KSSioux Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 I want to reiterate what the second to last sentance in the letter to the university said, "Therefore, we ask that the university take measures to minimize or eliminate the presence of the imagery or nickname brought to an NCAA championship event". This is after the bullet points about the student athletes, band, cheerleaders, etc, and is definitely a reference to the fans and supporters. For those of you who do not think this is the case, I feel for you. I do agree with the statements above about a public place and freedom of speech and I do not think the NCAA will do anything about it at this event, but are going to be watching and I am sure will be reporting back to the university. I applaud President Kelley for actually making a statement in support of this, as it is quite unusual for him, and is the first support on this that I have seen. This is why I am in support of the Spirit Lake law suit and will continue with them in that battle. It is a freedom of speech issue for me and I do not like the direction our country is going and will fight this fight with them. I may not agree with all of their arguements, but I will be by thier side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jodcon Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 I'm curious if the ESPN affiliates will be using the nickname during their coverage of the NCAA tournament. Also, would anyone put it past the NCAA to request they not show highlights from previous games where our nickname and logo are prominently displayed? Often times they'll lead into a game showing highlights of how the two teams got there. Maybe since ESPN is not the NCAA it has no say; but I suppose it could be in their broadcast contract somewhere. I have no doubt that the cameras will catch people in the crowd with Sioux jerseys on many times, there's really no avoiding that part of it as well as the team is followed. And if I was a betting man (actually I guess I am a betting man) I would bet that at least once or twice (or 20 times) the announcer will let the "Fighting Sioux" slip out, especially if he's a decent college hockey guy...you can't forget history overnight. It will be interesting how they choose to show and talk about the 7 titles the Sioux have won, it's always well-documented during any Sioux tourney appearance...would take quite a bit of editing to show some of those old teams without getting the front of any jerseys in the shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benny Baker Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 I want to reiterate what the second to last sentance in the letter to the university said, "Therefore, we ask that the university take measures to minimize or eliminate the presence of the imagery or nickname brought to an NCAA championship event". This is after the bullet points about the student athletes, band, cheerleaders, etc, and is definitely a reference to the fans and supporters. For those of you who do not think this is the case, I feel for you. I do agree with the statements above about a public place and freedom of speech and I do not think the NCAA will do anything about it at this event, but are going to be watching and I am sure will be reporting back to the university. I applaud President Kelley for actually making a statement in support of this, as it is quite unusual for him, and is the first support on this that I have seen. This is why I am in support of the Spirit Lake law suit and will continue with them in that battle. It is a freedom of speech issue for me and I do not like the direction our country is going and will fight this fight with them. I may not agree with all of their arguements, but I will be by thier side. Respectfully disagree as your interpretation is not at all what the letter is stating. In fact, it's quite clear that the letter is referring to university representatives. For sake of brevity, the letter essentially states: If UND representatives wear the sioux nickname or imagery the team forfeits. "Therefore, we ask that the university take measures to minimize or eliminate the presence of the imagery or nickname . . . ." The word "therefore" necessarily references a preceding statement. In this case, the presence of the sioux nickname or logo with university representatives. It takes a bold leap in logic to somehow infer that this quoted sentence refers to individuals that are independent from the University---individuals that the letter doesn't even bother to mention by name, category, etc. How is UND supposed to control anyone other than UND representatives? How is UND going to prevent the wearing of sioux imagery by opposing teams' fans that are hopeful that the mere presence of a sioux logo will result in a UND forfeit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darell1976 Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 ESPN can show highlights of UND's hockey past and present. If they can do that at Marquette or Stanford, or Dartmouth they can do it at UND. Its called history, just like when the NCAA said not ALL logos at the REA has to go, they are of historical value, just like our 7 DI titles are historical. They (NCAA) cannot police the fans because at Dartmouth the students and fans still wear Indians shirts. As long as the band, cheerleaders, and members of the team don't have the name and logo UND will be fine. If Joe Blow shows up in a UND Blackhawk jersey or any UND Indian logo jersey the NCAA isn't going to do anything. I listened to Pat Sweeney call a UND hockey or basketball game during the brief retirement (before the petitions were complete) and let the "Sioux" word slip. It happens, I think the NCAA get it. I am sure it happened at Marquette going from Warriors to Eagles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
82SiouxGuy Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Respectfully disagree as your interpretation is not at all what the letter is stating. In fact, it's quite clear that the letter is referring to university representatives. For sake of brevity, the letter essentially states: If UND representatives wear the sioux nickname or imagery the team forfeits. "Therefore, we ask that the university take measures to minimize or eliminate the presence of the imagery or nickname . . . ." The word "therefore" necessarily references a preceding statement. In this case, the presence of the sioux nickname or logo with university representatives. It takes a bold leap in logic to somehow infer that this quoted sentence refers to individuals that are independent from the University---individuals that the letter doesn't even bother to mention by name, category, etc. How is UND supposed to control anyone other than UND representatives? How is UND going to prevent the wearing of sioux imagery by opposing teams' fans that are hopeful that the mere presence of a sioux logo will result in a UND forfeit? I agree with you completely. The NCAA has been very careful to spell out every detail related to this issue. If they were going to make an issue of fans wearing clothing with the logo they would spell that out also. And that would be a much bigger legal and public relations problem for them, so they are not going to do it. Wear whatever you want to the games (as long as it isn't something that could be considered obscene). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSSioux Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Benny, I guess I will have to respectfully disagree with you on the main premise, but I will agree with your comments. The letter clearly states that the athletes CANNOT wear anything with the logo or nickname in the bullet points. Therefore, why would that statement be in the document to "minimize or eliminate the presence". There is no gray with the athletes to "minimize", and this is to me a clear statement that the NCAA wants UND to direct the fans and supporters to not wear the gear. The "Therefore" statement can also be used to expand upon an original or previous statement, which I believe is the purpose. I am not saying that the NCAA will forfeit UND in fans wear the logo, or shout "Sioux" at the end of the anthem, but I am saying that the NCAA can use this to put pressure on UND and I believe that they will. As I stated, I agree that they do not have control over a public facility, but who is to say that in a private facility that the NCAA would not put out their goon squad to not let folks in wearing the logo or nickname at some point. I am not willing to stick my head in the sand on this issue and if I were the university I would make the NCAA give a statement to the university to say they will not monitor fan clothing. I would hope the recent statement from President Kelley may have sparked something under him that this is bigger than he thought. After everything that the NCAA has put forward I do not trust them at all, and I would hope others do not, and at least request a clarification in writing in that regard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darell1976 Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Anyone else think its odd how all other UND sports do not have a uniform problem except hockey? Makes you wonder if we were like NDSU without a hockey team if this fight would still be going on. Or if Al Carlson just wanted to take down UND's #1 sport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottM Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 I am not saying that the NCAA will forfeit UND in fans wear the logo, or shout "Sioux" at the end of the anthem, but I am saying that the NCAA can use this to put pressure on UND and I believe that they will. Why on Earth would anybody think the NC$$ wants to "pressure" UND on this issue? They've essentially won, and the unis the team wears this weekend prove it. The only "pressure" UND faces is from people who were MIA in 2005 and who think they're doing us a favor now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdub27 Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Anyone else think its odd how all other UND sports do not have a uniform problem except hockey? Makes you wonder if we were like NDSU without a hockey team if this fight would still be going on. Or if Al Carlson just wanted to take down UND's #1 sport. The other sports have more serious issues than jerseys. Hosting a home playoff game is more important than what logo is on the jersey you are wearing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darell1976 Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 The other sports have more serious issues than jerseys. Hosting a home playoff game is more important than what logo is on the jersey you are wearing. Not in basketball. The only sports affected would be football and hockey for playoff games (I am unsure about volleyball). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
82SiouxGuy Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 The NCAA is controlling what is in their power to control. They can control what the schools do at NCAA events, or punish schools that resist. They can control printing and signage. They can control advertising. They can't control fans. They don't try to control what fans wear for games at other schools that have changed their nicknames. They aren't going to do anything about fans wearing Fighting Sioux clothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jodcon Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 ESPN can show highlights of UND's hockey past and present. If they can do that at Marquette or Stanford, or Dartmouth they can do it at UND. Its called history, just like when the NCAA said not ALL logos at the REA has to go, they are of historical value, just like our 7 DI titles are historical. They (NCAA) cannot police the fans because at Dartmouth the students and fans still wear Indians shirts. As long as the band, cheerleaders, and members of the team don't have the name and logo UND will be fine. If Joe Blow shows up in a UND Blackhawk jersey or any UND Indian logo jersey the NCAA isn't going to do anything. I listened to Pat Sweeney call a UND hockey or basketball game during the brief retirement (before the petitions were complete) and let the "Sioux" word slip. It happens, I think the NCAA get it. I am sure it happened at Marquette going from Warriors to Eagles. I agree with all that I'm just interested to see how much effort is made NOT to show the name/logo or refer to the old Sioux teams as what they were, more than anything to see how much influence the NCAA has on ESPN to repress the Sioux nickname from anyones memory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darell1976 Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 I agree with all that I'm just interested to see how much effort is made NOT to show the name/logo or refer to the old Sioux teams as what they were, more than anything to see how much influence the NCAA has on ESPN to repress the Sioux nickname from anyones memory. I guess ESPN could blur out the name and logo on all the film. They could just ask how they do it at St. Cloud State since our name and logo hasn't been recognized there for years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hayduke Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 I guess ESPN could blur out the name and logo on all the film. They could just ask how they do it at St. Cloud State since our name and logo hasn't been recognized there for years. St. Cloud State? Never heard of them. Have they done anything important in college hockey? That's probably why I have no memory of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benny Baker Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Benny, I guess I will have to respectfully disagree with you on the main premise, but I will agree with your comments. The letter clearly states that the athletes CANNOT wear anything with the logo or nickname in the bullet points. Therefore, why would that statement be in the document to "minimize or eliminate the presence". There is no gray with the athletes to "minimize", and this is to me a clear statement that the NCAA wants UND to direct the fans and supporters to not wear the gear. The "Therefore" statement can also be used to expand upon an original or previous statement, which I believe is the purpose. I am not saying that the NCAA will forfeit UND in fans wear the logo, or shout "Sioux" at the end of the anthem, but I am saying that the NCAA can use this to put pressure on UND and I believe that they will. As I stated, I agree that they do not have control over a public facility, but who is to say that in a private facility that the NCAA would not put out their goon squad to not let folks in wearing the logo or nickname at some point. I am not willing to stick my head in the sand on this issue and if I were the university I would make the NCAA give a statement to the university to say they will not monitor fan clothing. I would hope the recent statement from President Kelley may have sparked something under him that this is bigger than he thought. After everything that the NCAA has put forward I do not trust them at all, and I would hope others do not, and at least request a clarification in writing in that regard. UND reps, including players, can wear whatever they want to the games. However, if they're wearing the sioux logo or nickname, then UND forfeits. Therefore, the letter asks UND to minimize or eliminate the presence of the logo so that UND will not forfeit and the tournament will go on smoothly as it should. If the NCAA begins having an issue with fans or private citizens who wear the sioux logo at NCAA events, then the NCAA will enforce that policy at the doors of the venue on its own. The NCAA has never nor ever will place the onus on UND to police every single fan at an NCAA event. Sure, the NCAA could put "pressure on UND" to prevent fans from wearing the sioux logo, but given the recent state of public affairs in North Dakota, we all know that this will have absolutely zero effect and be entirely futile. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pontoonin Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Hypothetical Thought: How about when the SIoux Mens Hockey team makes it to the Frozen 4 (or final 2) and (after warm ups) come out on the ice with the Sioux sweaters on. Forfeit the National Championships but gain some respect an national spotlight on how ridiculous the fuNCAA is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darell1976 Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Hypothetical Thought: How about when the SIoux Mens Hockey team makes it to the Frozen 4 (or final 2) and (after warm ups) come out on the ice with the Sioux sweaters on. Forfeit the National Championships but gain some respect an national spotlight on how ridiculous the fuNCAA is. Nothing will happen to the NCAA unless congress gets involved. Even if UND were forced to forfiet and there is a media storm the NCAA will do nothing. They are the giant and we are peasants the only way to take down the giant...get a bigger giant (congress). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pontoonin Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Congress, interesting. That would really take the cake. Unfortunately I am sure they have better things to worry about, but who knows how much time it could take, it sure would be the icing on the cake for Rep Berg though! Unfortunatly my boss just ran into Hoeven this weekend, I should have had him throw in a jab about it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darell1976 Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Congress, interesting. That would really take the cake. Unfortunately I am sure they have better things to worry about, but who knows how much time it could take, it sure would be the icing on the cake for Rep Berg though! Unfortunatly my boss just ran into Hoeven this weekend, I should have had him throw in a jab about it! Thats how Florida State got the NCAA shaking in their shoes when the policy of 2005 came out. Their delegates got involved, ours stand silent. Which gets me they (Dorgan, and Pomeroy) went to UND why not stand up for their school (Conrad didn't go to UND). Now there are no UND alumns in congress and still the 3 in congress does nothing (Berg-NDSU, Hoeven-Dartmouth (intersting he was there during their Indians nickname removal), and Conrad-George Washington). Lost cause counting on those 3 to do something now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iramurphy Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 In 2005 FSU had the same requirements UND did. Get one tribe to support you. FSU, Utah and Central Michigan all got a representative tribe to support them. We didn't I am not sure why you think they needed help from their legislators unless there is evidence that is how they got the tribal support. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brainerd Sioux Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 UND was required 2 tribes, not one! Thats the problem! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottM Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 UND was required 2 tribes, not one! Thats the problem! That's the deal we made. Moreover, the SL regime at that time didn't even really support UND's continued use of the Sioux moniker. Now they're f**king things up for UND. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
82SiouxGuy Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 UND was required 2 tribes, not one! Thats the problem! UND was only required to get approval from 1 tribe during the original appeal process. That was from 2005-2006. No tribes stepped up to give the approval. UND sued the NCAA. The NCAA required 2 tribes in the settlement, and in return gave UND an extra 3 years to get approval (actually 4 because of the time of the lawsuit) and the NCAA issued a statement that UND wasn't hostile and abusive. It is absolutely ridiculous to think that the NCAA would give UND several extra years to get approval without getting something in return. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petey23 Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 I wasn't aware FSU played hockey. If someone had the backbone they would wear the current UND jersey and see if the NCAA is bluffing. FSU went through the required steps and had immediate approval from their state's Seminole tribe and their state gov't immediately challenged the NCAAwhen the sanction list came out. UND did not. Wearing an FSU shirt wouldn't change that. No, but it does put the hypocrisy of the NCAA on full display. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yababy8 Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Hypothetical Thought: How about when the SIoux Mens Hockey team makes it to the Frozen 4 (or final 2) and (after warm ups) come out on the ice with the Sioux sweaters on. Forfeit the National Championships but gain some respect an national spotlight on how ridiculous the fuNCAA is. The time to do it is AFTER the Sioux receive the championship trophy, they Should all pull off their sweaters and expose fighting Sioux forever t-shirts. Then if the NCAA wants to try to take our title away they can go ahead and see how that works for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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