How will you vote June 12th?

[The Sicatoka]

http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/237761/group/homepage/

The fallout of the limited NCAA sanctions is contagious as other universities such as Minnesota, Wisconsin and Iowa are boycotting UND athletic teams for athletic competition. A few weeks ago, the UND track team was disallowed from a prestigious track meet in Iowa. My low regard for this individual university action is irrelevant. We must deal with reality. ...

I know the leaders on this issue at Spirit Lake and Standing Rock. I proudly claim them as friends, and I am confident as they rightfully fight for recognition of their people that they do not want to cause harm to UND.

I am respectfully suggesting for our future a “yes” vote on Measure 4.

That letter was written by Earl Strinden, the former majority leader of the North Dakota House and retired CEO of the UND Alumni Association, and one of Ralph Engelstad's best friends.

[82SiouxGuy]

Tim O'Keefe also answers the critics charges and explains why the Alumni Association is working to help retire the nickname, http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/237760/group/Opinion/.

[scpa0305]

This just makes no sense to me at at all...

http://ndgoon.blogspot.com/2012/06/spirit-lake-nickname-supporters-to.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+blogspot%2FZTZqA+%28Goon%27s+World%29

[iramurphy]

I get it. Not enough to ever get me to change my mind on the nickname or logo...but enough for me to back out of the conversation. Someone obviosuly dropped the ball (more than one time). I guess I am speaking on the overall reasoning of taking the name away...nothing to do with sanctions or anything. Simply based on what is right and what is wrong and who will be offended, etc. If we missed a deadline (or two or three deadlines) so be it, we may have to get rid of the nickname.

Make sure you understand UND didn't drop the ball the tribal governments did. One of my old fraternity brothers thinks UND could have changed all of this if only.... When pressed as to what they should have done differently, he had no answers other than they should have done more. He blamed Kelly and could grasp the fact that this all took place before Kelly got here. We got the same requirements others did. Our tribes didn't comply when it would have taken only one and then later when it required two. Simple as that. The NCAA is not doing anything to UND. Over 95% of the NCAA members voted to abolish Native names and logos. UND and less than 10 other schools voted to keep them. Don't punish our UND athletes coaches and fans on the fields, the courts,and the ice.

[scpa0305]

Make sure you understand UND didn't drop the ball the tribal governments did. One of my old fraternity brothers thinks UND could have changed all of this if only.... When pressed as to what they should have done differently, he had no answers other than they should have done more. He blamed Kelly and could grasp the fact that this all took place before Kelly got here. We got the same requirements others did. Our tribes didn't comply when it would have taken only one and then later when it required two. Simple as that. The NCAA is not doing anything to UND. Over 95% of the NCAA members voted to abolish Native names and logos. UND and less than 10 other schools voted to keep them. Don't punish our UND athletes coaches and fans on the fields, the courts,and the ice.

Yeah I'm not blaming UND....I'm blaming the tribes. Again, on a right and wrong level...the natives now want to appeal the NCAA to keep the name....how can that be offensive? End of story....stamp the closed report. Let everything go on as it always has.

[Goon]

This just makes no sense to me at at all...

http://ndgoon.blogsp...on%27s+World%29

I don't know how they can win this case on appeal - I predict this appeal will be thrown out quickly - maybe our lawyer like ScottM can give us the analysis on the matter.

[fightingsioux4life]

Yeah I'm not blaming UND....I'm blaming the tribes. Again, on a right and wrong level...the natives now want to appeal the NCAA to keep the name....how can that be offensive? End of story....stamp the closed report. Let everything go on as it always has.

The thing is, everything won't "go on as it always has". You sound like one of those 65 year old grandpas living in Kief, ND who thinks everything should stay the same forever and ever. Well, our world just doesn't work like that. Our world has very real cause and effect consequences in it and they will not be kind to UND if the name and logo stay. Our Potato Bowls and Homecomings will feature the likes of Mayville State, Dickinson State and Sioux Falls College. How many people will care enough to buy tickets to those matchups?

Nothing less than the future of UND athletics is at stake on June 12th. Please, everyone, think long and hard about this before you vote.

[TBR]

Nothing less than the future of UND athletics is at stake on June 12th.

This statement is as concise, to the point, and accurate as any comment I've seen regarding the consequences of a "no" vote. Not only will UND be playing the likes of Mayville State alot, but they will lose to these teams as often as not. Keeping the name/logo is not an option if you are a fan of UND teams.

I would vote "yes" if I could but I am out of state, but I ask ND residents to do what is right, especially you NDSU people. Let's get the old rivalry going and once going lets keep it vital.

[82SiouxGuy]

Yeah I'm not blaming UND....I'm blaming the tribes. Again, on a right and wrong level...the natives now want to appeal the NCAA to keep the name....how can that be offensive? End of story....stamp the closed report. Let everything go on as it always has.

From the Alumni Review, http://www.undalumni.org/document.doc?id=2023.

“For me, it’s not a debate about the virtues over the use of the Fighting Sioux name and logo at this time,” Hakstol said. “It’s really gone to a different level of having to make a decision based on black and white facts. For a lot of reasons, I look at the situation and we have come to a point in which we don’t really have a choice in the matter. We really only have one decision that we can make. For me it’s a decision that’s based on facts.”

“People need to realize by choosing to mandate use of the name and logo — we may win that fight,” Men’s Hockey Coach Dave Hakstol said. “But in winning that one battle of control, I think we all have to realize that we give up control on many other issues and we put ourselves at the mercy of others. That’s where I’m at: I would rather make the choice to maintain control over our destiny, rather than put that control in somebody else’s hands.”

[luapsided]

NO

[82SiouxGuy]

NO

So, you don't think that Coach Hakstol knows what he's talking about?

Or Earl Strinden, former Speaker of the North Dakota House of Representatives, former head of the UND Alumni Foundation, a board member for Ralph Engelstad Arena, and a close friend of Ralph Engelstad?

The fallout of the limited NCAA sanctions is contagious as other universities such as Minnesota, Wisconsin and Iowa are boycotting UND athletic teams for athletic competition. A few weeks ago, the UND track team was disallowed from a prestigious track meet in Iowa. My low regard for this individual university action is irrelevant. We must deal with reality. ...

I know the leaders on this issue at Spirit Lake and Standing Rock. I proudly claim them as friends, and I am confident as they rightfully fight for recognition of their people that they do not want to cause harm to UND.

I am respectfully suggesting for our future a “yes” vote on Measure 4.

[FSSD]

That is basically what happened. UND had a period during 2005-2006 to get approval from 1 tribe.

Not sure that I agree with that statement..do you have a link?

[82SiouxGuy]

Not sure that I agree with that statement..do you have a link?

All schools on the Native American policy list had an appeal period during 2005-2006. They needed to get approval from a local tribe as a part of their appeal. They only needed approval from a single name-sake tribe. That was the same deal as Florida State, Utah, Central Michigan and the other schools that won their appeals. All schools that got approval from a name-sake tribe won their appeal. Not one school won an appeal without the tribe approval. UND couldn't get any of the tribes to provide the written approval that the NCAA wanted. http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2005-08-20/sports/0508200087_1_american-indian-mascots-arthur-kirk-tribal-support

The support of "namesake" tribes will be a significant element in weighing appeals by schools previously deemed to have hostile and abusive American Indian mascots and nicknames, the NCAA announced Friday, using language clipped straight from Florida State's own appeal.

"That's very, very important," NCAA executive committee member Arthur Kirk said, referring to FSU's blessing from the Seminole tribe of Florida. "A key criteria in the appeals process would be respect for the sovereignty and the wishes of the tribe in question."

The executive committee, which two weeks ago targeted Florida State, Illinois and 16 other schools under the new policy, met by teleconference Thursday night to hash out the appeals process. The group discussed multiple factors for an appeal, and tribal support was the only criteria it was able to agree upon, Kirk said.

The need for 2 tribes approval was the result of suing the NCAA and being forced to settle the lawsuit. UND got several extra years to get approval, every other school had to get their approval by the 2006 deadline while UND got until November 30, 2010.

[82SiouxGuy]

Not sure that I agree with that statement..do you have a link?

And some more, http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2005/09/06/mascot.

Like Florida State before it, the NCAA said, Central Michigan (whose teams are known as the Chippewas) and Utah (the Utes) were able to show on appeal that they have the support of the namesake tribes. "The NCAA staff review committee noted the relationship between the universities and the Saginaw Chippewa Indian Tribe of Michigan and the Northern Ute Indian Tribe, respectively, as a significant factor," said Bernard Franklin, the NCAA's vice president for governance and membership.

From the same article.

Only one other institution, the University of North Dakota, whose teams are known as the Fighting Sioux, has appealed the NCAA's decision so far. But while North Dakota has said it has support from at least some of the branches of the Sioux tribe, one of them, the Spirit Lake Sioux, reportedly voted last week to oppose the university's continued use of the name.

The linked story in the last paragraph is, http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/9145566/.

Members of the Spirit Lake Sioux tribe have voted to oppose the University of North Dakota’s Fighting Sioux nickname and logo.

Opponents of the school’s nickname and Indian-head logo packed a tribal administrative building Tuesday night and presented a draft resolution calling for change.

“(The tribe) finds that the use of the Fighting Sioux and Sioux names by the University of North Dakota is both dishonorable and an affront to the dignity and well being of the members of Spirit Lake,” the resolution read.

So, UND did not have support from any of the Sioux tribes during the appeal period in 2005-2006 and that is why the UND appeals failed.

[Gothmog]

All schools on the Native American policy list had an appeal period during 2005-2006. They needed to get approval from a local tribe as a part of their appeal. They only needed approval from a single name-sake tribe. That was the same deal as Florida State, Utah, Central Michigan and the other schools that won their appeals. All schools that got approval from a name-sake tribe won their appeal. Not one school won an appeal without the tribe approval. UND couldn't get any of the tribes to provide the written approval that the NCAA wanted. http://articles.chic...-tribal-support

The need for 2 tribes approval was the result of suing the NCAA and being forced to settle the lawsuit. UND got several extra years to get approval, every other school had to get their approval by the 2006 deadline while UND got until November 30, 2010.

82, I don't see that anything you have posted supports the idea that the approval of one tribal government was ever sufficient - in the case of there being more than tribal government in the state.

The link you posted refers to the support of "the tribe", but that seems to refer to the tribe as a whole, not individual tribal governments (i.e. the "Sioux" meaning all Sioux people in the state, not the Spirit Lake or Standing Rock Sioux). That is my understanding of how the policy developed. FSU was able to get approval of only one tribal government because there is only one Seminole tribal government in Florida (http://www.semtribe.com/government/) not because the NCAA policy was different at the time.

Of course, I could be wrong.

[82SiouxGuy]

82, I don't see that anything you have posted supports the idea that the approval of one tribal government was ever sufficient - in the case of there being more than tribal government in the state.

The link you posted refers to the support of "the tribe", but that seems to refer to the tribe as a whole, not individual tribal governments (i.e. the "Sioux" meaning all Sioux people in the state, not the Spirit Lake or Standing Rock Sioux). That is my understanding of how the policy developed. FSU was able to get approval of only one tribal government because there is only one Seminole tribal government in Florida (http://www.semtribe.com/government/) not because the NCAA policy was different at the time.

Of course, I could be wrong.

There are at least 4 Chippewa tribes in Michigan. Central Michigan got approval from the Saginaw Band, as it states in the article from insidehighered.com linked above. Not any of the other tribes. It only took the single tribe. Tribe refers to a band, not all Sioux or Chippewa.

Like Florida State before it, the NCAA said, Central Michigan (whose teams are known as the Chippewas) and Utah (the Utes) were able to show on appeal that they have the support of the namesake tribes. "The NCAA staff review committee noted the relationship between the universities and the Saginaw Chippewa Indian Tribe of Michigan and the Northern Ute Indian Tribe, respectively, as a significant factor," said Bernard Franklin, the NCAA's vice president for governance and membership.

Officials from the two institutions expressed their satisfaction at the NCAA's reversal. “The university is pleased by the NCAA’s decision to remove CMU from the list of universities deemed to be hostile and abusive in the use of the Chippewa nickname,” Central Michigan's president, Michael Rao, said in a news release. “CMU cherishes its ongoing relationship with the Saginaw Chippewa Indian Tribe. The university appreciates the NCAA’s timely response to its appeal and the university is pleased to put this chapter behind it."

There is another Ute tribe in Colorado, but only the Northern Ute tribe in Utah.

[Gothmog]

There are at least 4 Chippewa tribes in Michigan. Central Michigan got approval from the Saginaw Band, as it states in the article from insidehighered.com linked above. Not any of the other tribes. It only took the single tribe. Tribe refers to a band, not all Sioux or Chippewa.

There is another Ute tribe in Colorado, but only the Northern Ute tribe in Utah.

Ahh, but it is the University of Central Michigan (or is it CMU?). The scope of the university is different...therefore only the approval of the Chippewa of central Michigan is required. Also, the CMU campus is actually located on the reservation itself. Not the case for either FSU or UND (or Utah).

Again, I don't believe that it was ever the case that UND could simply have gotten the approval of SL or SR to satisfy the NCAA.

[82SiouxGuy]

Ahh, but it is the University of Central Michigan (or is it CMU?). The scope of the university is different...therefore only the approval of the Chippewa of central Michigan is required. Also, the CMU campus is actually located on the reservation itself. Not the case for either FSU or UND (or Utah).

Again, I don't believe that it was ever the case that UND could simply have gotten the approval of SL or SR to satisfy the NCAA.

How about Catawba College? It's located in North Carolina. There are no Catawba Indians left in North Carolina. According to your definition, Catawba wouldn't have gotten approval from the NCAA. The main band of Catawba is located in South Carolina. That tribe gave approval to Catawba and the NCAA gave them approval to use the name Catawba Indians. Again I will repeat, every school that got approval from a single tribe won their appeal. UND didn't get that approval. If the NCAA had used a different criteria for UND it would have been used in the lawsuit because UND would have been held to a different standard. It wasn't used.

[Teeder11]

Ahh, but it is the University of Central Michigan (or is it CMU?). The scope of the university is different...therefore only the approval of the Chippewa of central Michigan is required. Also, the CMU campus is actually located on the reservation itself. Not the case for either FSU or UND (or Utah).

Again, I don't believe that it was ever the case that UND could simply have gotten the approval of SL or SR to satisfy the NCAA.

I don't know. I think things could have been vastly different if SL would have made as much noise back then as the Committee from SL is making today. A lot of this could have been averted. Not that I solely blame SL for this. But they sure weren't helpful back in 2005 and 2006. The tribal chairwoman at the time, Pearson, couldn't find enough Northern Plains American Indian councils to sidle up next to and to vote in the affirmative with to rid the world of all American Indian nicknames, and then she would come back home to SL and hide from anyone seeking an official opinion on the matter, and if she was ever cornered, she resorted to the old apathetic line that the tribe had more important matters to worry about. Where was the Committee for Respect back then??!! -- when it mattered and would have made a difference.

[Gothmog]

How about Catawba College? It's located in North Carolina. There are no Catawba Indians left in North Carolina. According to your definition, Catawba wouldn't have gotten approval from the NCAA. The main band of Catawba is located in South Carolina. That tribe gave approval to Catawba and the NCAA gave them approval to use the name Catawba Indians. Again I will repeat, every school that got approval from a single tribe won their appeal. UND didn't get that approval. If the NCAA had used a different criteria for UND it would have been used in the lawsuit because UND would have been held to a different standard. It wasn't used.

The NCAA instituted the local approval requirement only to prevent petty rivalries from entering into the equation. The Seminoles of OK might, for instance, withhold support for FSU using the name simply out of spite against a competing school's sports program (same with the SD Sioux tribes). In the case of Catawba, there is no other tribal government to give approval so the NCAA allowed the SC tribe to give approval out of necessity.

As I said before - and I may have simply missed it - I have never seen any official NCAA document stating that one tribe approval was ever sufficient when more than one tribal government existed.

[82SiouxGuy]

The NCAA instituted the local approval requirement only to prevent petty rivalries from entering into the equation. The Seminoles of OK might, for instance, withhold support for FSU using the name simply out of spite against a competing school's sports program (same with the SD Sioux tribes). In the case of Catawba, there is no other tribal government to give approval so the NCAA allowed the SC tribe to give approval out of necessity.

As I said before - and I may have simply missed it - I have never seen any official NCAA document stating that one tribe approval was ever sufficient when more than one tribal government existed.

There never was an official document released to the public stating any of the criteria. I don't know what was sent to the schools. Each case was going to be decided on a case by case basis. In one of the articles I linked it said that name-sake tribe approval would be a significant element, and that this approval was the only criteria that the group could agree on. The NCAA used language straight from the Florida State appeal.

Please provide some evidence showing that UND needed more than 1 tribe during the original appeal process. I have provided evidence that every single successful appeal included approval from a single tribe, even if there were other tribes within the region.

[82SiouxGuy]

The NCAA instituted the local approval requirement only to prevent petty rivalries from entering into the equation. The Seminoles of OK might, for instance, withhold support for FSU using the name simply out of spite against a competing school's sports program (same with the SD Sioux tribes). In the case of Catawba, there is no other tribal government to give approval so the NCAA allowed the SC tribe to give approval out of necessity.

As I said before - and I may have simply missed it - I have never seen any official NCAA document stating that one tribe approval was ever sufficient when more than one tribal government existed.

One more thing on the subject. There was a deadline in 2006 for UND to appeal being on the sanctions list. That was 6 years ago. At the deadline UND had received 0 approvals from tribal governments. Tribal approval was said to be very significant in the appeal process. At this point, 6 years later, is it really important whether the number of approvals needed by UND was 1, 2 or 25? UND didn't receive a single tribal approval during the appeal process. They didn't meet the standard no matter what it was.

[sioux rube]

I went in early and voted yesterday at the Stutsman County courthouse. My vote? YES!!!!!!

[fightingsioux4life]

NO

We get it, you are a hockey-only, nickname-at-all-costs fan. Please go back to the Men's Hockey forum since that is all you care about.

[Gothmog]

One more thing on the subject. There was a deadline in 2006 for UND to appeal being on the sanctions list. That was 6 years ago. At the deadline UND had received 0 approvals from tribal governments. Tribal approval was said to be very significant in the appeal process. At this point, 6 years later, is it really important whether the number of approvals needed by UND was 1, 2 or 25? UND didn't receive a single tribal approval during the appeal process. They didn't meet the standard no matter what it was.

You're right. It's not important anymore.