Conference Realignments - Take 2

[Bison Dan]

3 hours ago, jdub27 said:

Those fees were approved by the students.

Do you realize that your athletic department showed a $857K deficit last year? 

I guess they should have budgeted a couple of million more of institutional funds like you guys and show a million dollars in the positive.  

[fightingsioux4life]

On ‎2‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 1:38 PM, SWSiouxMN said:

Help an ignorant soul

Who was this notorious JBB?

A crazed Bison fan whom I have debated on many different forums over the years. Definitely one of my toughest opponents.

[SiouxVolley]

11 minutes ago, fightingsioux4life said:

A crazed Bison fan whom I have debated on many different forums over the years. Definitely one of my toughest opponents.

This is the typical bison troll, gets your dander up but never hits the logic target:

There were all kinds of trolls here that said UND would never move up, UND would never ever get in the Big Sky, and now, UND could never go FBS but NDSU is open to it.

[jdub27]

1 hour ago, Bison Dan said:

I guess they should have budgeted a couple of million more of institutional funds like you guys and show a million dollars in the positive.  

I'm the end, how do you think it ends up being covered genius? 

[Milo]

Hi siouxfan67,   UND has no money for FBS football.  Competitive with Indiana State maybe, Missouri State?  Possibly. SIU?  Maybe. But FBS?  You don’t even know, and apparently don’t want to know, how much money UND has for FBS football.  after the BIg Sky fiasco, analaysis of available guarantee money for OOC games and a revue of coaching salaries it would appear very little. 

it would be like University of North Dakota- Idaho.

Neither NDSU or UND are viable FBS candidates financially.   Right now NDSU is in better shape.    After another 20 years of growth one or both will be there, if there is a there  The way things are going marginal football programs will have a hard time surviving  Successful programs will consolidate into their own leagues.  

When the talk turns to successful football programs NDSU gets mentioned a lot.  They are a lot like Augie that way   When the talk turns to moving up they get mentioned. NDSU is the big time Augie  UND is the new Idaho.

 

 

 

[SIOUXFAN97]

didn't know that cal-state bakerfield is leaving the WAC for the Big West...i know that bozeman, missoula, grand forks, fargo, brookings, and vermillion in the winter time aren't the most beautiful....but when it comes to athletics aren't you supposed to strive to play higher echelon of competition (and academics too maybe!!).....for a school like Seattle why are you associating yourself with dixie state, cal baptist, grand canyon, chicago state, utah valley, utgrvr...and soon metro state?

siouxvolley is 100 percent correct...the commishs the big sky, summit, and wac need to pickup the phone and "trade schools" and the schools with football all end up in the WAC and have a plan to jump to FBS in the next 5-10 years with the goal of being the MAC of the West....Western Athletic Conference.

WAC

Montana, Montana State, UND, NDAC, USD, SDAC, Idaho, Seattle, and Denver (7 FB, 9 Total)

Summit

Chicago State, UM-KC, Fort Wayne, Western Illinois, Omaha, Oral Roberts, Texas-Rio Grande, Grand Canyon, Dixie State, Cal Baptist, and NMSU (WIU drops FB or closes and NMSU gets a FBS conference invite down the road?...) 

Big Sky

Weber State, Sac State, Portland State, EWU, NAU, SUU, UVU, Northern Colorado, Idaho State (UVU adds FB?....)

[ND-fan]

I have a few questions the switch to different conferences weren't there additional costs to joining the conferences. Also weren't there still be on going costs for those programs that were cut because commitments to coaches and players to be honored. Also the football program has had no decrease in costs for travel now with us continuing to play a Big Sky schedule. To me all this leading up to we won't know what final numbers for expenses and revenue for UND will be until the transitions are fully complete. Also on the revenue side of things Summit did nothing to help with scheduling of games this year to help promote attendance. Having all three of bigger rivalry games scheduled on Wednesday nights hard to promote on middle of the week games and then we in return get weekend games with all three on the road. I don't see where either NDSU or UND move up a division in football. The first thing is neither one of them have the money to compete at that level. Go look at these FBS programs they are spending money on their football like we spend on all of our sports some of them are paying their coaching staffs over 50% of what we are spending on all sports. Then add in it will require new stadium that at least seats between 40 to 50 thousand people this alone would require expenditure of  over 100 million to get it built. Then it also comes to filling that stadium and it will not be like it is now where your consistent winner year in year out . I just don't see it in the cards now or even in the future. I know there are FBS schools with smaller stadiums but I don't think the economics are there if you don't get increase in attendance to compete in upper division. From what I can read there are a lot in FBS division that are really struggling to make it work and it may not work for the long term.  The summit conference could use could use couple more members to help with scheduling and also get better travel planning. It seems to me that Northern Colorado would be likely member to be part of Summit conference.  Also what happens to NDSU on budgeting if the program comes back to rest of pack in Football where they just don't see the success they have had in playoffs  how does that effect there budgets and revenue. They have had very good run but like all things luck changes where you can be successful but may not be winning repeated championships how will that effect them long term I can't help but think revenue will drop for them.

[SIOUXFAN97]

Endowments for the new WAC

Denver University-711 million 

UND-270 million

Idaho-238 million

USD-215 million

Seattle University-211 million

NDAC-202 million

Montana-177 million

SDAC-122 million

Montana State-120 million

Essentially trading Seattle (211 Million), Montana (177 Million) , Montana State (120 Million), and Idaho (238 Million) for Western Illinois (60 Million), Omaha (72 Million), Oral Roberts (38 Million), and PU-Fort Wayne(60 Million)

746 Million versus 230 Million

 

New WAC Endowment=1.7 Billion for 9 schools

New Big Sky Endowment=620 for 9 schools

New Summit Endowment=548 plus Grand Canyon for 11 schools

 

 

Denver, UND, Idaho, USD, Seattle, and Montana all have Law Schools

UND and USD have Medical Schools

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SIOUXFAN97]

16 minutes ago, ND-fan said:

I have a few questions the switch to different conferences weren't there additional costs to joining the conferences. Also weren't there still be on going costs for those programs that were cut because commitments to coaches and players to be honored. Also the football program has had no decrease in costs for travel now with us continuing to play a Big Sky schedule. To me all this leading up to we won't know what final numbers for expenses and revenue for UND will be until the transitions are fully complete. Also on the revenue side of things Summit did nothing to help with scheduling of games this year to help promote attendance. Having all three of bigger rivalry games scheduled on Wednesday nights hard to promote on middle of the week games and then we in return get weekend games with all three on the road. I don't see where either NDSU or UND move up a division in football. The first thing is neither one of them have the money to compete at that level. Go look at these FBS programs they are spending money on their football like we spend on all of our sports some of them are paying their coaching staffs over 50% of what we are spending on all sports. Then add in it will require new stadium that at least seats between 40 to 50 thousand people this alone would require expenditure of  over 100 million to get it built. Then it also comes to filling that stadium and it will not be like it is now where your consistent winner year in year out . I just don't see it in the cards now or even in the future. I know there are FBS schools with smaller stadiums but I don't think the economics are there if you don't get increase in attendance to compete in upper division. From what I can read there are a lot in FBS division that are really struggling to make it work and it may not work for the long term.  The summit conference could use could use couple more members to help with scheduling and also get better travel planning. It seems to me that Northern Colorado would be likely member to be part of Summit conference.  Also what happens to NDSU on budgeting if the program comes back to rest of pack in Football where they just don't see the success they have had in playoffs  how does that effect there budgets and revenue. They have had very good run but like all things luck changes where you can be successful but may not be winning repeated championships how will that effect them long term I can't help but think revenue will drop for them.

no fees to enter or exit any of the 3 conferences....travel is probably a wash...trading moscow, missoula, and bozeman for fort wayne, macomb, and oral roberts.....and FBS is availalbe down the road if it makes sense...it works for the MAC and Sun Belt and our finances and endowments are just as good if not better than a lot of schools in the MAC and Sun Belt.

[SiouxFan100]

6 minutes ago, SIOUXFAN97 said:

no fees to enter or exit any of the 3 conferences....travel is probably a wash...trading moscow, missoula, and bozeman for fort wayne, macomb, and oral roberts.....and FBS is availalbe down the road if it makes sense...it works for the MAC and Sun Belt and our finances and endowments are just as good if not better than a lot of schools in the MAC and Sun Belt.

Is this just posters dreams and wishes or is there any discussion amongst college presidents on any of this?

[zonadub]

Th MAC and Sun Belt are the schools that are in the most trouble. If the level of a new WAC matches, but does not exceed them, the benefit of moving up is questionable. I think the list of schools you have laid out, however would be a great conference if you could actually pull it together. 

[SIOUXFAN97]

1 hour ago, SiouxFan100 said:

Is this just posters dreams and wishes or is there any discussion amongst college presidents on any of this?

who knows...all i know is that the nchc was started with this kind of thinking and whether you like it or not it has worked out well both for the smaller schools "left behind" and the bigger schools "moving forward"....

[Milo]

Lol. OK. Except the new NCHC was started after the big ten got sick of the Augies in their league. They separated themselves from the D2s.   I guess they didn’t consider those endowment numbers that places UND firmly in the lower echelons with Idaho  After Denver which has 711 million, 3 times UNDs size,  there wasn’t one hockey school except UND.  Denver has no football.

None of the schools listed with endowments the size of UNDs has a full slate of D1 sports including hockey, FBS football and basketball.  None of the schools are FBS.   Idaho gave it run And failed.  Idaho doesn’t have hockey.

When it comes to football obviously “The AC” is by far the best on that list.  They don’t have to fund hockey which makes any FBS invite they may receive easier to contemplate but still out of reach today. 

Before moving into the FCS WAC or inviting yourselves into the MAC seriously consider the OOC schedule.  Who is going to come to the Alerus?  How much can you pay them?   Besides all the schools in the “new” conferences are FCS now.  Why not just play those same schools in this division?  The idea they are going to form some type of FBS conference begs the question why?  

After 10 years and the big win a narrow victory over lowly Wyoming a few years ago and on the wrong end of blowouts galore from all levels what are the realistic chances of success for UND in the FBS?  How successful have they been to date?  

There aren’t enough resources and UND isn’t compelling enough now to recruit successfully and hire top notch coaches that can be successful in the FCS.

None of this FBS talk makes much sense or has a realistic purpose especially considering the weakness of the UND business model.  It couldn’t handle the costs of the Big Sky. 

A lot of schools UNDs  budget size that have hockey don’t have football at all.  Most of the others are in D2.   Money is the reason and UND has the same costs or more because of travel. 

One of the MVFC schools may get an FBS invite of some kind someday but they aren’t going to change the entire landscape of college athletics to make it happen.  

I stand by my original claim:  UND is more likely to play non scholarship football or move back to D2 than move to the FBS.

 

 

[darell1976]

4 hours ago, Milo said:

Lol. OK. Except the new NCHC was started after the big ten got sick of the Augies in their league. They separated themselves from the D2s.   I guess they didn’t consider those endowment numbers that places UND firmly in the lower echelons with Idaho  After Denver which has 711 million, 3 times UNDs size,  there wasn’t one hockey school except UND.  Denver has no football.

None of the schools listed with endowments the size of UNDs has a full slate of D1 sports including hockey, FBS football and basketball.  None of the schools are FBS.   Idaho gave it run And failed.  Idaho doesn’t have hockey.

When it comes to football obviously “The AC” is by far the best on that list.  They don’t have to fund hockey which makes any FBS invite they may receive easier to contemplate but still out of reach today. 

Before moving into the FCS WAC or inviting yourselves into the MAC seriously consider the OOC schedule.  Who is going to come to the Alerus?  How much can you pay them?   Besides all the schools in the “new” conferences are FCS now.  Why not just play those same schools in this division?  The idea they are going to form some type of FBS conference begs the question why?  

After 10 years and the big win a narrow victory over lowly Wyoming a few years ago and on the wrong end of blowouts galore from all levels what are the realistic chances of success for UND in the FBS?  How successful have they been to date?  

There aren’t enough resources and UND isn’t compelling enough now to recruit successfully and hire top notch coaches that can be successful in the FCS.

None of this FBS talk makes much sense or has a realistic purpose especially considering the weakness of the UND business model.  It couldn’t handle the costs of the Big Sky. 

A lot of schools UNDs  budget size that have hockey don’t have football at all.  Most of the others are in D2.   Money is the reason and UND has the same costs or more because of travel. 

One of the MVFC schools may get an FBS invite of some kind someday but they aren’t going to change the entire landscape of college athletics to make it happen.  

I stand by my original claim:  UND is more likely to play non scholarship football or move back to D2 than move to the FBS.

 

 

Do you compare our FBS win to say that of SDSU or USD who have just one FBS win?  Also who says we are going to the FBS, no one on this board has said we are going to FBS any time soon except SiouxVolley. We are far from that. If you want to talk about your team going to the FBS take it to Bisonville. Also if you think we are going to the PFL or the NSIC you had one too many bad Bison burgers.

[darell1976]

14 hours ago, fightingsioux4life said:

A crazed Bison fan whom I have debated on many different forums over the years. Definitely one of my toughest opponents.

He was big into the Dakota 3 talk, which like him has disappeared. 

[Milo]

18 hours ago, darell1976 said:

Do you compare our FBS win to say that of SDSU or USD who have just one FBS win?  Also who says we are going to the FBS, no one on this board has said we are going to FBS any time soon except SiouxVolley. We are far from that. If you want to talk about your team going to the FBS take it to Bisonville. Also if you think we are going to the PFL or the NSIC you had one too many bad Bison burgers.

No. Their wins were in the Big 10.  A bigger deal than Wyo for sure even though it was the Gophers.  The Dakota Big 3, as you call them, all beat the Gophers. The Bison beat them several times. Of course NDSUs FBS win streak is unparalleled in FCS history  Their wins are impressive indeed.

Those of you that agree UND is not going FBS have a good grasp of reality. They arent and they won’t.  As I said it’s more likely to go non scholarship or drop the sport.  As Omaha has found out the hockey and BB teams get better when football is dropped. 

[BarnWinterSportsEngelstad]

48 minutes ago, Milo said:

No. Their wins were in the Big 10.  A bigger deal than Wyo for sure even though it was the Gophers.  The Dakota Big 3, as you call them, all beat the Gophers. The Bison beat them several times. Of course NDSUs FBS win streak is unparalleled in FCS history  Their wins are impressive indeed.

Those of you that agree UND is not going FBS have a good grasp of reality. They arent and they won’t.  As I said it’s more likely to go non scholarship or drop the sport.  As Omaha has found out the hockey and BB teams get better when football is dropped. 

You're continually repeating yourself, are you on Ostarine?

[southpaw]

2 hours ago, Milo said:

No. Their wins were in the Big 10.  A bigger deal than Wyo for sure even though it was the Gophers.  The Dakota Big 3, as you call them, all beat the Gophers. The Bison beat them several times. Of course NDSUs FBS win streak is unparalleled in FCS history  Their wins are impressive indeed.

So what you're saying is that getting a win over Wyoming is nothing special because it is easy to do? 

Tell me, how has NDSU fared against the Cowboys?

[darell1976]

4 hours ago, Milo said:

No. Their wins were in the Big 10.  A bigger deal than Wyo for sure even though it was the Gophers.  The Dakota Big 3, as you call them, all beat the Gophers. The Bison beat them several times. Of course NDSUs FBS win streak is unparalleled in FCS history  Their wins are impressive indeed.

Those of you that agree UND is not going FBS have a good grasp of reality. They arent and they won’t.  As I said it’s more likely to go non scholarship or drop the sport.  As Omaha has found out the hockey and BB teams get better when football is dropped. 

Wrong!! SDSU never beat a Big 10 team, their lone FBS win was in 2015 vs Kansas. And before you pump up Kansas, they finished 2015 0-12. 

[darell1976]

2 hours ago, southpaw said:

So what you're saying is that getting a win over Wyoming is nothing special because it is easy to do? 

Tell me, how has NDSU fared against the Cowboys?

Cowboys finished 4-8 just in case he pumps his chest about playing a tough MWC team, kind of like how they played a tough DII Ferris State team while being DI.

[The Sicatoka]

On 2/6/2019 at 8:45 AM, jdub27 said:

Here are some actual numbers instead of rambling that makes no sense.

MVFC "Revenues"
UND - $28.2 million
ISU - $27.9 million
NDSU - $27.3 million
MSU - $26.4 million
UND w/o MIH - $23.0 million
SIU - $22.1 million
SDSU - $22.1 million
UNI - $19.5 million
USD - $19.3 million
ISU - $16.1 million
YSU - $15.4 million
WIU - $11.9 million

While those numbers don't actually tell anywhere near a full story, the ballpark of what men's hockey directly adds to it is $5.2 million. UND also just improved the expense side of their equation by about $3 million, which will start reflecting on the next report that is released. 

Now those are revenues, not expenses, but they server as a pretty good proxy for expenses (outlays) as we've seen in most reports. 

Now remember, the $23M for UND is for ... 15 sports. (Hockey is not in there.) 

UND, not counting hockey, spends more on athletics than all but 3 of the MVFC.

And it spends more than SDSU which Milo has hinted as able to play FBS. 

[The Sicatoka]

Here's an interesting list from 2016-17. 

Sort by Conference. Then look at the MAC and the Sun Belt, and then look at the Big Sky* and Summit and Missouri Valley (as proxies for MVFC). 

Right there is the missing tier of football. 

 

*UND was still in the Sky at this point. 

[nodak651]

26 minutes ago, The Sicatoka said:

Here's an interesting list from 2016-17. 

Sort by Conference. Then look at the MAC and the Sun Belt, and then look at the Big Sky* and Summit (proxy for MVFC). 

Right there is the missing tier of football. 

 

*UND was still in the Sky at this point. 

UND, SDSU, and NDSU all also have higher ticket sales than every team in the MAC and Sun Belt.  

Still think those conferences should be FCS, rather than us move up to FBS, but a new level/division is badly needed.

[The Sicatoka]

What's an FBS with DI hockey budget look like?

Well, simple reality says throw out the schools from the P5 conferences for comparisons; it's not even the same realm. So, good bye Arizona State, BC, the B1Gs. And for that matter, throw out the service academies (Army, Air Force). 

So what's left? UConn, UMass, and three MACs (Miami, WMU, Bowling Green). Given the stature of the UConn and UMass BB programs and how they spend on those ... 

The best comparisons are the three MACs. Today UND trails WMU and Miami but leads Bowling Green as far as expenditures. (I'm not drawing conclusions, just pointing out the data.) 

The south has its G5 FBS in the Sun Belt. The midwest has its in the MAC. 

[SIOUXFAN97]

26 minutes ago, The Sicatoka said:

What's an FBS with DI hockey budget look like?

Well, simple reality says throw out the schools from the P5 conferences for comparisons; it's not even the same realm. So, good bye Arizona State, BC, the B1Gs. And for that matter, throw out the service academies (Army, Air Force). 

So what's left? UConn, UMass, and three MACs (Miami, WMU, Bowling Green). Given the stature of the UConn and UMass BB programs and how they spend on those ... 

The best comparisons are the three MACs. Today UND trails WMU and Miami but leads Bowling Green as far as expenditures. (I'm not drawing conclusions, just pointing out the data.) 

The south has its G5 FBS in the Sun Belt. The midwest has its in the MAC. 

The West/Midwest needs one more FBS conference......BBWF....Bring Back WAC Football