Indian nicknames in the news

[The Sicatoka]

This. The name isn't coming back so it is time to pick a new one.

 

Misters Gentry and Montgomery can explain the status of the old moniker:

 

Gone like a freight train, gone like yesterday

Gone like a soldier in the civil war, bang, bang

Gone like a '59 Cadillac

Like all the good things that ain't never coming back

She's gone, gone, gone, gone, she's gone

[yababy8]

Please do, with one caveat: If it's your intent to do so, please spare us the histrionics of "they took our name".

 

In the end, we chose to drop the name instead of suffering the consequences. (GFC, DL, and Wahpeton did the same: they dropped rather than suffer the continuing distraction.) 

 

 

We need to move on. 

I get that you think we should move on and you know I couldn't disagree more.  I agree with your request and never intended to obfuscate this debate(education) with such tangents as it would serve no benefit to me to do so.  However you need to do the same and I am inclined to point out that when you said, "we need to move on" you did exactly what you are asking me not to do as such a statement has nothing to do with the merits(or lack there of) of your comparison...

 

Now before I begin, one last chance for your to concede that your high school comparisons to the Sioux name are ridiculous?

[Hayduke]

Please do, with one caveat: If it's your intent to do so, please spare us the histrionics of "they took our name".

 

In the end, we chose to drop the name instead of suffering the consequences. (GFC, DL, and Wahpeton did the same: they dropped rather than suffer the continuing distraction.) 

 

 

We need to move on. 

 

Agree.

 

I'll hang onto my Sioux gear.  But, the current students need a nickname.  It's not fair to them.  Or the athletes.

 

It's over.  Choose a name.  Do it this spring semester.  Implement it by fall of 2015. 

[UNDBIZ]

I get that you think we should move on and you know I couldn't disagree more.  I agree with your request and never intended to obfuscate this debate(education) with such tangents as it would serve no benefit to me to do so.  However you need to do the same and I am inclined to point out that when you said, "we need to move on" you did exactly what you are asking me not to do as such a statement has nothing to do with the merits(or lack there of) of your comparison...

 

Now before I begin, one last chance for your to concede that your high school comparisons to the Sioux name are ridiculous?

I can't wait to read your explanation.

[The Sicatoka]

Now before I begin, one last chance for your to concede that your high school comparisons to the Sioux name are ridiculous?

 

Please, do tell. Also, do know that I'm ready with a simple retort of "Arkansas State". 

[darell1976]

Please, do tell. Also, do know that I'm ready with a simple retort of "Arkansas State".

Funny how every school on the list that had to change their name got a replacement except two..Alcorn State (still on the naughty list) and UND. It shouldn't take 2 years, 5 years or even a month to pick a name. Everyone knows it won't be as good as Fighting Sioux but in 20 years people can still remember it, wear it or yell it at games...like at GFC, Dartmouth, Marquette, etc.

[Teeder11]

Okay Corrie Wenzel of the Grand Forks Herald has fired the first shot across the bow when it comes to starting a campaign to remove Sioux clothing from UND hockey games. Here is his quote in an editorial in the Herald, "We wonder if the university is weary of Sioux-themed attire at hockey games, or the yelling of “Sioux” at the conclusion of the national anthem. If so, Mitchell would be wise to just say it." He is basically asking that Mitchell, the new VP of Diversity, make a statement asking fans to stop wearing Sioux clothing to hockey games. 

 

In the spirit of fairness, this line was in the same editorial but did not make your initial post. Emphasis mine.

 

As for us, we (The Herald editorial board) feel the university was bullied by the NCAA to retire the nickname. We (The Herald editorial board) still proudly wear Sioux gear to games and probably will for a while. There is a difference between racial insensitivity and supporting the university’s proud past.

[jdub27]

Glad to see Kelley speaking out against Louser's proposed bill.  GF Herald story

 

I see a Grand Forks legislator is co-sponsoring the bill.  Unfortunately I'm not in his district or I'd be sending an e-mail asking what in the world he is thinking.

[The Sicatoka]

As for us, we (The Herald editorial board) feel the university was bullied by the NCAA to retire the nickname. 

 

Yes, but at the time the Herald board sat idly by and watched the bully run roughshod over UND because it fit their (politically correct) paradigm. To me that makes them something between useful idiots and willing accomplices. Saying it less subtly, the Herald sat back and watched a potential First Amendment issue play out and didn't realize they exist only by the grace of the same First Amendment. 

[Old Time Hockey]

Glad to see Kelley speaking out against Louser's proposed bill.  GF Herald story

 

I see a Grand Forks legislator is co-sponsoring the bill.  Unfortunately I'm not in his district or I'd be sending an e-mail asking what in the world he is thinking.

I would say keep up the good work!

I have had enough of Kelley! I say no nickname works just fine. We all know our roots as do our student athletes past and present. Give licensing rights of the old logo to Spirit Lake and let them sell the merchandise.

The idea of UND Sundogs is laughable and the thought of a similar such name keeps me awake at night. For those that say we must move on....we have already, we officially dropped the name. That's enough!

[CMSioux]

In the spirit of fairness, this line was in the same editorial but did not make your initial post. Emphasis mine.

 

As for us, we (The Herald editorial board) feel the university was bullied by the NCAA to retire the nickname. We (The Herald editorial board) still proudly wear Sioux gear to games and probably will for a while. There is a difference between racial insensitivity and supporting the university’s proud past.

I wasn't meaning to selectively post, my point was simply that the editorial did suggest that UND make a statement about fans wearing Sioux gear to games. 

[Oxbow6]

Yes, but at the time the Herald board sat idly by and watched the bully run roughshod over UND because it fit their (politically correct) paradigm. To me that makes them something between useful idiots and willing accomplices. Saying it less subtly, the Herald sat back and watched a potential First Amendment issue play out and didn't realize they exist only by the grace of the same First Amendment.

Spot on. Very well said.

[MafiaMan]

Yes, but at the time the Herald board sat idly by and watched the bully run roughshod over UND because it fit their (politically correct) paradigm. To me that makes them something between useful idiots and willing accomplices. Saying it less subtly, the Herald sat back and watched a potential First Amendment issue play out and didn't realize they exist only by the grace of the same First Amendment.

Hear hear! It's a lot like the news media and politicians a few years ago who condemned Charlie Hebdo for printing certain cartoons...only to quickly wrap themselves in the "I am Charlie" blanket now covering France. Total hypocrites.

[jdub27]

I have had enough of Kelley! I say no nickname works just fine. We all know our roots as do our student athletes past and present. Give licensing rights of the old logo to Spirit Lake and let them sell the merchandise. 

 

Why in the world would UND give the rights of the old logo to Spirit Lake? 

 

 

The idea of UND Sundogs is laughable and the thought of a similar such name keeps me awake at night. For those that say we must move on....we have already, we officially dropped the name. That's enough!

I wouldn't consider pretending to have no nickname so that people will unofficially continue to use Fighting Sioux moving on.  Participate in the process instead of pretending it isn't going to happen and help come up with something that is at least somewhat acceptable.  Keep up the resistance against picking a new name and allow it to fall into the wrong hands and you might end up with something like Sundogs. 

[Old Time Hockey]

Why in the world would UND give the rights of the old logo to Spirit Lake? 

 

 

So we can continue to buy it! God knows that Kelley and co. won't let it be sold until they have to in order to retain the rights.

[Teeder11]

Yes, but at the time the Herald board sat idly by and watched the bully run roughshod over UND because it fit their (politically correct) paradigm. To me that makes them something between useful idiots and willing accomplices. Saying it less subtly, the Herald sat back and watched a potential First Amendment issue play out and didn't realize they exist only by the grace of the same First Amendment. 

 

No argument there from me. Although, Korrie Wenzel, the relatively new Herald publisher and the editorial writer in this case, represents new blood on the board compared to the old board that made those past decisions. Jacobs and Yellow Bird are gone from the Herald leadership now. Hopefully, this is a step in a different direction. 

[jdub27]

So we can continue to buy it! God knows that Kelley and co. won't let it be sold until they have to in order to retain the rights.

Quite certain they just had a limited release of the geometric logo shirts last year. It's what you will continue to see. I see no advantage of giving up the rights to someone else, especially a group with leadership who could have thrown UND a lifeline multiple times.

[Hayduke]

Quite certain they just had a limited release of the geometric logo shirts last year. It's what you will continue to see. I see no advantage of giving up the rights to someone else, especially a group with leadership who could have thrown UND a lifeline multiple times.

 

I believe some lawyer guys here pointed out that they have to do limited releases to keep the copyright, trademark, etc...  Lest if fall into the hands of evil doers!

 

I was checking out the three amigos that have co-sponsored the bill to extend the "no nickname can be chosen for awhile" legislation.  Or, as I like to call it, the "Let's screw over UND for no good reason" bill.  I wanted to see if they had a dog in this fight.

 

http://www.inforum.com/news/legislature/3653673-und-president-nickname-bill-not-helpful

 

"The bill is co-sponsored by Rep. Rich Becker, R-Grand Forks, Rep. Mike Schatz, R-New England, and Sen. Kelly Armstrong, R-Dickinson."

 

So, Schatz is a Minot State alum.  But, the other two, Becker (BS @ UND, MD @ UND) and Armstrong (BS @ UND, JD @ UND) at least have a direct connection. 

 

I was kind of hoping there wouldn't be UND people involved in the sponsoring of this bill.   I would have thought they would at least have a bit of knowledge of the negative repercussions for the school and athletic department. 

 

I was wrong...

[MafiaMan]

I believe some lawyer guys here pointed out that they have to do limited releases to keep the copyright, trademark, etc... Lest if fall into the hands of evil doers!

Limited releases indeed. Fire up the screen printing machine once every few years, put 50 over-priced t-shirts on the rack at the UND Bookstore or Scheels, BOOM! Trademark protected.

[Chewey]

Good for Louser, et al!  With the history behind the Sioux nickname and with the sheer majority of people still angry about how the school, state board, etc handled it and with that same majority still incredibly angry about the PC hacks on campus, in the media and the 3% of actual Sioux members who were behind it, more time than 3 years is necessary to transition into something else.  Kelley and his ilk don't give two cents about mending fences, respecting tradition, respecting the majority of Sioux who wanted to retain the name or respecting the vast majority of "stakeholders" who want to keep it North Dakota.  Kelley wants to use the "sales are down" meme as a justification for a quick transition to a new name.  So, sales of "UND", "North Dakota" merchandise are down?  To any reasonably educated person, that shouldn't be a shock when one juxtaposes that to how sales went when the "Fighting Sioux" nickname was employed.  That's an entirely fallacious argument.  So, changing the name to SUNDogs or Roughriders or whatever is going to appreciably increase merchandising sales even when compared to "North Dakota," "UND" items?  Baloney.  Being known as just "North Dakota" is entirely unique; UND is the only school doing that.  That uniqueness is marketable.  To be known as something else just so that people stop saying "Go Sioux" or stop wearing Fighting Sioux attire at games or at school, etc. is an entirely asinine premise that is expressed and rationalized through code words such as "healing", "moving on", "improved marketing", etc.  Yes, it really is THAT transparent.

[yababy8]

Please, do tell. Also, do know that I'm ready with a simple retort of "Arkansas State".

One illogical assertion at a time please.

Regarding your highschool comparison. There are many ways I could approach this one but the quickest way to make the point is to say that with respect to high school sports the only people that have passion, and yes it is passion that we are taking about here, are effectively the kids who are currently attending there and the parents and staff. Before you go off arguing how you know this guy that still cares about his high school team

admit to yourself how idiotic your comparison was as you think of the 50 people you know(just like the rest of us do) who are committed passionate fans of their college sports team. People take great pride in where they went to college. It often becomes a big part of their identity for the rest of their life. I lived in Kansas City for 5 years. There you are KU or MU. My father in law has a tiger tail on the back of his truck and a blow up tiger in his front yard for game day. I couldn't tell you what high school he went to to save my life.

In any big metro area you can't drive a mile without seeing a miriad of bumber stickers or license plates with alumni or pride or some other reference to universities.

I,as well as millions of others, fly once a year at least to go to my colleges hockey games. I have been to St. Loius, Minneapolis, Denver, Colorado Dprings, St Cloud and Philadelphia to cheer on my team and have been doing so for 25 years. Every time I do so I see thousands of others doing the same thing. I haven't been to one of my high schools games in 25 years. And BTW I was a huge supporter and fan of my high school teams when I was there and high school sports were big time at my high school, bigger than most. The basketball arena at my school was bigger than the old Ralph and I can remember it filling up an hour before game time back when we were top ranked in the state. People got into it but there is no lasting power in it. It's just to local and very little adult identity is deriven from it. It simply has no lasting power. It can be described as a phase or a stage. How often do you hear people talk about their highschool teams? I have lived in 5 big cities in the US in my life and I can say I pretty much never hear such.

Given the transient and fleeting nature of high school sports passion it is very understandable that people transitioned to a new name because you're looking at a significant (about 90%) turn over in your fan base every 4 or 5 years.

Therefore it is simply silly to compare how a collegiate fan base would adopt new changes compared to a highschool fan base.

[homer]

One illogical assertion at a time please.

Regarding your highschool comparison. There are many ways I could approach this one but the quickest way to make the point is to say that with respect to high school sports the only people that have passion, and yes it is passion that we are taking about here, are effectively the kids who are currently attending there and the parents and staff. Before you go off arguing how you know this guy that still cares about his high school team

admit to yourself how idiotic your comparison was as you think of the 50 people you know(just like the rest of us do) who are committed passionate fans of their college sports team. People take great pride in where they went to college. It often becomes a big part of their identity for the rest of their life. I lived in Kansas City for 5 years. There you are KU or MU. My father in law has a tiger tail on the back of his truck and a blow up tiger in his front yard for game day. I couldn't tell you what high school he went to to save my life.

In any big metro area you can't drive a mile without seeing a miriad of bumber stickers or license plates with alumni or pride or some other reference to universities.

I,as well as millions of others, fly once a year at least to go to my colleges hockey games. I have been to St. Loius, Minneapolis, Denver, Colorado Dprings, St Cloud and Philadelphia to cheer on my team and have been doing so for 25 years. Every time I do so I see thousands of others doing the same thing. I haven't been to one of my high schools games in 25 years. And BTW I was a huge supporter and fan of my high school teams when I was there and high school sports were big time at my high school, bigger than most. The basketball arena at my school was bigger than the old Ralph and I can remember it filling up an hour before game time back when we were top ranked in the state. People got into it but there is no lasting power in it. It's just to local and very little adult identity is deriven from it. It simply has no lasting power. It can be described as a phase or a stage. How often do you hear people talk about their highschool teams? I have lived in 5 big cities in the US in my life and I can say I pretty much never hear such.

Given the transient and fleeting nature of high school sports passion it is very understandable that people transitioned to a new name because you're looking at a significant (about 90%) turn over in your fan base every 4 or 5 years.

Therefore it is simply silly to compare how a collegiate fan base would adopt new changes compared to a highschool fan base.

So is a new nickname going to change your experience of flying all over the country to support your college? Is UND being known as something other than the Fighting Sioux going to change that quality of hockey?

[The Sicatoka]

Good for Louser, et al!  With the history behind the Sioux nickname and with the sheer majority of people still angry about how the school, state board, etc handled it and with that same majority still incredibly angry about the PC hacks on campus, in the media and the 3% of actual Sioux members who were behind it, more time than 3 years is necessary to transition into something else. ...

 

... in your opinion. And I'd say it's been more than three years. The handwriting was on the wall in August 2005 when this policy first saw light of day. 

 

 As far as the majority being angry, the only majority I can point to with empirical evidence is the majority of voters who voted to retire the name. 

 

To be known as something else just so that people stop saying "Go Sioux" or stop wearing Fighting Sioux attire at games or at school, etc. is an entirely asinine premise that is expressed and rationalized through code words such as "healing", "moving on", "improved marketing", etc.  Yes, it really is THAT transparent.

 

 

The main reason to choose a new nickname is to comply with the settlement agreement which states, "If UND does not adopt a new nickname and logo ... UND will be returned to the list of institutions subject to the Policy." Before you say it, "UND" is not a nickname it's an abbreviation of "the University of North Dakota" and it's not new (see the wording quoted from the Settlement Agreement); additionally, the lack of a nickname is not a nickname so the new criteria is not met there either. If I (a non-lawyer ) can realize that we're one peevish NCAA attorney away from being stuck in court ... again ... or worse.

 

Here's where I'm at: We lost. Yeah, the game was probably rigged against us, but we lost just the same. I refuse to continue to act as a petulant child for a decade, especially in light of other schools who lost the same game the same way who've already moved on and moved forward. 

[The Sicatoka]

One illogical assertion at a time please.

Regarding your highschool comparison. There are many ways I could approach this one but the quickest way to make the point is to say that with respect to high school sports the only people that have passion, and yes it is passion that we are taking about here, ...

 

Yes, it is about passion.

 

It's about passion for the University of North Dakota. The University of North Dakota always came, and will always come, before Fighting Sioux or any other nickname.

 

My passion is for first things first -- the University of North Dakota. 

 

 

My point that you completely missed, is that people will always have passion for the familiar and will resist change, especially so for North Dakotans, and especially change foisted upon them by outsiders (see: Devils Lake HS, Wahpeton HS, GF Central HS, UND, Arkansas State). I intentionally picked three ND HS to show this. But, more importantly, the unfamiliar becomes familiar and times change. But the passion, if truly in the right place, will not.  

 

 

Ask Luke Johnson and he's a Knight and a ... well, he's "to be determined"; ask his dad Steve Johnson and he's a Redskin and a Sioux. I guarantee you the passion is as strong in each ... for Grand Forks Central and the University of North Dakota. 

 

 

So, yababy, are you passionate for your University ... or for a word and a picture. 

[The Sicatoka]

One illogical assertion at a time please.

 

One last thing: If you don't believe Arkansas State fans were passionate for their Indians you don't believe what you typed above. 

 

But now the Arkansas State Red Wolves carry that same passion. 

 

Common factor? Arkansas State University.