bale31 Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 What about the Resch Center in Green Bay for a future WCHA Final? Probably the most central location for WCHA teams. Capacity is 8709 which is about the attendance they are going to get starting next year. I think that having it in the X maybe just once, Mcleod will see that they need to downsize. Grand Rapids is a good option, but Having it in Milwaukee will make it better for attendance for the Minnesota schools and the UP Michigan schools especially. I think you're kidding yourself if you think people are going to show up to Green Bay or Milwaukee. In my opinion it's the worst of both worlds. It's not near any of the schools and you're going into an area that isn't really known for college hockey. Again, what's the logic for downsizing? To prove fans of teams that don't have any bearing on the conference any longer were right? If you go to GB or Milwaukee attendance suffers and as a percentage of capacity it's just as empty. As an MSU fan, I probably wouldn't go to GB or Mil on a yearly basis. I would on the other hand go to St Paul every two years. If you have it in GB or Mil you're not doing anything for the fans of those teams that are in the conference and you're depending on fans of hockey in general to fill the arena. That's the worst disservice that you can do for those schools. This conference is already a tough sell for our schools. Taking the conference tournament 9-10 hours away from the schools isn't going to benefit us at all. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bale31 Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 The first WCHA tourney will probably be a measuring stick for where they end up down the road, nothing looks worse than a big venue with no fans, the X is going to look as bare as our games in Alaska. I think what you guys are missing is that you would alienate too many people by moving it to a "central" location that is a long drive for everyone. Look at it from the perspective of the fans of the schools and the administrators of the schools. You may think that having a half or 3/4 empty large arena looks bad, but frankly, I couldn't care less what you, as fans of UND (a non-WCHA member) thinks. Perception of other schools means nothing. It's all about the perception of our fans. If you alienate our own fans, you are much worse off than having people that aren't going to spend a cent on the conference tournament think you're doing the "right thing". Having the tournament in a city that is 2 hours away from any school, doesn't have an alumni base within the city, and doesn't even have a college hockey presence in is a great way to alienate your own fans. Add to that you're depending on casual hockey fans to drive the attendance is a disaster waiting to happen. The Green Bay Gamblers average attendance last year was just under 3700 fans and that's what you would be depending on to drive attendance for a tournament that doesn't really have a vested interest in the teams. I just think that people from outside the conference are making a whole lot of judgments based upon superficial observations rather than looking at it from the schools that are affected by it. We just don't have the luxury of worrying about perception. We have to fight to make sure our programs survive. I want the tournament to go wherever they can maximize revenue, perception be damned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watchmaker49 Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 I think what you guys are missing is that you would alienate too many people by moving it to a "central" location that is a long drive for everyone. Look at it from the perspective of the fans of the schools and the administrators of the schools. You may think that having a half or 3/4 empty large arena looks bad, but frankly, I couldn't care less what you, as fans of UND (a non-WCHA member) thinks. Perception of other schools means nothing. It's all about the perception of our fans. If you alienate our own fans, you are much worse off than having people that aren't going to spend a cent on the conference tournament think you're doing the "right thing". Having the tournament in a city that is 2 hours away from any school, doesn't have an alumni base within the city, and doesn't even have a college hockey presence in is a great way to alienate your own fans. Add to that you're depending on casual hockey fans to drive the attendance is a disaster waiting to happen. The Green Bay Gamblers average attendance last year was just under 3700 fans and that's what you would be depending on to drive attendance for a tournament that doesn't really have a vested interest in the teams. I just think that people from outside the conference are making a whole lot of judgments based upon superficial observations rather than looking at it from the schools that are affected by it. We just don't have the luxury of worrying about perception. We have to fight to make sure our programs survive. I want the tournament to go wherever they can maximize revenue, perception be damned. Somebody needs to google mapquest and check the milelage. Oh wait I did. LSU-GB 283 miles LSU-MSP 545 NMU-GB 178 miles NMU-MSP 397 Tech-GB 214 Tech-MSP 364 Ferris-GB 440 Ferris-MSP 632 Oops it seems that these schools are short drives from GB. More interesting though is that Tech and NMU are closer to GB than Bemidji is to St. Paul. Which by the way is 230 miles from St. Paul. Sounds like someone is mad that they are still stuck sitting at the kid's table on holidays. By the way, none of us are counting on the casual fan to show up. More like we are arguing that it needs to be in a site that is the MOST beneficial to the teams fans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siouxkid12 Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 I think what you guys are missing is that you would alienate too many people by moving it to a "central" location that is a long drive for everyone. Look at it from the perspective of the fans of the schools and the administrators of the schools. You may think that having a half or 3/4 empty large arena looks bad, but frankly, I couldn't care less what you, as fans of UND (a non-WCHA member) thinks. Perception of other schools means nothing. It's all about the perception of our fans. If you alienate our own fans, you are much worse off than having people that aren't going to spend a cent on the conference tournament think you're doing the "right thing". Having the tournament in a city that is 2 hours away from any school, doesn't have an alumni base within the city, and doesn't even have a college hockey presence in is a great way to alienate your own fans. Add to that you're depending on casual hockey fans to drive the attendance is a disaster waiting to happen. The Green Bay Gamblers average attendance last year was just under 3700 fans and that's what you would be depending on to drive attendance for a tournament that doesn't really have a vested interest in the teams. I just think that people from outside the conference are making a whole lot of judgments based upon superficial observations rather than looking at it from the schools that are affected by it. We just don't have the luxury of worrying about perception. We have to fight to make sure our programs survive. I want the tournament to go wherever they can maximize revenue, perception be damned. Having the WCHA tourny in St. Paul will not be an option after the bigger teams leave. It will be moved to a different site and I am pretty sure Grand Rapids, Milwaukee and Green Bay are all being looked at. My guess is Milwaukee will be the new host city, as the Admirals play there and they have hosted a successful Frozen Four in the past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big A HG Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Having the WCHA tourny in St. Paul will not be an option after the bigger teams leave. It will be moved to a different site and I am pretty sure Grand Rapids, Milwaukee and Green Bay are all being looked at. My guess is Milwaukee will be the new host city, as the Admirals play there and they have hosted a successful Frozen Four in the past. Multiple successful Frozen Fours...in particular, 1997. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackheart Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Somebody needs to google mapquest and check the milelage. Oh wait I did. LSU-GB 283 miles LSU-MSP 545 NMU-GB 178 miles NMU-MSP 397 Tech-GB 214 Tech-MSP 364 Ferris-GB 440 Ferris-MSP 632 Oops it seems that these schools are short drives from GB. More interesting though is that Tech and NMU are closer to GB than Bemidji is to St. Paul. Which by the way is 230 miles from St. Paul. Sounds like someone is mad that they are still stuck sitting at the kid's table on holidays. By the way, none of us are counting on the casual fan to show up. More like we are arguing that it needs to be in a site that is the MOST beneficial to the teams fans. I think you guys are all forgetting about all the Gofer fans that will show up at the WCHA playoffs next year not realizing their team plays in the Pig 10 Hockey Conference...it may take a while for them to get the update... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bale31 Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Somebody needs to google mapquest and check the milelage. Oh wait I did. LSU-GB 283 miles LSU-MSP 545 NMU-GB 178 miles NMU-MSP 397 Tech-GB 214 Tech-MSP 364 Ferris-GB 440 Ferris-MSP 632 Oops it seems that these schools are short drives from GB. More interesting though is that Tech and NMU are closer to GB than Bemidji is to St. Paul. Which by the way is 230 miles from St. Paul. Sounds like someone is mad that they are still stuck sitting at the kid's table on holidays. By the way, none of us are counting on the casual fan to show up. More like we are arguing that it needs to be in a site that is the MOST beneficial to the teams fans. That's one side of it, but you're not including the the fact that every other year it's going to be in Grand Rapids. I'm not just talking about MSP, I'm talking about the big picture. You fail to consider these stats: LSSU-GR: 277 miles (negligible) NMU-GR: 387 miles (Advantage GB) MTU-GR- 496 miles (Big advantage GB) FSU-GR: 57 miles (Big advantage GR) Oh yeah, then there is: BG-GR:221 miles (compared to 456 miles- Big advantage GR) Point being the travel between schools and locations are not that much different in the grand scheme of things. Considering that the WCHA is going to be spread out more than any other conference in the nation by a large margin, finding a "centrally" located arena isn't really that big of a deal. It's more important to look at where you are going to be able to draw the most fans on a yearly basis. There is going to be very little walkup traffic in Green Bay. Going on the off years of the Big Ten offers the potential for gaining some of those people that hard core fans of Big Ten teams. Having the ability to get in and out easily and cheaply is also a big deal for these schools. It's not cheap to fly into Green Bay. To fly into MSP is much less expensive. You can't cherry pick 4 schools and talk about how those 4 are the ones that you should look at....the conference is 10 teams (including a minimum of 3 that will be required to fly or bus for 20+ hours). If the tournament is held in Green Bay, you are most certainly counting on casual fans. If you have it in MSP you will have more of an alumni base to pull in as well as have easier access and Grand Rapids you will again have more of an alumni base in closer proximity to the location. You also have to look at the realistic situation that fans of these teams are both pessimistic and skeptical of the situation that we're left with. You have to try to make the fan bases of all of the teams as happy as possible. Having the tourney in a site that's the "least bad" isn't a good option at all. It's more likely to upset more people than it will do anything else.The perception of those people are what's important at this point. No one and nothing else. Nice little insult by the way. This has nothing to do with being upset with being left behind. Am I annoyed by it? Sure. Do I think it was short-sighted? Most certainly. Do I really think it's going to be for the better of everyone? Not a chance. That doesn't mean that I can't be objective about the situation. It may sound crass, but realistically, what a bunch of UND fans think is "better" for the WCHA is insignificant. UND fans or any NCHC or Big Ten schools have no bearing on any decision that the conference make from this point forward. The only schools and fans that matter are the ones that will be in the WCHA for the forseeable future. The perception of an empty arena doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is keeping our programs afloat.If acknowledging that fact is "being mad that they are still stuck sitting at the kid's table on holidays", so be it. That doesn't change that it is the reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bale31 Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Having the WCHA tourny in St. Paul will not be an option after the bigger teams leave. It will be moved to a different site and I am pretty sure Grand Rapids, Milwaukee and Green Bay are all being looked at. My guess is Milwaukee will be the new host city, as the Admirals play there and they have hosted a successful Frozen Four in the past. Again, though, who is going to show up to a WCHA tourney in Milwaukee? Badger fans? I get what you guys are saying about being "centrally located" (and I'm really not trying to be a dick), but from my perspective that's actually the worst thing that they could do. You're better off trying to find locations that are close to a couple of schools or alumni bases and taking advantage of them. None of these schools travel well.Having it 150+ miles away from any school is a recipe for disaster. I don't like it, but I know my fan base and those that are in the conference. It sucks, but that's not going to change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MafiaMan Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Having the WCHA tourney in St. Paul will not be an option after the bigger teams leave. It will be moved to a different site and I am pretty sure Grand Rapids, Milwaukee and Green Bay are all being looked at. My guess is Milwaukee will be the new host city, as the Admirals play there and they have hosted a successful Frozen Four in the past. St Paul NOT an option after this season? HUH? The Xcel Energy Center is hosting the 2015 and 2017 WCHA tournaments. Grand Rapids will host the 2014 and 2016 tournaments. EDIT: Official agreements have not been finalized yet between the two sites but a deal is close. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watchmaker49 Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Again, though, who is going to show up to a WCHA tourney in Milwaukee? Badger fans? I get what you guys are saying about being "centrally located" (and I'm really not trying to be a dick), but from my perspective that's actually the worst thing that they could do. You're better off trying to find locations that are close to a couple of schools or alumni bases and taking advantage of them. None of these schools travel well.Having it 150+ miles away from any school is a recipe for disaster. I don't like it, but I know my fan base and those that are in the conference. It sucks, but that's not going to change. Exactly what do you think we were trying to do? You can't get it within 150 miles. No matter what it is going to suck for the fans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InHeavenThereIsNoBeer Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 That's one side of it, but you're not including the the fact that every other year it's going to be in Grand Rapids. I'm not just talking about MSP, I'm talking about the big picture. You fail to consider these stats: LSSU-GR: 277 miles (negligible) NMU-GR: 387 miles (Advantage GB) MTU-GR- 496 miles (Big advantage GB) FSU-GR: 57 miles (Big advantage GR) Oh yeah, then there is: BG-GR:221 miles (compared to 456 miles- Big advantage GR) Point being the travel between schools and locations are not that much different in the grand scheme of things. Considering that the WCHA is going to be spread out more than any other conference in the nation by a large margin, finding a "centrally" located arena isn't really that big of a deal. It's more important to look at where you are going to be able to draw the most fans on a yearly basis. There is going to be very little walkup traffic in Green Bay. Going on the off years of the Big Ten offers the potential for gaining some of those people that hard core fans of Big Ten teams. Having the ability to get in and out easily and cheaply is also a big deal for these schools. It's not cheap to fly into Green Bay. To fly into MSP is much less expensive. You can't cherry pick 4 schools and talk about how those 4 are the ones that you should look at....the conference is 10 teams (including a minimum of 3 that will be required to fly or bus for 20+ hours). If the tournament is held in Green Bay, you are most certainly counting on casual fans. If you have it in MSP you will have more of an alumni base to pull in as well as have easier access and Grand Rapids you will again have more of an alumni base in closer proximity to the location. You also have to look at the realistic situation that fans of these teams are both pessimistic and skeptical of the situation that we're left with. You have to try to make the fan bases of all of the teams as happy as possible. Having the tourney in a site that's the "least bad" isn't a good option at all. It's more likely to upset more people than it will do anything else.The perception of those people are what's important at this point. No one and nothing else. Nice little insult by the way. This has nothing to do with being upset with being left behind. Am I annoyed by it? Sure. Do I think it was short-sighted? Most certainly. Do I really think it's going to be for the better of everyone? Not a chance. That doesn't mean that I can't be objective about the situation. It may sound crass, but realistically, what a bunch of UND fans think is "better" for the WCHA is insignificant. UND fans or any NCHC or Big Ten schools have no bearing on any decision that the conference make from this point forward. The only schools and fans that matter are the ones that will be in the WCHA for the forseeable future. The perception of an empty arena doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is keeping our programs afloat.If acknowledging that fact is "being mad that they are still stuck sitting at the kid's table on holidays", so be it. That doesn't change that it is the reality. You probably shouldn't be reading these message boads if you don't want to know what UND fans' opinion on the future of the WCHA tournament is. Obviously we don't have a dog in the fight, but that doesn't mean it can't be discussed/debated. "What a bunch of UND fans think" is going to be what you get here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MafiaMan Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Again, though, who is going to show up to a WCHA tourney in Milwaukee? Badger fans? I get what you guys are saying about being "centrally located" (and I'm really not trying to be a dick), but from my perspective that's actually the worst thing that they could do. You're better off trying to find locations that are close to a couple of schools or alumni bases and taking advantage of them. None of these schools travel well.Having it 150+ miles away from any school is a recipe for disaster. I don't like it, but I know my fan base and those that are in the conference. It sucks, but that's not going to change. I realize some Sioux fans may be snarky about the WCHA that North Dakota is leaving behind, but I'm not one of them. In fact, I want the WCHA to succeed. The question is, what is the best option for the conference tournament? I guess we'll find out soon enough what Grand Rapids holds in store...followed by the X in 2015. What school are you affiliated with? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siouxperfan7 Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 Bottm line is Bruce Mcleod is going to have to make a decision after the first Final 5 in Minneapolis draws an average of 2000 people a game. Renting the X is not cheap and he will find out very quickly that the X simply is too expensive and not the right venue for the Final 5. There are plenty of other venues in Wisconsin, like in Milwaukee and Green Bay that host hockey games on a regular basis that would be not only smaller venues to create a better atmosphere, but will be geographically better for the majority of WCHA schools. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 I know it's fun to speculate, but what's wrong with the WCHA rolling with things as they have them laid out and then adapting as they collect the data? To me it seems they at least have a reasonable plan to kick off the new era of the conference. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiouxScore Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 I think what could end up happening if there are a couple years of bad attendance is the WCHA deciding that the regular season champion will host their final five. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MafiaMan Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 I think what could end up happening if there are a couple years of bad attendance is the WCHA deciding that the regular season champion will host their final five. I had thought of that as well...you see it in college basketball all the time in the smaller conferences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tnt Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 I know it's fun to speculate, but what's wrong with the WCHA rolling with things as they have them laid out and then adapting as they collect the data? To me it seems they at least have a reasonable plan to kick off the new era of the conference. Agree, why sell yourself short. Remember when people told Ralph that we would probably not have enough fans to fill the Ralph so curtaining off the upper deck may need to be an option? Rather than getting a 15,000 seat arena, it went down to about 12,000 instead. Once they prove that the Xcel would be a disaster fanwise and financially, then make changes, but why take away a great experience from those players before anything is proven. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zonadub Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 I realize some Sioux fans may be snarky about the WCHA that North Dakota is leaving behind, but I'm not one of them. In fact, I want the WCHA to succeed. The question is, what is the best option for the conference tournament? I guess we'll find out soon enough what Grand Rapids holds in store...followed by the X in 2015. What school are you affiliated with? think bale31 is Minnesota State Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GFG Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 I'd be more excited to go to Grand Rapids than Detroit personally. Grand Rapids is one of the beer mecca's of the United States. There's something like 30 breweries there. Plus far less of a chance you'd get mugged and murdered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jodcon Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 I think what could end up happening if there are a couple years of bad attendance is the WCHA deciding that the regular season champion will host their final five. I thought about that too, and the attendance would probably be good, but you risk having it at one of the Alaska schools which would leave most fans at home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MafiaMan Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 I thought about that too, and the attendance would probably be good, but you risk having it at one of the Alaska schools which would leave most fans at home. That's the risk you take...I bet AA and Alaska might actually fill up their own barn, though. The question is, what happens when the home team is upset in the Thursday night game? I can recall the Subway 'Classic' in Grand Forks several years ago...I drove up for the Wayne State vs Findlay semi-final game figuring that since Sioux fans paid for those tickets as a package deal along with the Sioux game tickets, they would attend. Boy was I wrong. I would bet there were MAYBE 500 fans at REA for that game. An hour after that game ended, a crowd of 9,000-10,000 filed in for the Sioux game. Might be the same issue if a host school loses in the Thursday quarterfinals, but I guess you won't know unless you set it up that way, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MafiaMan Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 I'd be more excited to go to Grand Rapids than Detroit personally. Plus far less of a chance you'd get mugged and murdered. LOL! Detroit looks like Minnetonka compared to Chicago! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bale31 Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 You probably shouldn't be reading these message boads if you don't want to know what UND fans' opinion on the future of the WCHA tournament is. Obviously we don't have a dog in the fight, but that doesn't mean it can't be discussed/debated. "What a bunch of UND fans think" is going to be what you get here. I'm not saying that I don't want your opinions. That's not it at all. My point is that UND fans' opinions don't play into the decision making. The fact that you "don't have a dog in the fight" is exactly the point I was trying to make. The administrators need to worry about what is going to make our fans happy and what is going to make money, not what is going to be perceived as "better" with other fan bases. I know it sounds like I'm being a bit of a dick (and that's going to happen on a message board), but what I'm saying is just that we're going to be mocked and ridiculed no matter what our schools do. It could always be better and we won't have a ton of fans there, but that can't matter at this point. It's about maximizing revenue and nothing more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jodcon Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 I know it's fun to speculate, but what's wrong with the WCHA rolling with things as they have them laid out and then adapting as they collect the data? To me it seems they at least have a reasonable plan to kick off the new era of the conference. I agree, they have a plan and hopefully it works out for them, if not they can look at options. One thing that crossed my mind is if they could schedule their tourney (in St. Paul) in conjunction with the NCHC tourney it could be a plus for both tournaments, say have their semifinals earlier Saturday and play their Championship on Sunday, then the fanbases could bounce back and forth between the tournaments rather than playing at competing times, or playing their tournament a week earlier so the casual fan can take in some of both tournaments rather than having to choose certain games. Just a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jodcon Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 That's the risk you take...I bet AA and Alaska might actually fill up their own barn, though. The question is, what happens when the home team is upset in the Thursday night game? I can recall the Subway 'Classic' in Grand Forks several years ago...I drove up for the Wayne State vs Findlay semi-final game figuring that since Sioux fans paid for those tickets as a package deal along with the Sioux game tickets, they would attend. Boy was I wrong. I would bet there were MAYBE 500 fans at REA for that game. An hour after that game ended, a crowd of 9,000-10,000 filed in for the Sioux game. Might be the same issue if a host school loses in the Thursday quarterfinals, but I guess you won't know unless you set it up that way, right? Yeah if it was in Alaska and they lost early it would be a wreck, the thought of the crowd during our games in Anchorage keeps coming to mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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