone who thinks that officially sanctioned, continued use of "Fighting Sioux" will ever be an option if a new name is not chosen. And fans will continue to wear their old Sioux jerseys long after a new name is chosen. Personally, I prefer not choosing a new name at all (or going with G and W) in the interest of not having to assume any more of a new identity than necessary, and I suspect many have that favor no name do so for the same reason.

There are people that actually think the nickname will be an option again.  But that isn't what I was referring to.  I was referring to people that don't want a new name competing with the Fighting Sioux nickname.  They don't want a new nickname because people will yell that at games and more people will stop yelling Fighting Sioux.  They want to keep the old identity, the Fighting Sioux, on an unofficial basis rather than have anyone start using a new nickname.  So it sounds like you are part of the group I was talking about that doesn't want a new nickname because you want to keep using the old one, even though it would be as the unofficial nickname with North Dakota being the "official nickname".  That is why I said it is obvious why most people want to keep North Dakota, it is because they want to keep using Fighting Sioux on an unofficial basis not as an official name.

[Blackheart]

There are people that actually think the nickname will be an option again.

Maybe so, but that number would have to be pretty small after going through all this BS with the NC$$. Official or unofficial, there is a large group that doesn't care what happens in this process...UND will always be the Fighting Sioux to them.

[The Sicatoka]

I can't wait until a name is chosen and this issue can be put to bed forever. Central is going on 10 years with a new name and it's grown on people, the same may happen at UND.

 

OK ... it's trivia time:

 

1. Wahpeton HS's nickname before Huskies?

2. Devils Lake HS's nickname before Firebirds?

3. Grand Forks Central HS's nickname before Knights? 

 

Bonus: 

University of North Dakota's nickname before the one banned by the NCAA? 

 

If you are over 30 you probably went 3 for 3; if you're over 40 you probably got the bonus too. 

 

If you are under 30 you probably said, "Before Huskies, Firebirds, and Knights? What are you talking about?"

 

 

If we'd have dealt with this when it was clear the old nickname was no longer sustainable we'd be going on a decade of the new nickname. 

[jdub27]

Maybe so, but that number would have to be pretty small after going through all this BS with the NC$$.

Take a gander at the op-ed printed in the GF Herald today.  Or for that matter, any Facebook post UND has on the nickname process.  Hoping it's the definition of the vocal minority.

[The Sicatoka]

There are people that actually think the nickname will be an option again.  But that isn't what I was referring to.  I was referring to people that don't want a new name competing with the Fighting Sioux nickname.  They don't want a new nickname because people will yell that at games and more people will stop yelling Fighting Sioux.  They want to keep the old identity, the Fighting Sioux, on an unofficial basis rather than have anyone start using a new nickname.  So it sounds like you are part of the group I was talking about that doesn't want a new nickname because you want to keep using the old one, even though it would be as the unofficial nickname with North Dakota being the "official nickname".  That is why I said it is obvious why most people want to keep North Dakota, it is because they want to keep using Fighting Sioux on an unofficial basis not as an official name.

 

I'll say it again:

Sooner or later the NCAA will see through that thinly-veiled ruse and fire up their arbitrary and capricious rule making machine and deliver the next blow. 

[The Sicatoka]

Take a gander at the op-ed printed in the GF Herald today.  Or for that matter, any Facebook post UND has on the nickname process.  Hoping it's the definition of the vocal minority.

 

And there are folks who believe Stanford and Dartmouth will be restoring their "Indians" team names too. 

[siouxfanofcourse]

OK ... it's trivia time:

 

1. Wahpeton HS's nickname before Huskies?

2. Devils Lake HS's nickname before Firebirds?

3. Grand Forks Central HS's nickname before Knights? 

 

Bonus: 

University of North Dakota's nickname before the one banned by the NCAA? 

 

If you are over 30 you probably went 3 for 3; if you're over 40 you probably got the bonus too. 

 

If you are under 30 you probably said, "Before Huskies, Firebirds, and Knights? What are you talking about?"

 

 

If we'd have dealt with this when it was clear the old nickname was no longer sustainable we'd be going on a decade of the new nickname. 

1. Wops

2. Satans

3. Redskins

 

Bonus Flickertails?

[The Sicatoka]

1. Wops

2. Satans

3. Redskins

 

Bonus Flickertails?

 

The black balloons are on their way.  

[siouxfanofcourse]

The black balloons are on their way.

[yababy8]

I can't wait until a name is chosen and this issue can be put to bed forever. Central is going on 10 years with a new name and it's grown on people, the same may happen at UND.

Not apples to apples and I'm confident you know it..