The Sanctions and Punishments Have Arrived

[Bison Dan]

If you think the average person knows better than UND, the SBHE, and the legislature..... I ask you to take one look at DaveK, luapsided, 10898 (or whatever it is), yababy, and Fetch's posts on this board. Although they are the vocal minority on this site, they are not the minority in the state. They spew lies (which they completely believe) at every turn. Also, since you missed it last time:

"So based on your post about the SL lawsuit, it would appear you don't think the NC$$ policy will be changing any time soon. Do you believe the sanctions won't hurt UND, or do you not care about UND?? "

The sanctions have already hurt the fb team by not being able to schedule the Gophers, Iowa, WI. The other 3 Dakota schools all had fb games with Big10 teams during their transition.

[Hayduke]

The sanctions have already hurt the fb team by not being able to schedule the Gophers, Iowa, WI. The other 3 Dakota schools all had fb games with Big10 teams during their transition.

I used to disagree with this, but not anymore.

[Chewey]

Posted 11 February 2012 - 09:26 AM

Siouxperman8, on 10 February 2012 - 03:57 PM, said:

I figure that there are 4 groups that signed the petition and are pushing to keep the name. There may be more but here is my list:

• Hockey only crowd - don't care about the university as a whole or the rest of our teams
  
• The anti PC people- Scott Hennen and his stable of neo-cons, they're gonna show the gov't who's boss, problem is the NCAA is a club, not the gov't
  
• Anti UND people - who want to do us harm
  
• Those that don't realize the harm that it will do.
  

Any guesses out there on % of petition signers that fall into each category?

Chewey - I support the petition process and I don't fit into anyone of those groups, especially #2 "neo-con" reference.

ummmmm - your response to this doesn't necessarily jive with your post above

That's because of your own definitions, friend. You presume that only neo-cons, so-called, are cyincal about where we are. I am not a neo-con and you'd probably see me at a few rallies that would surprise you. Whether you're liberal, conservative or whatever, it would take a complete Pollyanna to think that our governmental processes are not completely hosed. It should be obvious to any reasonable-minded and thoughtful individual. Corporations have free speech rights (i.e. donations)? Really? WTF? That's just one example of how that massive and systemic failure has flowed even into the highest realm of the judicial system. Remarkable. If you're position is that only so called neo-cons can have that perspective, you really need to rethink your terms and your own perspective, possibly.

[Chewey]

If you think the average person knows better than UND, the SBHE, and the legislature..... I ask you to take one look at DaveK, luapsided, 10898 (or whatever it is), yababy, and Fetch's posts on this board. Although they are the vocal minority on this site, they are not the minority in the state. They spew lies (which they completely believe) at every turn. Also, since you missed it last time:

"So based on your post about the SL lawsuit, it would appear you don't think the NC$$ policy will be changing any time soon. Do you believe the sanctions won't hurt UND, or do you not care about UND?? "

The NCAA will have to be forced to change. It may change if SL beats SJ or it may soften. Perhaps you haven't been reading, friend. I've said it's the NCAA that's hurting UND's athletes and not the nickname and logo. Obviously, sanctions are hurtful but they are limited to what's spelled out in the surrender agreement. If Franklin is trying to make fans of UND not wear Sioux gear to the Final Five and sanctions UND if they do, well there's more fodder for litigation with anyone with testicular fortitude to do so. Loss of the nickname and logo and 80 years of tradition and the complete lack of respect for traditional ceremonies and the will of Native peoples and giving in to NCAA duplicty, contradictions ("we want the natives to have control over the imagery but we won't listen to them or give them a seat at the table concerning the surrender agreement) and arrogance (can't even spell names of UND officials correctly) are all wors. Instead of attacking the Sioux who are fighting the NCAA and its low-core aggressive dictates, there should be a clarion call (perhaps you'd be a good one to start it) to action against the NCAA by the WHOLE state - SBoHE, the 3 stooges in Congress, UND officials, including Kelley. The longer this goes out, the more national exposure it gets from ESPN, Fox News, etc.

I care about UND - I went there and I'm from ND (Minot). 95% of my family lives in Minot, Wiliston, Tioga, Dickinson,etc. and pays taxes and alumni contributions supporting UND. I care about native americans and their traditions and I care about over 80 years of nickname history and the national exposure native americans get from the nickname and logo. I care about not acquiescing to a loud-mouth, hyper-sensitive, creatively impaired, synapse-dulled, low-core aggressive, fact misrepresenting, bored, thought-stifled super-minority and will not work to sell out UND's historic positives to them. Neither will anyone with any kind of moral or emotional integrity acquiesce to terroristic threats and abusive monopolistic arm-twisting by a so-called "national private organization" run by these same types of synapse-impaired dolts masquerading around as people who can actually think and be stimulated intellectually by fresh ideas. Do you think all of what the NCAA is doing and has done is representative of fresh ideas? I can name some very significant historical figures who have employed the same manner of fresh ideas. I'd say you're line of thinking is wholly pharisaic and simply expedient with respect to what's best for UND. If you put your energies and if the SBoHE and the UND Alumni Association put its energies into pressuring the three stooges, that would be productive energy well spent. Please stay out of any women's shelters, AA groups, etc. where real hope and advocacy are espoused.

[watchmaker49]

The NCAA will have to be forced to change. It may change if SL beats SJ or it may soften. Perhaps you haven't been reading, friend. I've said it's the NCAA that's hurting UND's athletes and not the nickname and logo. Obviously, sanctions are hurtful but they are limited to what's spelled out in the surrender agreement. If Franklin is trying to make fans of UND not wear Sioux gear to the Final Five and sanctions UND if they do, well there's more fodder for litigation with anyone with testicular fortitude to do so. Loss of the nickname and logo and 80 years of tradition and the complete lack of respect for traditional ceremonies and the will of Native peoples and giving in to NCAA duplicty, contradictions ("we want the natives to have control over the imagery but we won't listen to them or give them a seat at the table concerning the surrender agreement) and arrogance (can't even spell names of UND officials correctly) are all wors. Instead of attacking the Sioux who are fighting the NCAA and its low-core aggressive dictates, there should be a clarion call (perhaps you'd be a good one to start it) to action against the NCAA by the WHOLE state - SBoHE, the 3 stooges in Congress, UND officials, including Kelley. The longer this goes out, the more national exposure it gets from ESPN, Fox News, etc.

I care about UND - I went there and I'm from ND (Minot). 95% of my family lives in Minot, Wiliston, Tioga, Dickinson,etc. and pays taxes and alumni contributions supporting UND. I care about native americans and their traditions and I care about over 80 years of nickname history and the national exposure native americans get from the nickname and logo. I care about not acquiescing to a loud-mouth, hyper-sensitive, creatively impaired, synapse-dulled, low-core aggressive, fact misrepresenting, bored, thought-stifled super-minority and will not work to sell out UND's historic positives to them. Neither will anyone with any kind of moral or emotional integrity acquiesce to terroristic threats and abusive monopolistic arm-twisting by a so-called "national private organization" run by these same types of synapse-impaired dolts masquerading around as people who can actually think and be stimulated intellectually by fresh ideas. Do you think all of what the NCAA is doing and has done is representative of fresh ideas? I can name some very significant historical figures who have employed the same manner of fresh ideas. I'd say you're line of thinking is wholly pharisaic and simply expedient with respect to what's best for UND. If you put your energies and if the SBoHE and the UND Alumni Association put its energies into pressuring the three stooges, that would be productive energy well spent. Please stay out of any women's shelters, AA groups, etc. where real hope and advocacy are espoused.

AA groups? Is that not where people go to learn to hand over their problems to a "higher power" in lieu of dealing with said problems? Where is the difference between drinking and not dealing with their problems and turning their problems over to their higher power? I never could see the difference being that the problems are STILL not being dealt with. The difference that I see is that now they have a self-rightous excuse to not deal with the problem and they can pat themselves, and each other, on the back and say, "Well at least we are not drinking". No you may not be drinking but your use of other stimulants such as caffine and nicotine seem grow at a very high rate of useage.

[Cratter]

The sanctions have already hurt the fb team by not being able to schedule the Gophers, Iowa, WI. The other 3 Dakota schools all had fb games with Big10 teams during their transition.

That "hurt" is qualitative not quantitative.

We lost "exposure."

I could say NDSU has been "hurt" by not having hockey.

....see you could argue against that, but its pointless....I was "just saying."

[Siouxperman8]

That's because of your own definitions, friend. You presume that only neo-cons, so-called, are cyincal about where we are. I am not a neo-con and you'd probably see me at a few rallies that would surprise you. Whether you're liberal, conservative or whatever, it would take a complete Pollyanna to think that our governmental processes are not completely hosed. It should be obvious to any reasonable-minded and thoughtful individual. Corporations have free speech rights (i.e. donations)? Really? WTF? That's just one example of how that massive and systemic failure has flowed even into the highest realm of the judicial system. Remarkable. If you're position is that only so called neo-cons can have that perspective, you really need to rethink your terms and your own perspective, possibly.

Thou doth protest too much, me thinks.

[luapsided]

Posted 11 February 2012 - 09:26 AM

Siouxperman8, on 10 February 2012 - 03:57 PM, said:

I figure that there are 4 groups that signed the petition and are pushing to keep the name. There may be more but here is my list:

• Hockey only crowd - don't care about the university as a whole or the rest of our teams
  
• The anti PC people- Scott Hennen and his stable of neo-cons, they're gonna show the gov't who's boss, problem is the NCAA is a club, not the gov't
  
• Anti UND people - who want to do us harm
  
• Those that don't realize the harm that it will do.
  

Any guesses out there on % of petition signers that fall into each category?

Chewey - I support the petition process and I don't fit into anyone of those groups, especially #2 "neo-con" reference.

ummmmm - your response to this doesn't necessarily jive with your post above

You sort of forgot about the people who, once again, matter the most. The ones who started these petitions. I attend all sports and wear the Sioux icon everytime I go, not just hockey. I wish we could vote on this next week, instead of a couple months.....

[UNDBIZ]

The NCAA will have to be forced to change. It may change if SL beats SJ or it may soften. Perhaps you haven't been reading, friend. I've said it's the NCAA that's hurting UND's athletes and not the nickname and logo. Obviously, sanctions are hurtful but they are limited to what's spelled out in the surrender agreement. If Franklin is trying to make fans of UND not wear Sioux gear to the Final Five and sanctions UND if they do, well there's more fodder for litigation with anyone with testicular fortitude to do so. Loss of the nickname and logo and 80 years of tradition and the complete lack of respect for traditional ceremonies and the will of Native peoples and giving in to NCAA duplicty, contradictions ("we want the natives to have control over the imagery but we won't listen to them or give them a seat at the table concerning the surrender agreement) and arrogance (can't even spell names of UND officials correctly) are all wors. Instead of attacking the Sioux who are fighting the NCAA and its low-core aggressive dictates, there should be a clarion call (perhaps you'd be a good one to start it) to action against the NCAA by the WHOLE state - SBoHE, the 3 stooges in Congress, UND officials, including Kelley. The longer this goes out, the more national exposure it gets from ESPN, Fox News, etc.

I care about UND - I went there and I'm from ND (Minot). 95% of my family lives in Minot, Wiliston, Tioga, Dickinson,etc. and pays taxes and alumni contributions supporting UND. I care about native americans and their traditions and I care about over 80 years of nickname history and the national exposure native americans get from the nickname and logo. I care about not acquiescing to a loud-mouth, hyper-sensitive, creatively impaired, synapse-dulled, low-core aggressive, fact misrepresenting, bored, thought-stifled super-minority and will not work to sell out UND's historic positives to them. Neither will anyone with any kind of moral or emotional integrity acquiesce to terroristic threats and abusive monopolistic arm-twisting by a so-called "national private organization" run by these same types of synapse-impaired dolts masquerading around as people who can actually think and be stimulated intellectually by fresh ideas. Do you think all of what the NCAA is doing and has done is representative of fresh ideas? I can name some very significant historical figures who have employed the same manner of fresh ideas. I'd say you're line of thinking is wholly pharisaic and simply expedient with respect to what's best for UND. If you put your energies and if the SBoHE and the UND Alumni Association put its energies into pressuring the three stooges, that would be productive energy well spent. Please stay out of any women's shelters, AA groups, etc. where real hope and advocacy are espoused.

Apparently I struck a nerve and that wasn't my intent. All the things you say need to be done can be done without hurting UND. At this point UND doesn't have any more ammo; they are handcuffed by the settlement agreement and King Al's idiotic law. Leave UND out of it, pursue the SL lawsuit against the NC$$, and get the NC$$'s hipocrisy into the media. Legally, the NC$$ has all the power (so the lawsuit probably won't work). To get them to change, there must be public (Native American) outcry in the media (against the NCAA, not the SBHE and UND). I agree that getting Senator stache and Representive Ricky Rich involved couldn't hurt. This can be done without harming UND.

[Siouxperman8]

You sort of forgot about the people who, once again, matter the most. The ones who started these petitions. I attend all sports and wear the Sioux icon everytime I go, not just hockey. I wish we could vote on this next week, instead of a couple months.....

The ones that matter the most are the current and future students and athletes. The tribes had a chance to support us nickname backers and didn't act. It appeared to me that they were happy to finally have the power and weren't going to help UND out with the NCAA problem.

I also wear multiple Sioux logos every time I attend a game and will again today. Even if the nickname leaves I will continue to do so. It just isn't worth the price we are paying now and will continue to pay in the future to officially keep the name.

[LeftyZL]

Apparently I struck a nerve and that wasn't my intent. All the things you say need to be done can be done without hurting UND. At this point UND doesn't have any more ammo; they are handcuffed by the settlement agreement and King Al's idiotic law. Leave UND out of it, pursue the SL lawsuit against the NC$$, and get the NC$$'s hipocrisy into the media. Legally, the NC$$ has all the power (so the lawsuit probably won't work). To get them to change, there must be public (Native American) outcry in the media (against the NCAA, not the SBHE and UND). I agree that getting Senator stache and Representive Ricky Rich involved couldn't hurt. This can be done without harming UND.

Again, the question to be asked:

Where was all this urgency when the sanctions were first announced?

The AG agreed to a crappy settlement and it was all slowly downhill after that.

[Fetch]

For all of U who like to call folks liers - Here I finally did one just for U http://forum.siouxsports.com/topic/4767-prospective-sioux-recruits/page__st__7860

[Fetch]

Gee I should apply for this http://forum.siouxsports.com/topic/4767-prospective-sioux-recruits/page__st__7860 they could use my talent

[82SiouxGuy]

Gee I should apply for this http://forum.siouxsp.../page__st__7860 they could use my talent

I didn't know it was even possible, but you are making less sense than usual lately.

[dlsiouxfan]

You sort of forgot about the people who, once again, matter the most. The ones who started these petitions. I attend all sports and wear the Sioux icon everytime I go, not just hockey. I wish we could vote on this next week, instead of a couple months.....

Why exactly should the opinions of these people matter the most? Should the fact they they were born Sioux Indian trump nearly everyone elses voice in this, including alumni whose dollars bankroll the programs they want to co-opt? Is UND and UND athletics sole purpose to honor the Sioux tribes? I'd really like to hear your answer on this.

[Hayduke]

Why exactly should the opinions of these people matter the most? Should the fact they they were born Sioux Indian trump nearly everyone elses voice in this, including alumni whose dollars bankroll the programs they want to co-opt? Is UND and UND athletics sole purpose to honor the Sioux tribes? I'd really like to hear your answer on this.

Those are good questions.

1. Yes, the tribes should have a say. I don't believe that the SR tribal elders have allowed their people to have their say, but that is up for debate.

2. No. The honoring of the Sioux tribes should not be the SOLE purpose of UND or UND athletics.

There. Hope I cleared it all up for you now!

[dlsiouxfan]

Those are good questions.

1. Yes, the tribes should have a say. I don't believe that the SR tribal elders have allowed their people to have their say, but that is up for debate.

2. No. The honoring of the Sioux tribes should not be the SOLE purpose of UND or UND athletics.

There. Hope I cleared it all up for you now!

To clarify, I agree that the tribes should have a say in how the logo and nickname are used. However, especially now that nickname supporters both within the tribe and outside the tribe are expecting the athletic programs at UND to suffer serious consequences to retain the Fighting Sioux nickame, I don't think that tribal support of the nickname alone is a good enough reason to retain the nickname. The opinions of the tribes matter little when UND athletes will be the ones who actually have to suffer to keep the Sioux nickname.

[iramurphy]

After all of the accusations from Frank Burgraff, Fetch, Dave K. and friends I would like to pose a question. Is this really about the downtrodden Native Americans and their rights? Are we really going to stand up to the NCAA? Those of us who have been called cowards or sheep because we see the bigger picture and the importance of putting UND and UND athletics in a better postion to succeed have decided no matter how we feel about the name, the risk is too real. Will those of you who claim this is more important than UND athletics, demand UND wear the logo jerseys for the upcoming NCAA playoffs and then accept the NCAA penalty of forfeiting the game? If UND would wear the logo jerseys it would do more than anything thus far, to bring this to a national level and expose the NCAA hypocrisy. Can you imagine the media madness if a University made such a stand against the biased policies of the NCAA and was willing to risk a National Championship in order to make our point and stand up for the rights of the Sioux nation? If you would do that , then I may disagree, but I respect your opinion no matter how misguided and you have the courage of your convictions. I would like Frank Burgraff to publically demand UND wear the jerseys if he really believes in this cause. Otherwise he is just a mouthy 4th line aggitator and loses his credibility. Are you folks dedicated to this issue or not? If so, you should be calling for UND to wear the logo jerseys as a matter of principle. If not, then you are not committed to the cause and just making noise. To be willing to let the punishments hurt others and not you or your favorite team, would be cowardice in my book . Otherwise, it is clearly time to drop the name and move on and I am not sure I know of a better example to try and get some of you to see what is at stake. On a personal note Fetch, if you are going to the regionals and still want that beer, I buy you that beer and a few more as long as you don't drive me nuts. I'll be at Embassy Suites

[zonadub]

After all of the accusations from Frank Burgraff, Fetch, Dave K. and friends I would like to pose a question. Is this really about the downtrodden Native Americans and their rights? Are we really going to stand up to the NCAA? Those of us who have been called cowards or sheep because we see the bigger picture and the importance of putting UND and UND athletics in a better postion to succeed have decided no matter how we feel about the name, the risk is too real. Will those of you who claim this is more important than UND athletics, demand UND wear the logo jerseys for the upcoming NCAA playoffs and then accept the NCAA penalty of forfeiting the game? If UND would wear the logo jerseys it would do more than anything thus far, to bring this to a national level and expose the NCAA hypocrisy. Can you imagine the media madness if a University made such a stand against the biased policies of the NCAA and was willing to risk a National Championship in order to make our point and stand up for the rights of the Sioux nation? If you would do that , then I may disagree, but I respect your opinion no matter how misguided and you have the courage of your convictions. I would like Frank Burgraff to publically demand UND wear the jerseys if he really believes in this cause. Otherwise he is just a mouthy 4th line aggitator and loses his credibility. Are you folks dedicated to this issue or not? If so, you should be calling for UND to wear the logo jerseys as a matter of principle. If not, then you are not committed to the cause and just making noise. To be willing to let the punishments hurt others and not you or your favorite team, would be cowardice in my book . Otherwise, it is clearly time to drop the name and move on and I am not sure I know of a better example to try and get some of you to see what is at stake. On a personal note Fetch, if you are going to the regionals and still want that beer, I buy you that beer and a few more as long as you don't drive me nuts. I'll be at Embassy Suites

Wow! What a concept! Don't think I would have the cojones to make a statement like that, but what a bold move it would be. If there would be any way to call national attention to the hypocrisy of the NCAA, this would be it. To have the Sioux skate out on to the ice in their traditional logo jerseys and then have the NCAA call off the game before the puck even drops. Intriguing idea, Ira, but crazy consequences. By the way, yes, I realize you are being at least a little sarcastic, but just crazy enough to be thought-provoking.

[Hayduke]

To clarify, I agree that the tribes should have a say in how the logo and nickname are used. However, especially now that nickname supporters both within the tribe and outside the tribe are expecting the athletic programs at UND to suffer serious consequences to retain the Fighting Sioux nickame, I don't think that tribal support of the nickname alone is a good enough reason to retain the nickname. The opinions of the tribes matter little when UND athletes will be the ones who actually have to suffer to keep the Sioux nickname.

I am of the same mindset.

In the meantime, I feel pretty confident that Hakstol will handle the situation with the uniforms very well this weekend.

You know, maybe the best thing for the idea of tolerating dropping the nickname would be winning an NCAA championship without the Sioux uniform?

[Gma loves hockey]

I do believe the time has come to retire the name but I would really like to see a contingent of Native Americans wearing the Sioux jerseys sitting in the bench behind the UND hockey team at the NCAA finals.

[Chewey]

After all of the accusations from Frank Burgraff, Fetch, Dave K. and friends I would like to pose a question. Is this really about the downtrodden Native Americans and their rights? Are we really going to stand up to the NCAA? Those of us who have been called cowards or sheep because we see the bigger picture and the importance of putting UND and UND athletics in a better postion to succeed have decided no matter how we feel about the name, the risk is too real. Will those of you who claim this is more important than UND athletics, demand UND wear the logo jerseys for the upcoming NCAA playoffs and then accept the NCAA penalty of forfeiting the game? If UND would wear the logo jerseys it would do more than anything thus far, to bring this to a national level and expose the NCAA hypocrisy. Can you imagine the media madness if a University made such a stand against the biased policies of the NCAA and was willing to risk a National Championship in order to make our point and stand up for the rights of the Sioux nation? If you would do that , then I may disagree, but I respect your opinion no matter how misguided and you have the courage of your convictions. I would like Frank Burgraff to publically demand UND wear the jerseys if he really believes in this cause. Otherwise he is just a mouthy 4th line aggitator and loses his credibility. Are you folks dedicated to this issue or not? If so, you should be calling for UND to wear the logo jerseys as a matter of principle. If not, then you are not committed to the cause and just making noise. To be willing to let the punishments hurt others and not you or your favorite team, would be cowardice in my book . Otherwise, it is clearly time to drop the name and move on and I am not sure I know of a better example to try and get some of you to see what is at stake. On a personal note Fetch, if you are going to the regionals and still want that beer, I buy you that beer and a few more as long as you don't drive me nuts. I'll be at Embassy Suites

Actually, that's an idea but there will be plenty of word talking about why they're not wearing their usual jersies anyway. In my opinion, that's exactly what they should do. The nickname and logo are not hostile and abusive. The nickname and logo are supported by the native american namesake tribes (expressly stated and expressly acknowledged support on SL and support on SR by a majority who is being prevented from voting. The NCAA policy is idiotic and capricious and unevenly applied. What a better stage to really get this challenged? It's about more than a nickname and logo - on a tribal level, on a state level and on a university level. If you truly support the athletes, the tribes, the history of UND athletics, the people of ND, then you stand up in favor of 80 years of rich tradition, you tell your alumni association and SBoHE and university officials to have some spine and lobby your Congressional delegation and speak with one voice of opposition to the NCAA. You do not engage in expedient disassociation. So they wear the jersies and their championship (if the win it) gets yanked? UND to NCAA: We did not engage in recruiting violations. We did not get prostitutes for our athletes. We did not pay our athletes. We did not allow our athletes to cheat on tests or allow their tutors to take exams for them. All we did was wear/display some native american imagery (it's approved by the vast majority of native americans by the way) that you just don't like.

[iramurphy]

Well then Chewey, I respect your opinion. I disagree cuz I was an athlete and I would want to compete and win a National title and I would rather wear no logo than lose a game forfeiting the game rather than making a team earn it. I would rather have someone else fight with the politicians and the NCAA because we aren't on a level playing field, but good for you. Your points are well taken. The NCAA does little for the multiple violations we see in D1 athletics but punishes a school for trying to honor citizens of the state in a respectful manner. Load of crap, but thus far the courts seem to agree they have the power. Go Sioux!

[Chewey]

Actually Ira, I doubt the NCAA would want to revoke a championship banner for a team's wearing of "offensive" imagery. That sort of publicity is exactly what is needed. So, the NCAA revokes a banner because a team's wearing a uniform that it feels honors a class of people (intentions are pure) and that same class of people (at least a lot of them anyway) has come out in favor of it. No dishonor at all. Rather, it would be just non-compliance with some arbitrary NCAA mandate that has no foundation in reason or fact.

[iramurphy]

I have no doubt in my mind those jerks would require UND to forfeit the Saturday game and I wouldn't take a chance. It isn't that easy to get this far. As you noted new jerseys without the logo will likely create some discussion.