Two Tier System for ND Hockey

[PuckLuck]

Share this all you want! Let's get the ball rolling!

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[Siouxperfan7]

15 minutes ago, PuckLuck said:

Share this all you want! Let's get the ball rolling!

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Just look at what the two tier system did to Minnesota.  Only good things can come from it.

[Yote 53]

3 minutes ago, Siouxperfan7 said:

Just look at what the two tier system did to Minnesota.  Only good things can come from it.

Is that sarcasm?  I can't tell because there actually has been some good things that have come out of it.  Class A hockey is getting better and better.  There has been great growth in interest and quality of play in the small school outstate areas because they actually have something they can compete for.  The Class A tournament the last few years has been very compelling.

I realize the nostalgia for the single class event, but I think it would be detrimental to small school hockey.  Yes, the feel good story of a Warroad or Greenway making a run and winning the entire thing sounds great, the reality is that would be the rarest of things in the current environment.  

[MafiaMan]

17 minutes ago, Siouxperfan7 said:

Just look at what the two tier system did to Minnesota.  Only good things can come from it.

"Good things."  Like Hermantown and St Thomas Academy spending years slumming it in Class A when they clearly could compete in Class AA.  

[Sioux>Bison]

3 hours ago, PuckLuck said:

Share this all you want! Let's get the ball rolling!

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Horrible idea. Not enough teams in the state for it to really make sense. Travel schedules would make it unaffordable for many schools.

[Shawn-O]

You'd need all the Junior Gold programs to field varsity teams for this to even make sense to consider, am I right?   

[iluvdebbies]

3 minutes ago, Shawn-O said:

You'd need all the Junior Gold programs to field varsity teams for this to even make sense to consider, am I right?   

Not in my opinion. 

[Wilbur]

Class AA:  RR, GFC, Devils Lake, North, South-Shanley, Davies, WF, Sheyenne, Jamestown, Century, Bismarck, Mandan, Minot, Dickinson, Williston.

Class A:  GPR(just put here because of population), Langdon, Mayport, Wahpeton/Breck, Hazen, Watford City, Crosby, Sidney, Bottineau.  

I know I probably missed some, and GPR likely plays up.  

Questions for those that know more than me:  Does Valley City have enough for a team at the single A level?  How soon will legacy have hockey?  How soon does WF get that next high school?  How many South kids vs. Shanley kids on that team right now?

I like the idea of two classes.  Whether it makes sense dollars and cents wise will of course be what makes or breaks it.  

[90siouxfan]

18 minutes ago, Wilbur said:

Class AA:  RR, GFC, Devils Lake, North, South-Shanley, Davies, WF, Sheyenne, Jamestown, Century, Bismarck, Mandan, Minot, Dickinson, Williston.

Class A:  GPR(just put here because of population), Langdon, Mayport, Wahpeton/Breck, Hazen, Watford City, Crosby, Sidney, Bottineau.  

I know I probably missed some, and GPR likely plays up.  

Questions for those that know more than me:  Does Valley City have enough for a team at the single A level?  How soon will legacy have hockey?  How soon does WF get that next high school?  How many South kids vs. Shanley kids on that team right now?

I like the idea of two classes.  Whether it makes sense dollars and cents wise will of course be what makes or breaks it.  

not an expert but you seem to just be kicking bottineau and hazen/beulah down to jr. gold.  Not sure that accomplishes the issue.  Maybe make grand forks split the kids better instead of the "super" team from central....   not that anyone is going to unseat either school very often.   i would think an actual super team from GF playing in MN would help parity a bunch, along with bismarck having 3 schools.

[Wilbur]

6 minutes ago, 90siouxfan said:

not an expert but you seem to just be kicking bottineau and hazen/beulah down to jr. gold.  Not sure that accomplishes the issue.  Maybe make grand forks split the kids better instead of the "super" team from central....   not that anyone is going to unseat either school very often.   i would think an actual super team from GF playing in MN would help parity a bunch, along with bismarck having 3 schools.

Did it based on population. 

[Frozen4sioux]

This split is the only way to save, let alone grow ND prep hockey.

The highest hope most  "A" programs have now is to be the first round slaughter lamb at state (Mandan this year)

The break cant be looked at just based on school enrollment like other sports.

The YOUTH CLUB enrollment numbers and retention, needs to be the FOREMOST factor.

One division not only is holding back AA size development but snuffing competative interests in the A level schools.

Time to bring ND HS hockey into an environment that promotes competitive growth. 

 

 

[gfhockey]

Grand Forks is in favor of this so we can play more Minnesota teams

[Wilbur]

6 hours ago, Frozen4sioux said:

This split is the only way to save, let alone grow ND prep hockey.

The highest hope most  "A" programs have now is to be the first round slaughter lamb at state (Mandan this year)

The break cant be looked at just based on school enrollment like other sports.

The YOUTH CLUB enrollment numbers and retention, needs to be the FOREMOST factor.

One division not only is holding back AA size development but snuffing competative interests in the A level schools.

Time to bring ND HS hockey into an environment that promotes competitive growth. 

 

 

I think saving prep hockey in ND is the most important issue to me.  Every year rumors fly in GF about AAA midget teams or now it's a possible MJHL team.  Heck, Minot lost younger kids this year to Canada and U16 teams in Colorado.

I don't think a solution is in the near future but at least it is being discussed. 

 

 

[sioux rube]

17 hours ago, Wilbur said:

Class AA:  RR, GFC, Devils Lake, North, South-Shanley, Davies, WF, Sheyenne, Jamestown, Century, Bismarck, Mandan, Minot, Dickinson, Williston.

Class A:  GPR(just put here because of population), Langdon, Mayport, Wahpeton/Breck, Hazen, Watford City, Crosby, Sidney, Bottineau.  

I know I probably missed some, and GPR likely plays up.  

Questions for those that know more than me:  Does Valley City have enough for a team at the single A level?  How soon will legacy have hockey?  How soon does WF get that next high school?  How many South kids vs. Shanley kids on that team right now?

I like the idea of two classes.  Whether it makes sense dollars and cents wise will of course be what makes or breaks it.  

 Valley City co-ops with Jamestown. No way they could go on their own. Plus their rink needs a ton of work done to it 

[Yote 53]

2 hours ago, Wilbur said:

I think saving prep hockey in ND is the most important issue to me.  Every year rumors fly in GF about AAA midget teams or now it's a possible MJHL team.  Heck, Minot lost younger kids this year to Canada and U16 teams in Colorado.

I don't think a solution is in the near future but at least it is being discussed. 

 

 

Are there any updates on that potential MJHL team in Grand Forks?  Interested to see if that develops.

[OgieOgilthorpe]

5 hours ago, gfhockey said:

Grand Forks is in favor of this so we can play more Minnesota teams

I bet everyone in Grand Forks is happy to hear you're representing them in this decision. 

[Walsh Hall]

There would presumably be 8 teams in the top division, so no regional tournament, and the regular season would just be for seeding for the state tournament.  It seems this would essentially revert to the Bantam system.  Just removing (2) teams from the top division would do nothing but potentially hurt those two programs.

I don't think the "lesser" teams have any anticipation of winning the state tournament, and I don't think not having a shot to win the state tournament hurts the youth numbers.  For those programs their goal is to get to state.  Sure an occasional higher end player will bail from a lesser program, but that's gonna happen no matter what.  It's no different than a kid going to the USHL for his senior year from a top program.

What's the specific issue that needs to be addressed?    I don't know if it's necessary to completely blow up a system because of one outlier that is dominant.

There just isn't the depth of talent in ND.    There aren't enough teams to have a legitimate 2 class systems.  We aren't MN.  The simple answer may be to just have a AAA  or junior team in GF to allow the top handful of kids to play a more competitive schedule.  The HS league will be more balanced.  Honestly, the top handful of kids in the state shouldn't be playing ND HS to develop into potential college athletes.

[90siouxfan]

my concern with a AAA team, junior team, etc in GF is the majority of the players would be non resident as that is the model of those teams.   Seems like if the top 20 GF players were on an elite team that played in MN, then ND parity would be better, split Bismarck into 3 teams (but not allow "super teaming") would also help,  same could kind of be said about Fargo...  the issue is hockey is a  sport for the "rich", meaning families that are willing to spend, not necessarily that they are loaded.  

[yzerman19]

59 minutes ago, 90siouxfan said:

my concern with a AAA team, junior team, etc in GF is the majority of the players would be non resident as that is the model of those teams.   Seems like if the top 20 GF players were on an elite team that played in MN, then ND parity would be better, split Bismarck into 3 teams (but not allow "super teaming") would also help,  same could kind of be said about Fargo...  the issue is hockey is a  sport for the "rich", meaning families that are willing to spend, not necessarily that they are loaded.  

In many states AAA is the norm, because there isn't much of a local system.  These teams are mostly made up of "local" kids.  I caveat local, because many are based in huge cities.  I haven't seen a ton of true import players from other parts of the country.  

AAA is expensive, mostly due to travel.

[Wilbur]

So if you did create an all star team of Grand Forks kids, lets call them the Knightriders (see what I did there...), would the MSHSL even allow them into their jurisdiction being the players would not be residents of Minnesota?  Let's say they are allowed to play Minnesota teams, but not qualify for the state tournament.  So they are just playing for pride then???

This is where I see the MJHL team idea making progress at some point.  

[Frozen4sioux]

9 hours ago, Wilbur said:

So if you did create an all star team of Grand Forks kids, lets call them the Knightriders (see what I did there...), would the MSHSL even allow them into their jurisdiction being the players would not be residents of Minnesota?  Let's say they are allowed to play Minnesota teams, but not qualify for the state tournament.  So they are just playing for pride then???

This is where I see the MJHL team idea making progress at some point.  

i see zero chance of minny letting them in... now ... established under a "private scool" in esst grand??

there ya go

[Bajadanny]

Two class system the only way to proceed

 

listen to the coaches, they know what’s best for the kids

[Walsh Hall]

2 hours ago, Bajadanny said:

Two class system the only way to proceed

 

How would this look for game scheduling?  If 8 teams in the top division (RR, Central, Davies, FS/Shanley, Bis, Century, Minot, and some other team) would they play each other twice?  That would be 14 games.  Scheduling other games, outside of games with the lower level teams, would be problematic for many of the teams. I doubt MN teams would burn their limited game allotment making a Western ND swing to play teams potentially well below their level.

The same would be true for the lower level teams.

I'd like to hear the specific problem that needs to be addressed, and an actual proposal to see how this would be set up.  I'm all for growing the game, but I don't see an actual proposal that would accomplish this goal.

 

[scpa0305]

13 hours ago, Wilbur said:

So if you did create an all star team of Grand Forks kids, lets call them the Knightriders (see what I did there...), would the MSHSL even allow them into their jurisdiction being the players would not be residents of Minnesota?  Let's say they are allowed to play Minnesota teams, but not qualify for the state tournament.  So they are just playing for pride then???

This is where I see the MJHL team idea making progress at some point.  

They could be Tier 1....and attempt to go to nationals.  They wouldn't and shouldn't be governed by the MSHSL.  I would actually keep the Riders and Knights (obviously) and let kids who don't make the Tier 1 team try out for the local HS teams.  Tier 1 is expensive though.

[Wilbur]

7 hours ago, scpa0305 said:

They could be Tier 1....and attempt to go to nationals.  They wouldn't and shouldn't be governed by the MSHSL.  I would actually keep the Riders and Knights (obviously) and let kids who don't make the Tier 1 team try out for the local HS teams.  Tier 1 is expensive though.

You perked my interest with the Tier 1 idea.  Obviously some flights involved and some hotel etc, but much as you have the Little Caesars, Victory Honda, Belle tire etc, I bet you could find a major sponsor to help with costs.

Rydell Chevrolet U18 Junior Siou....err...Hawks.