How will you vote June 12th?

[UNDColorado]

Talk about Johnny Come Lately! You don't anything about me, but if it relieves your sexual tension if quess we have saved a sheep. You people are really envious of my Deck Chair, I am sure you can pick one up at Menards.

Yeah he doesn't know anything about you but he asked a question and you veered off into some rant that hardly even makes sense...Where was everyone 6 years ago when they were all asked to speak out in support of this?

NOWHERE is the answer that you are looking for. I for one am very mad at how things were handled because i love the logo and want it to stay but continuing this battle will only do harm to UND. Maybe someday it can come back, but today it is time to move on.

[ScottM]

When you copy from other people, that is plagiarism! You should have learn that UND, oh wait the communications department lost accredition, did the english department too?

Actually, you can copy, cite, etc., other sources of information provided you actually attribute the source. Most people do that pretty frequently here. But since you're a noob, I suppose it's too much for you go beyond rants so early in your tenure here. Your take on "plagiarism" is as ignorant as your views you've expressed the past few days. I can't decide if you're really Dave in drag or not. Perhaps one of his personalities has finally loosened from its moorings.

[TBR]

You should have learn that UND, oh wait the communications department lost accredition, did the english department too?

This sentence is a train wreck. What is accredition? Somehow I doubt your position on the name and logo is any better considered than is this post.

[UNDBIZ]

Don't feed the troll.

[FSSD]

UND claimed to have tribal approval. But they didn't have official tribal approval from any of the tribes during that period. 0 tribal approvals. A single tribal approval could have been used to out rank those opposed. No where in that document does it say that UND needed more than 1 approval, just that none of those tribes approved. Every school that had a successful appeal had a single official tribal approval. The NCAA would have had a very hard time turning down the UND appeal if UND had gotten that tribal approval. Denial of the appeal with an approval, when every other school with an approval having a successful appeal, would have been grounds for a lawsuit that had much greater chance of success than the lawsuit that UND ended up filing.

We will never know for sure whether UND needed more than 1 tribal approval. I believe the evidence suggests that was needed. But as I told Gothmog yesterday, it doesn't really matter any more. This is 6 years after the appeal deadline. UND couldn't get even 1 tribe to approve, so it doesn't matter how many were needed because the number was at least 1.

If Spirit Lake did not give permission to use the name why did the NCAA contact the tribe several times asking them to changes its position. I believe that this was reported in the GFH ealier this spring.

[watchmaker49]

When you copy from other people, that is plagiarism! You should have learn that UND, oh wait the communications department lost accredition, did the english department too?

You are wrong here. 82SiouxGuy has written like this for a very long time now. He always linked sources and by now these are his words and if someone else used them in the same manor, or word for word, they would have to cite 82SiouxMan. This inter-fan squabbles is a great reason to retire the logo. A house divided....

[82SiouxGuy]

If Spirit Lake did not give permission to use the name why did the NCAA contact the tribe several times asking them to changes its position. I believe that this was reported in the GFH ealier this spring.

Spirit Lake had given permission to UND to use the nickname in 2000 with a provision that "something good comes out of it" or something like that. I would have to look up the exact wording. When the NCAA passed their policy in 2005 they demanded that everyone get a current proof of approval from the name-sake tribe. The proof could be as simple as a letter from someone authorized by the tribes. The main component was that it had to be in writing. At approximately that time, as I linked earlier this weekend, there was actually a movement on Spirit Lake to remove that approval because they didn't think that UND was treating the name well. So approval from Spirit Lake was far from a sure thing.

The NCAA was not asking the tribe to change its position, the NCAA was asking the tribe to give its position. The Tribal Chair and the Tribal Council refused to address the issue with UND or with the NCAA. They wouldn't comment on the issue. As a few of us have said, if they had simply written a letter telling the NCAA that the 2000 decision was still in effect, much of this nonsense could have probably been eliminated. But the Tribal Chair and the Tribal Council refused to comment until after they were forced to allow an election, and even then they had to be pushed to issue a written letter of support.

I have never seen any proof that the NCAA was pushing the tribe to come out against UND. That would have been another potential lawsuit for UND. None of us like the NCAA, but I have heard no evidence that they interferred with tribal governments anywhere. The NCAA was not out to get UND specifically. UND was part of the group that the NCAA was trying to change. So it is really doubtful that the NCAA was actually asking Spirit Lake to change its position.

[The Sicatoka]

To 82 SiouxGuy, Sicatoka, and fightingsioux4life. Thank you for proving my point. 82 SiouxGuy adds his own spin to what others have said, and then comments on it. Sicatoka is a drama mama. Fightingsioux4life has nothing to offer but think he is talking big. You have proven that you are all minions who follow along and lack the ability to think freely. I have heard it all from UND how they have lost this and that and they will lose this and that, but when pressed for specifics they have nothing. The post season for UND athletics was not affected in any sport by the sanctions. It is scare tactics by the Three Amigos, Fiason, Kelley, and Okeefe. The moniker issue is a stand and fight situation and if you don't see that, well that is on you.

Dear poseur,

Where were you on August 5, 2005, shortly after the NCAA policy was announced?

Me? I was in communication with the folks in 300 Twamley (Kupchella and Harmeson) explaining, citing chapter and section of the Division I manual, how the NCAA had broken their own by-laws in creating this policy. (The NCAA has since changed the by-laws making this policy correct within the NCAA rules structure.)

So please, keep writing the humorous posts. I need the laughs.

[The Sicatoka]

UND's lawsuit against the NCAA spells out the specifics that some are questioning here:

On August 23, 2005, the Executive Committee applied a newly-created exception to exempt Florida State University (“FSU"), a large and influential Division I school, from the Policy. In support of this action, the NCAA issued a press release stating that “[t]he decision of a namesake sovereign tribe, regarding when and how its name and imagery can be used, must be respected even when others may not agree” all the while maintaining that it still considered FSU’s use of Native American imagery to be “hostile and abusive.”

Note the singular use "namesake sovereign tribe" quoted from the NCAA's own document. Every school granted the namesake exemption received it based on the approval of a single tribe. That was all UND needed, too, until after the settlement agreement. In fact, UND maintained that it already had the approval of a namesake tribe.

The closest federally recognized tribe, the Spirit Lake Nation, endorses UND’s use of the Fighting Sioux name and current logo. This endorsement from the Spirit Lake Tribal Council came in December 2000 in direct response to suggestions that UND change its name.

UND argued that the last official action of Spirit Lake's tribal government granted the university permission to use the nickname and logo.

(a) UND has received permission to use the “Fighting Sioux” name from the Sioux tribe geographically located closest to UND, the Spirit Lake Nation,

qualifying UND for the namesake tribe exemption;

The NCAA asked the tribe to reaffirm its support, and Spirit Lake never did. As Teeder notes, tribal chairman Myra Pearson voted in favor of resolutions calling for an end to the Fighting Sioux nickname during the time when the tribal council was ignoring the NCAA's request to reaffirm the 2000 resolution. That did nothing but create confusion about whether or not Spirit Lake supported UND's use of the nickname.

To satisfy the NCAA, all Spirit Lake's tribal council had to do was send a letter to the NCAA saying that the resolution it passed in 2000 still applied. It never happened. Thus, the NCAA ignored the tribe's last official action on the issue.

[82SiouxGuy]

UND's lawsuit against the NCAA spells out the specifics that some are questioning here:

Note the singular use "namesake sovereign tribe" quoted from the NCAA's own document. Every school granted the namesake exemption received it based on the approval of a single tribe. That was all UND needed, too, until after the settlement agreement. In fact, UND maintained that it already had the approval of a namesake tribe.

UND argued that the last official action of Spirit Lake's tribal government granted the university permission to use the nickname and logo.

The NCAA asked the tribe to reaffirm its support, and Spirit Lake never did. As Teeder notes, tribal chairman Myra Pearson voted in favor of resolutions calling for an end to the Fighting Sioux nickname during the time when the tribal council was ignoring the NCAA's request to reaffirm the 2000 resolution. That did nothing but create confusion about whether or not Spirit Lake supported UND's use of the nickname.

To satisfy the NCAA, all Spirit Lake's tribal council had to do was send a letter to the NCAA saying that the resolution it passed in 2000 still applied. It never happened. Thus, the NCAA ignored the tribe's last official action on the issue.

As a follow up, here is the link I posted this weekend that shows Spirit Lake was looking at rescinding the 2000 approval instead of giving UND another approval, http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/9145566/. The article is from September 1, 2005.

Opponents of the school’s nickname and Indian-head logo packed a tribal administrative building Tuesday night and presented a draft resolution calling for change.

“(The tribe) finds that the use of the Fighting Sioux and Sioux names by the University of North Dakota is both dishonorable and an affront to the dignity and well being of the members of Spirit Lake,” the resolution read.

The matter is expected to go next to the Spirit Lake’s tribal council for formal adoption.

[scpa0305]

This statement is as concise, to the point, and accurate as any comment I've seen regarding the consequences of a "no" vote. Not only will UND be playing the likes of Mayville State alot, but they will lose to these teams as often as not. Keeping the name/logo is not an option if you are a fan of UND teams.

I would vote "yes" if I could but I am out of state, but I ask ND residents to do what is right, especially you NDSU people. Let's get the old rivalry going and once going lets keep it vital.

Yeah, I guess. It's too bad though.

[luapsided]

This poll probably won't speak for the outcome, but it will be a close vote.

[scpa0305]

This poll probably won't speak for the outcome, but it will be a close vote.

Yes I know....I am afraid we're going to lose the name though.

[jdub27]

Yes I know....I am afraid we're going to lose the name though.

And the rest of us are afraid of what is going to happen if we don't. The facts have been laid out there, the sanction are real. Keeping the name and logo is and will continue to be harmful to the University of North Dakota.

[FSSD]

Spirit Lake had given permission to UND to use the nickname in 2000 with a provision that "something good comes out of it" or something like that. I would have to look up the exact wording. When the NCAA passed their policy in 2005 they demanded that everyone get a current proof of approval from the name-sake tribe. The proof could be as simple as a letter from someone authorized by the tribes. The main component was that it had to be in writing. At approximately that time, as I linked earlier this weekend, there was actually a movement on Spirit Lake to remove that approval because they didn't think that UND was treating the name well. So approval from Spirit Lake was far from a sure thing.

The NCAA was not asking the tribe to change its position, the NCAA was asking the tribe to give its position. The Tribal Chair and the Tribal Council refused to address the issue with UND or with the NCAA. They wouldn't comment on the issue. As a few of us have said, if they had simply written a letter telling the NCAA that the 2000 decision was still in effect, much of this nonsense could have probably been eliminated. But the Tribal Chair and the Tribal Council refused to comment until after they were forced to allow an election, and even then they had to be pushed to issue a written letter of support.

I have never seen any proof that the NCAA was pushing the tribe to come out against UND. That would have been another potential lawsuit for UND. None of us like the NCAA, but I have heard no evidence that they interferred with tribal governments anywhere. The NCAA was not out to get UND specifically. UND was part of the group that the NCAA was trying to change. So it is really doubtful that the NCAA was actually asking Spirit Lake to change its position.

Here is the information that was provided in the original lawsuit by UND..

In its January 18, 2006 response to UND, the NCAA Staff Committee did not even

mention, let alone address, these facts. The Staff Committee nonetheless described the

resolution of the Spirit Lake Tribal Council as one “of questionable continuing efficacy” and

admitted that “NCAA efforts to speak with representatives of the Spirit Lake Nation have been

unsuccessful.” Ex. T, Jan. 18, 2006 Staff Comm. Memo at 13. Apparently, the NCAA has tried,

but failed, to persuade the Spirit Lake Tribal Council to formally rescind its prior approval of

UND’s use of the “Fighting Sioux” nickname and logo. Unable to secure a formal withdrawal of

the Spirit Lake Tribal Council’s approval, the NCAA has instead attempted to cast doubt on the

viability of an unambiguous resolution of the legitimate governing body of the Spirit Lake

Nation. In the same breath, the NCAA insists that the essence of the Namesake Exception is a

respect for tribal sovereignty. Such duplicity is inherently arbitrary and indicative of bad faith.

http://www.ag.state....n-state-crt.pdf

[82SiouxGuy]

Here is the information that was provided in the original lawsuit by UND..

In its January 18, 2006 response to UND, the NCAA Staff Committee did not even

mention, let alone address, these facts. The Staff Committee nonetheless described the

resolution of the Spirit Lake Tribal Council as one “of questionable continuing efficacy” and

admitted that “NCAA efforts to speak with representatives of the Spirit Lake Nation have been

unsuccessful.” Ex. T, Jan. 18, 2006 Staff Comm. Memo at 13. Apparently, the NCAA has tried,

but failed, to persuade the Spirit Lake Tribal Council to formally rescind its prior approval of

UND’s use of the “Fighting Sioux” nickname and logo. Unable to secure a formal withdrawal of

the Spirit Lake Tribal Council’s approval, the NCAA has instead attempted to cast doubt on the

viability of an unambiguous resolution of the legitimate governing body of the Spirit Lake

Nation. In the same breath, the NCAA insists that the essence of the Namesake Exception is a

respect for tribal sovereignty. Such duplicity is inherently arbitrary and indicative of bad faith.

http://www.ag.state....n-state-crt.pdf

That was an accusation made during an adversarial process. It doesn't mean that it was 100% accurate. UND was trying to create doubt, as they should have been in such a process. But you have to provide proof before it can be accepted as fact. For example, look at the accusations that Soderstrom made in the lawsuit against the NCAA, he didn't have enough proof to make them valid. This accusation wasn't sighted as a factor by anyone during the settlement. You would think that it would have been a factor if the NCAA was trying to hold UND to a different standard than everyone else. Besides, it would have been easy for the NCAA to prove that the resolution was questionable at that point with the qualifying statement that was part of the 2000 resolution and the efforts to change the resolution.

Some facts have been shown. First, the group at Spirit Lake that doesn't like the nickname was trying to use the NCAA policy to turn back the 2000 resolution. The Tribal Council, in the end, didn't do anything either way and refused to even make an official statement either way until after being forced to hold an election more than 3 years later. No proof was ever presented that the NCAA was trying to get Spirit Lake to change the resolution, only an accusation. Every NCAA document states tribe, singular. Every successful appeal was the result of a single tribe approval. UND didn't get a single tribe approval until 3 years after the deadline, so we will never know absolutely if that was all they needed. But there is pretty solid evidence that it was. And as I said before, it is now 6 years after the deadline so I don't know what we are going to gain by arguing about it.

[bincitysioux]

The Standing Rock Ceremony did take place! The Elders did not oppose the moniker the last few tribal councils did. Huge difference! The pipe ceremony is similar to a constitutional amendment, you just can't change it or oppose it without the correct process. Something most moniker-change proponents do not understand because they don't listen and are always running their mouths, i.e. most of the posts on this page.

The problem with the pipe ceremony is that there is not clear proof that it was actually a religious pipe ceremony. There isn't a great deal of evidence that exists about the ceremony and it is contradictory. There are people that were at the ceremony that believe it was simply a ceremony to recognize that a group from Standing Rock was trying to develop a relationship with the University of North Dakota. They don't believe it was a religious ceremony.

I'd say that the fact that Standing Rock's own tribal council has been officially continually opposed to the nickname for 20 consecutive years now says alot about the validity of that particular "ceremony".

Of course, a bunch of white guys like myself and Reed Soderstrom would obviously have a better grasp of tribal traditions and policy than would the elected leaders of said tribe......................................

[bincitysioux]

Yes I know....I am afraid we're going to lose the name though.

As a small consolation prize though, we could keep hockey and the rest of the athletic department..............................................

[pivetz]

Dear poseur,

Where were you on August 5, 2005, shortly after the NCAA policy was announced?

Me? I was in communication with the folks in 300 Twamley (Kupchella and Harmeson) explaining, citing chapter and section of the Division I manual, how the NCAA had broken their own by-laws in creating this policy. (The NCAA has since changed the by-laws making this policy correct within the NCAA rules structure.)

So please, keep writing the humorous posts. I need the laughs.

Posuer? Is that all you got?

Anytime you need a laugh you give me a call!

Where was I?

2003-2004 Al Fallujah, Iraq

2005 Sharana, Afghanistan

2005-2006 Western Baghdad, Iraq

Thank You to all of you that sent me private emails. You are all class acts.

If you can't say it in public, Only a coward would say it all.

[82SiouxGuy]

Posuer? Is that all you got?

Anytime you need a laugh you give me a call!

Where was I?

2003-2004 Al Fallujah, Iraq

2005 Sharana, Afghanistan

2005-2006 Western Baghdad, Iraq

Thank You to all of you that sent me private emails. You are all class acts.

If you can't say it in public, Only a coward would say it all.

I'm not quite sure what this has to do with the conversation. If you are saying that you were serving in the military in those locations, then thank you for your service to our country. But it doesn't mean that you know anything about the situation between UND and the NCAA. In fact, it would mean that you were probably pretty busy with other issues so you may not have been following the nickname issue very closely. And I'm not sure what you are expecting for a reception on this board since you started with a bad attitude and you have insulted a lot of people with only a few posts. Is insulting people in public on the board really any better than something said in private emails?

[The Sicatoka]

Posuer? Is that all you got?

All I've got? No.

All I'll use here? Yes.

I try to stick to civil conversation. It's a new concept for too many.

As I explained before, your issue is with the NCAA, not with UND or UND supporters (who support the University first and a moniker second).

Please address your concerns, which even I agree are real and legitimate, and that I've taken to the NCAA already to no avail, to the only group that can address and resolve them to your satisfaction:

Dr. Mark Emmert

, President

Dr. Bernard Franklin

, Executive Vice President for Membership and Student-Athlete Affairs

The National Collegiate Athletics Association

700 W. Washington Street

P.O. Box 6222

Indianapolis, Indiana 46206-6222

Phone: 317/917-6222

Fax: 317/917-6888

In the mean time, please don't be surprised when (a) I state that I support UND first and a moniker second and (b) when I challenge people who believe an 80 year moniker is more valuable than a 129 year old university.

[darell1976]

One week from today!!!

[82SiouxGuy]

UND coaches will tour state to talk nickname

http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/238045/group/homepage/

Press conferences will be held in Fargo, Bismarck and Minot today and tomorrow. Tim O'Keefe and Deanna Carlson Zink from the Alumni Foundation will be with them.

“This is an opportunity for us to have our coaches available to answer questions about Measure 4 and how it affects their programs,” Faison said. “The most important thing is these individuals are the ones who have to deal with the consequences on a day-to-day basis. This is a good opportunity to communicate about the facts.”

Faison will be joined by men’s hockey coach Dave Hakstol, women’s hockey coach Brian Idalski, football coach Chris Mussman, women’s basketball coach Travis Brewster and track and field coach Kevin Gilbraith.

[scpa0305]

Posuer? Is that all you got?

Anytime you need a laugh you give me a call!

Where was I?

2003-2004 Al Fallujah, Iraq

2005 Sharana, Afghanistan

2005-2006 Western Baghdad, Iraq

Thank You to all of you that sent me private emails. You are all class acts.

If you can't say it in public, Only a coward would say it all.

Don't listen to any of these guys on this site....they are all trying to fill everyone's heads with garbage. They are simply pusing (to no end) to get rid of the nickname and are bashing everyone and their mothers for saying otherwise. They are scared because the would rather play Southeastern south dakota school of mines rather than jamestown even though that has not officially been proven yet. Whatever division the football team plays in will be just fine...either way it isn't D-I A football, everything below, well, is just below. You can still go out and hope your team wins. As for it affecting the hockey team...it won't...we simply will not be playing againt the Gophs or Badgers. They'll come calling when they need their stadiums filled.

[fightingsioux4life]

UND coaches will tour state to talk nickname

http://www.grandfork...group/homepage/

Press conferences will be held in Fargo, Bismarck and Minot today and tomorrow. Tim O'Keefe and Deanna Carlson Zink from the Alumni Foundation will be with them.

Maybe Fetch, DaveK, pivetz or Rob Port can provide us more "evidence" that these coaches were threatened and/or bribed into doing this.