ND Supreme Court Rules against the NDSBoHE

[JohnboyND7]

UND had the blessing in 2000 with the SL Sioux Nation. Why get rid of it then? There was no nickname policy until 2005 then the state (not UND) sued the NCAA (again the STATE NOT UND) thats when the settlement was made in 2007. Why blame UND?? There was no thought about leaving the NCC back then, no sanctions for the name, no scheduling problems. Ralph Engelstad died before the NCAA came out with that policy. Its sad you are too ignorant to see that its not Ralph's fault in this but the NCAA and its crooked policy. But whatelse would you expect from a Bison fan.

Is it not true Engelstad at very least made some threats to the administration regarding a future changing of the nickname? There is a webpage on UND's site that has a timeline of the nickname controversy. It has been quite some time that people have known the nickname would be an issue at some point. I put 95% of the blame of all of us on UND's fans, the school, and Mr. Engelstad. I put 5% on Carlson. Without Carlson, this little fight would probably still be going, probably just someone else leading the charge.

[82SiouxGuy]

Is it not true Engelstad at very least made some threats to the administration regarding a future changing of the nickname? There is a webpage on UND's site that has a timeline of the nickname controversy. It has been quite some time that people have known the nickname would be an issue at some point. I put 95% of the blame of all of us on UND's fans, the school, and Mr. Engelstad. I put 5% on Carlson. Without Carlson, this little fight would probably still be going, probably just someone else leading the charge.

Engelstad made threats at the time he was building the hockey arena and Kupchella was looking at the name issue. He did not make future threats. Engelstad also knew that the NCAA was looking at the issue (they started reviewing in 1998 or before). He understood that the NCAA would probably do something at some point, and spent some time trying to find options for UND. But he died before the NCAA did anything and no one knows for sure how he would have reacted to the current situation. But he did not put any threats in the building lease or the other donations he made to the University of North Dakota.

[The Sicatoka]

You have to give some blame to the NCAA for getting involved in internal matters of their members. (I thought they preached internal institutional control.)

Either way, I wonder what the NCAA would think about the concept of expanding sanctions to the whole of the state if the whole of the state voted for the moniker? I think I'll write the NCAA a letter asking them to expand the sanctions to the whole state if the whole state votes for the moniker ... oh, wait, ... here's the "fax sent and received" report already ...

[82SiouxGuy]

Point is why would the SBoHE take this mess on if not asked to by UND officials? You know damn well they were asked to off load the name change as to minimize any damage to the university. Once it was out of UND hands they lost control and now we're at the point we're at.

The SBoHE took on the issue because they wanted Engelstad to finish the hockey arena with the least amount of immediate problems. I highly doubt that UND administration asked the SBoHE to take on the issue.

[CMSioux]

I've read some stories where bison fans have said they will be voting yes purely to hurt UND. Any bison fan who votes yes simply because they think keeping the nickname will harm UND is admitting that their teams cannot complete with UND when the playing field is level and equal.

[WYOBISONMAN]

I've read some stories where bison fans have said they will be voting yes purely to hurt UND. Any bison fan who votes yes simply because they think keeping the nickname will harm UND is admitting that their teams cannot complete with UND when the playing field is level and equal.

Any Bison fan that would vote to keep the name is a fool. Actually, let me restate that......any North Dakotan that would vote to retain the nick name is a fool. The real nightmare for the entire system will come when the legislature meets and Al Carlson and his cronies start flexing their new found political power and hammer higher ed.

[The Sicatoka]

Actually, let me restate that......any North Dakotan that would vote to retain the nick name is a fool.

Yes, because of ...

The real nightmare for the entire system will come when the legislature meets and Al Carlson and his cronies start flexing their new found political power and hammer higher ed.

Look at all of the wonderful things they're doing for highways in western ND now.

They'll do all that and more (less?) for the schools in the NDUS, and they'll use NDSU's past financial issues and DSU's "degree factory" issues as justifications.

You (WYO) get that. And I get that. But some will be too blinded by a moniker to see what's really going on.

[homer]

Any Bison fan that would vote to keep the name is a fool. Actually, let me restate that......any North Dakotan that would vote to retain the nick name is a fool. The real nightmare for the entire system will come when the legislature meets and Al Carlson and his cronies start flexing their new found political power and hammer higher ed.

Wyo, you are correct on this and have been very consistent with this from the start. Carlson used this emotional issue as a cover for what he really wants and there are UND and NDSU fans alike that can't see through it. In my opinion the education in the next 3 months starts there, the conference affiliation and scheduling conflicts along with other sanctions are also very important.

Hopefully though when the Carlson's gang start flexing their muscle, guys like BisonDan and Johnson344 just "take it on the chin" like they recommend UND fans should have been willing to do when the retirement of the nickname began.

[Bison Dan]

Wyo, you are correct on this and have been very consistent with this from the start. Carlson used this emotional issue as a cover for what he really wants and there are UND and NDSU fans alike that can't see through it. In my opinion the education in the next 3 months starts there, the conference affiliation and scheduling conflicts along with other sanctions are also very important.

Hopefully though when the Carlson's gang start flexing their muscle, guys like BisonDan and Johnson344 just "take it on the chin" like they recommend UND fans should have been willing to do when the retirement of the nickname began.

You're not very smart are you homer? I have never argued for keeping the name and in fact have been against the NCAA from the start. But I'm also not ready to obsolve UND of all blame like some of you posters like to do. It never should have gotten to point were "Carlson" could interfere and it should have been handled years ago. Wonder who dragged this thing out? UND fans! This whole thing has nothing to do with NDSU. It's self-infected for the most part. That's been my whole point since day one.

[JohnboyND7]

I've read some stories where bison fans have said they will be voting yes purely to hurt UND. Any bison fan who votes yes simply because they think keeping the nickname will harm UND is admitting that their teams cannot complete with UND when the playing field is level and equal.

I don't think that would be admitting that our teams cannot compete with UND when the playing field is level and equal. I think it is admitting that we don't really care for UND and seeing UND's athletic programs fall down hard would be comical, wonderful, and benefit NDSU's all at the same time.

If you had an opportunity to vote on something that would hurt NDSU's athletic program in a variety of ways, you'd probably do it. And also take into consideration that NDSU fans are the reason that you have this opportunity to take them down hard, it'd make it even more funny and sweet for you.

Rather than being mad that some NDSU people are going to vote yes, and ride on them for doing so, you should be going after the "Sioux or Death" crowd who is the reason I, along with the rest of the state of North Dakota will have an opportunity to vote. It would be one thing if NDSU fans started the petition, or made a savethefightingsioux.com so we could stomp out a competitor in the region, but that is simply not the case. Look at the ridiculous fans you have who started the nonsense of fighting to get this on the ballet before you blame the people who get an opportunity to vote on it.

Wyo, you are correct on this and have been very consistent with this from the start. Carlson used this emotional issue as a cover for what he really wants and there are UND and NDSU fans alike that can't see through it. In my opinion the education in the next 3 months starts there, the conference affiliation and scheduling conflicts along with other sanctions are also very important.

Hopefully though when the Carlson's gang start flexing their muscle, guys like BisonDan and Johnson344 just "take it on the chin" like they recommend UND fans should have been willing to do when the retirement of the nickname began.

NDSU has been taking it on the chin with funding for some time. I think we'll survive...

[Fetch]

The blame game continues & real issues are ignored - these are the same kind of people we have been letting run things in this country for too long now

[FargoBison]

UND controlled the legislative processs? Are you stoned? UND, knowing the potential consequences, which we've just seen for the men's hockey team, actively fought against Fargo's rep, Al Carlson's idiotic attempts to gain power for himself. Since the state, vis a vis its legislature and referral process, wants to hang UND with the Sioux moniker, it should suffer the effects as well as the school.

UND coaches who've supported use of the Fighting Sioux nickname say they also support new efforts in the state legislature to keep the nickname alive.

Womens basketball coach Gene Roebuck and head mens hockey coach Dave Hakstol say they're in favor of a pro-nickname bill introduced by Fargo Representative Al Carlson.

Gene Roebuck/UND Womens Basketball Coach: "I'm very proud to know people from the Sioux nations through my years in Devils Lake and if we can do anything to continue the traditions and keep the honor going, I'm all for it." Dave Hakstol/UND Mens Hockey Coach: "I support what Representative Carlson has submitted. I don't claim to know anymore about it than any average man but as a North Dakota citizen to reflect my opinions. Those are my opinions also and they haven't changed in forever."

UND President Robert Kelley says the process of dropping the logo and nickname is continuing.

http://www.valleynew...redirected=true

Lack of control, I don't want to listen about the flip-flopping UND coaches and suppporters that started this mess and gave Carlson and the legislature the political motivation to do this and get away with it.

[homer]

You're not very smart are you homer? I have never argued for keeping the name and in fact have been against the NCAA from the start. But I'm also not ready to obsolve UND of all blame like some of you posters like to do. It never should have gotten to point were "Carlson" could interfere and it should have been handled years ago. Wonder who dragged this thing out? UND fans! This whole thing has nothing to do with NDSU. It's self-infected for the most part. That's been my whole point since day one.

I've said UND has had opportunities to get rid of the name in the past and missed taking advantage of those. When Carlson introduced his law however UND was retiring the name. They were doing their part of the agreement with the NCAA, what more do you want. Are you saying everyone who voted for the state law in the legislature was a UND fan? Also, everyone who signed the petition to repeal the repeal was a UND fan? So not everyone who drug this out was a UND fan. I've stated many times that UND deserves their fare share of the blame but there is also plenty more to go around to some people who are none UND fans.

[homer]

NDSU has been taking it on the chin with funding for some time. I think we'll survive...

And you think that the legislature gaining control of the University system will make this any better? Remember, your words, not mine....no whining.

[fightingsioux4life]

http://www.valleynew...redirected=true

Lack of control, I don't want to listen about the flip-flopping UND coaches and suppporters that started this mess and gave Carlson the legislature the political motivation to do this.

If "Prime Minister" Al Carlson hadn't introduced this in the Legislature in the first place, the name would have been retired by now. That is a fact you cannot spin your way out of because of what some UND coaches and supporters did or did not do. I do think it was a mistake for Hakstol and Roebuck to come out and push this law, but the Legislature could have done the intelligent thing and voted it down. They did not. They demonstrated a total lack of leadership and responsibility to the State and the institutions that we all support thru our tax dollars. I think it's time that we make it clear to current Legislators that they run the risk of becoming FORMER Legislators if they don't do what it takes to save UND from this black hole.

[UNDColorado]

I don't think that would be admitting that our teams cannot compete with UND when the playing field is level and equal. I think it is admitting that we don't really care for UND and seeing UND's athletic programs fall down hard would be comical, wonderful, and benefit NDSU's all at the same time.

If you had an opportunity to vote on something that would hurt NDSU's athletic program in a variety of ways, you'd probably do it. And also take into consideration that NDSU fans are the reason that you have this opportunity to take them down hard, it'd make it even more funny and sweet for you.

Rather than being mad that some NDSU people are going to vote yes, and ride on them for doing so, you should be going after the "Sioux or Death" crowd who is the reason I, along with the rest of the state of North Dakota will have an opportunity to vote. It would be one thing if NDSU fans started the petition, or made a savethefightingsioux.com so we could stomp out a competitor in the region, but that is simply not the case. Look at the ridiculous fans you have who started the nonsense of fighting to get this on the ballet before you blame the people who get an opportunity to vote on it.

NDSU has been taking it on the chin with funding for some time. I think we'll survive...

You are conveniently forgetting to add that the majority of the petition mongers HAVE NEVER ATTENDED UND, and have no stake whatsoever in UND's success as an institution.

[ScottM]

http://www.valleynew...redirected=true

Lack of control, I don't want to listen about the flip-flopping UND coaches and suppporters that started this mess and gave Carlson and the legislature the political motivation to do this and get away with it.

Complicity for maintaining UND's current moniker lays with the people of North Dakota who perpetuate its use through the legislative and initiative processes, so they should be put under the same sanctions imposed on the school. This has nothing to do with opinions, political manuvering, etc. Let the state reap what it sows.

[MplsBison]

I can't help but think that there will be people voting on this issue who will use the following ideas to guide their votes.

- the NCAA is a part of the federal government and should therefore have no say in what a state institution does

- the Standing Rock tribe voted against letting UND use the Sioux nickname, so they shouldn't get to use it

- UND will be kicked out of the Big Sky if the vote passes, which can only be good for NDSU

- UND won't be able to play in the Ralph Englestad Arena because it has Sioux logos

- hasn't the University of North Dakota always been the Fighting Sioux? Why do they want to change it?

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for democracy and the idea of one man, one vote. But on the other hand, like all popular votes these days -- I just wonder how much better a free-for-all of the uneducated and misguided is than a dictatorship.

[FargoBison]

Complicity for maintaining UND's current moniker lays with the people of North Dakota who perpetuate its use through the legislative and initiative processes, so they should be put under the same sanctions imposed on the school. This has nothing to do with opinions, political manuvering, etc. Let the state reap what it sows.

The state of ND and the NCAA have a settlement, nowhere in that settlement is there anything about other ND schools being punished because UND isn't in compliance. The only way the NCAA could punish other ND schools if if they are violating their Native American nickname policies.

[MplsBison]

You have to give some blame to the NCAA for getting involved in internal matters of their members. (I thought they preached internal institutional control.)

Either way, I wonder what the NCAA would think about the concept of expanding sanctions to the whole of the state if the whole of the state voted for the moniker? I think I'll write the NCAA a letter asking them to expand the sanctions to the whole state if the whole state votes for the moniker ... oh, wait, ... here's the "fax sent and received" report already ...

I know you're just trying to stir things up and perhaps invoke some conversation.

But all I can say is - wow. I don't think you can comprehend the fury (or as Sam would say, "wrath") of NDSU alumni if they found out that the NCAA was barring any school in ND from hosting a NCAA playoff event as a result of a state-wide vote. There would be countless people litereally screaming with spit flying out of their mouths. It would be epic.

[ScottM]

The state of ND and the NCAA have a settlement, nowhere in that settlement is there anything about other ND schools being punished because UND isn't in compliance. The only way the NCAA could punish other ND schools if if they are violating their Native American nickname policies.

Really? Ask South Carolina and Mississippi about their states' use of the Confederate flag on state office buildings and their inability to host NC$$ tournaments. The NC$$ can basically do whatever it wants to member schools and their home states. And North Dakota's failure to either stand up to the NC$$ in a meaningful fashion, such as getting its lazy-ass congressional delegation to move in 2005 like Florida and Utah, and now its continued imposition of the Sioux moniker on UND would be a perfect marker for the NC$$ to show it's "serious" about removing NA imagery from member schools by any means necesary.

[FargoBison]

Really? Ask South Carolina and Mississippi about their states' use of the Confederate flag on state office buildings and their inability to host NC$$ tournaments. The NC$$ can basically do whatever it wants to member schools and their home states. And North Dakota's failure to either stand up to the NC$$ in a meaningful fashion, such as getting its lazy-ass congressional delegation to move in 2005 like Florida and Utah, and now its continued imposition of the Sioux moniker on UND would be a perfect marker for the NC$$ to show it's "serious" about removing NA imagery from member schools by any means necesary.

Just stop with this nonsense about MS and SC, you are just making a fool out of yourself. The State of ND and the NCAA have a settlement and nowhere in that settlement is the NCAA given the authority to punish other ND schools if UND is not compliance with it. You are comparing apples to oranges.

If they punished other ND schools because UND is not in compliance with their policies and the settlement, the NCAA would be sued and the NCAA would lose.

But if the state of ND passes a law adopting UND's logo as the state flag you might have a point.

[82SiouxGuy]

The state of ND and the NCAA have a settlement, nowhere in that settlement is there anything about other ND schools being punished because UND isn't in compliance. The only way the NCAA could punish other ND schools if if they are violating their Native American nickname policies.

The settlement doesn't spell out the sanctions. It says that UND will be put on the sanctions list if it continues to use the nickname and logo. They can change the sanctions at any time. And the settlement doesn't say that they can't expand the scope. North Dakota gave up the right to sue on the issue as long as the NCAA doesn't break the settlement terms. Changing the sanctions does not break the settlement terms. Try reading the settlement.

[UNDBIZ]

I don't think you can comprehend the fury (or as Sam would say, "wrath") of NDSU alumni if they found out that the NCAA was barring any school in ND from hosting a NCAA playoff event as a result of a state-wide vote. There would be countless people litereally screaming with spit flying out of their mouths. It would be epic.

Exactly, then we wouldn't have to worry about the nickname at all costs crowd winning the vote.

Note: I don't believe there is even a remote possibility of the NC$$ punishing Moo U in this situation

[darell1976]

The state of ND and the NCAA have a settlement, nowhere in that settlement is there anything about other ND schools being punished because UND isn't in compliance. The only way the NCAA could punish other ND schools if if they are violating their Native American nickname policies.

Isn't a Buffalo a sacred Indian animal . Someone alert the NCAA!!