COMMITTED UND Recruits

[brianvf]

On 3/31/2018 at 3:16 PM, scpa0305 said:

I can’t seem to find a scouting report on his camp.  I always had heard he should make the team. 

http://www.hockeyjournal.com/nehockeyjournal/march_2018/MobilePagedArticle.action?articleId=1370337&app=false#articleId1370337

[AJS]

6 hours ago, brianvf said:

http://www.hockeyjournal.com/nehockeyjournal/march_2018/MobilePagedArticle.action?articleId=1370337&app=false#articleId1370337

One mans opinion, but it's weird that he'd rank Kunz that high and he wouldn't get an invite (out of camp).

I didn't have much luck trying to look up this information, but does anyone know (1) What percentage of offers get turned down (2) How long does it usually take to announce the roster.

I realize it's a huge decision, but you would think the players / parents would have some sort of idea going into the camp if they'd accept if offered at the end of it.

 

[scpa0305]

1 hour ago, AJS said:

One mans opinion, but it's weird that he'd rank Kunz that high and he wouldn't get an invite (out of camp).

I didn't have much luck trying to look up this information, but does anyone know (1) What percentage of offers get turned down (2) How long does it usually take to announce the roster.

I realize it's a huge decision, but you would think the players / parents would have some sort of idea going into the camp if they'd accept if offered at the end of it.

 

Kunz has a nice blend of skill and size.  Cox is a decent scout.  He’s probably focusing on future potential.  He noted that Kunz needs to work on skating and his pace of play.  Skating makes sense as at this camp most of the other kids will be elite skaters.  Pace of play is tougher on big kids that play at a lower level of competition.  The elite league should help him this coming year.  Red river and central beat up on on almost every team they play. In most cases Kunz hasn’t had to go full tilt or learn a great d game.  That will come as he moves up.

i still think he’ll get an invite if one of those MN kids decline.  They’re probably the most likely to do so.

[tnt]

17 minutes ago, scpa0305 said:

Kunz has a nice blend of skill and size.  Cox is a decent scout.  He’s probably focusing on future potential.  He noted that Kunz needs to work on skating and his pace of play.  Skating makes sense as at this camp most of the other kids will be elite skaters.  Pace of play is tougher on big kids that play at a lower level of competition.  The elite league should help him this coming year.  Red river and central beat up on on almost every team they play. In most cars Kunz hasn’t had to go full tilt or learn a great d game.  That will come as he moves up.

i still think he’ll get an invite if one of those MN kids decline.  They’re probably the most likely to do so.

Another year in the Elite league should help, but if he could work with someone to get that extra step in his skating that will put him over the top.  

[iramurphy]

On ‎3‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 4:32 PM, SiouxScore said:

Minnesota kids decline a lot more than anybody else and some have even started to just straight up decline the camp invitation. Especially if it is a metro kid there is no reason for them to have to go to the development program. They get to play strong competition with guys they have grown up with in full arenas and a chance to play in the state tournament that a lot of Minnesota kids dream about from the time they are young. It isn't a crazy reason at all to decline the development program.

Can anyone think of a kid who declined to play either in on the NTDP, the fall Elite league or Juniors before finishing high school who should have played in college but didn't make it?  I think the NTDP is an opportunity that I would consider allowing my kid to leave home before finishing HS in order to take advantage of those opportunities.  I would not support my kid leaving early to play juniors.  If he is good enough to play junior while still in HS he can play juniors after HS.  I believe the fall Elite league should be disbanded.  Too many kids miss HS soccer, FB or other HS sports and those kids typically are going to get to play juniors or college hockey regardless of the Elite league.  Does anyone one have an example.  The thinking is these kids need this to play against better competition.  If they are good enough does it really benefit them to leave HS early?  Not sure this conversation should be here, but it fits this discussion.  I would like to see Kunz play for his HS team then go to Juniors.  The NTDP is a different opportunity than Juniors or the Elite league.  Thoughts?

[petey23]

30 minutes ago, iramurphy said:

Can anyone think of a kid who declined to play either in on the NTDP, the fall Elite league or Juniors before finishing high school who should have played in college but didn't make it?  I think the NTDP is an opportunity that I would consider allowing my kid to leave home before finishing HS in order to take advantage of those opportunities.  I would not support my kid leaving early to play juniors.  If he is good enough to play junior while still in HS he can play juniors after HS.  I believe the fall Elite league should be disbanded.  Too many kids miss HS soccer, FB or other HS sports and those kids typically are going to get to play juniors or college hockey regardless of the Elite league.  Does anyone one have an example.  The thinking is these kids need this to play against better competition.  If they are good enough does it really benefit them to leave HS early?  Not sure this conversation should be here, but it fits this discussion.  I would like to see Kunz play for his HS team then go to Juniors.  The NTDP is a different opportunity than Juniors or the Elite league.  Thoughts?

Ira, I am not sure how many of the kids in the Elite league are competing in Fall Sports but part of the reason(in addition to extra games to offset leaving for the USHL) for the set-up and format of the league was to allow kids to be able to play fall sports(football on Friday nights) and then play 2-3 games of hockey on Saturday and Sunday.

[scpa0305]

36 minutes ago, iramurphy said:

Can anyone think of a kid who declined to play either in on the NTDP, the fall Elite league or Juniors before finishing high school who should have played in college but didn't make it?  I think the NTDP is an opportunity that I would consider allowing my kid to leave home before finishing HS in order to take advantage of those opportunities.  I would not support my kid leaving early to play juniors.  If he is good enough to play junior while still in HS he can play juniors after HS.  I believe the fall Elite league should be disbanded.  Too many kids miss HS soccer, FB or other HS sports and those kids typically are going to get to play juniors or college hockey regardless of the Elite league.  Does anyone one have an example.  The thinking is these kids need this to play against better competition.  If they are good enough does it really benefit them to leave HS early?  Not sure this conversation should be here, but it fits this discussion.  I would like to see Kunz play for his HS team then go to Juniors.  The NTDP is a different opportunity than Juniors or the Elite league.  Thoughts?

If they are good enough to play juniors now, I would think long and hard about sending them.  It would depend on your kid (maturity, what type of player they are, etc).  Players need to be pushed; in some cases players may develop bad habits by playing against inferior competition.  In other cases they may continue to gain confidence by playing against inferior competition. Again, it really depends on the kid.  It also could depend on where you live.  If you’re in the lake conference in MN you may be able to keep them around and they’ll still be pushed.  If your player plays against above avg competion only 4-5 times an entire season I may be inclined to moving them somewhere where they’ll continue to develop.

Ryder Donavan is one who I thought should have gone to juniors next year.  But he isn’t for some reason. He’ll absolutely dominate against inferior competition next year.  Kid sees the ice so well.  But then again there are always those like Middelstadt that are so supremely talented that it doesn’t matter where they play.  Those are the outliers though.

[cberkas]

1 hour ago, iramurphy said:

Can anyone think of a kid who declined to play either in on the NTDP, the fall Elite league or Juniors before finishing high school who should have played in college but didn't make it?  I think the NTDP is an opportunity that I would consider allowing my kid to leave home before finishing HS in order to take advantage of those opportunities.  I would not support my kid leaving early to play juniors.  If he is good enough to play junior while still in HS he can play juniors after HS.  I believe the fall Elite league should be disbanded.  Too many kids miss HS soccer, FB or other HS sports and those kids typically are going to get to play juniors or college hockey regardless of the Elite league.  Does anyone one have an example.  The thinking is these kids need this to play against better competition.  If they are good enough does it really benefit them to leave HS early?  Not sure this conversation should be here, but it fits this discussion.  I would like to see Kunz play for his HS team then go to Juniors.  The NTDP is a different opportunity than Juniors or the Elite league.  Thoughts?

I’ve seen players, when Cole was in charge of the NTDP, not play for the U18 team after playing for the U17 team.

[franchise]

1 hour ago, scpa0305 said:

Ryder Donavan is one who I thought should have gone to juniors next year.  But he isn’t for some reason. He’ll absolutely dominate against inferior competition next year.  Kid sees the ice so well.  But then again there are always those like Middelstadt that are so supremely talented that it doesn’t matter where they play.  Those are the outliers though.

Unfinished business.

[iramurphy]

26 minutes ago, petey23 said:

Ira, I am not sure how many of the kids in the Elite league are competing in Fall Sports but part of the reason(in addition to extra games to offset leaving for the USHL) for the set-up and format of the league was to allow kids to be able to play fall sports(football on Friday nights) and then play 2-3 games of hockey on Saturday and Sunday.

 You are correct about the Elite league schedule.  I think it was part of the response when Glen Sonmor and Lou Nanne were pissed cuz the Gophers had gone too long without winning a National Championship  They lobbied the MSHSL to add more games. They were convinced that the Boston schools and other eastern schools were having their successful run cuz many kids out east were playing 60 games per year and our HS kids were playing 18. The tough thing for me is:  what is best for the young athlete?  Guys like Dr. Mike Stuart, Chairman of Sports Med at Mayo (who had 3 sons play in the NHL), Dr. James Andrews one of the most respected Sports Medicine orthopedic surgeons in the world and many others   are trying to get kids and their parents to stop playing only one sport and also to stop playing one sport year round without taking breaks because every study shows these kids have more injuries than kids who are multi sport athletes. I do not believe these kids are any more likely to play college hockey because they play Juniors before they finish high school nor do I see any real benefit for the kids to play in the Elite league in the fall.  These physicians and others  are also trying to eliminate checking from Bantam level hockey,  which I think should have been done years ago when they eliminated checking in Pee Wee hockey.  We might need some beer and Pizza to continue this but I applaud all kids who stay in high school to play with their teammates.  They can play summer select team hockey to play against "better competition" but I don't  believe they need to play in the Elite league or Juniors before high school graduation to get a scholarship to play college hockey. Playing on the NTDP team has advantages to kids with that the Elite League and Juniors don't have so I would understand kids who take advantage of that opportunity. Anyway food for thought.

[scpa0305]

38 minutes ago, franchise said:

Unfinished business.

No I get it.  Biasedly, I’m hoping he pulls a Blake McLaughlin.

[scpa0305]

33 minutes ago, iramurphy said:

 You are correct about the Elite league schedule.  I think it was part of the response when Glen Sonmor and Lou Nanne were pissed cuz the Gophers had gone too long without winning a National Championship  They lobbied the MSHSL to add more games. They were convinced that the Boston schools and other eastern schools were having their successful run cuz many kids out east were playing 60 games per year and our HS kids were playing 18. The tough thing for me is:  what is best for the young athlete?  Guys like Dr. Mike Stuart, Chairman of Sports Med at Mayo (who had 3 sons play in the NHL), Dr. James Andrews one of the most respected Sports Medicine orthopedic surgeons in the world and many others   are trying to get kids and their parents to stop playing only one sport and also to stop playing one sport year round without taking breaks because every study shows these kids have more injuries than kids who are multi sport athletes. I do not believe these kids are any more likely to play college hockey because they play Juniors before they finish high school nor do I see any real benefit for the kids to play in the Elite league in the fall.  These physicians and others  are also trying to eliminate checking from Bantam level hockey,  which I think should have been done years ago when they eliminated checking in Pee Wee hockey.  We might need some beer and Pizza to continue this but I applaud all kids who stay in high school to play with their teammates.  They can play summer select team hockey to play against "better competition" but I don't  believe they need to play in the Elite league or Juniors before high school graduation to get a scholarship to play college hockey. Playing on the NTDP team has advantages to kids with that the Elite League and Juniors don't have so I would understand kids who take advantage of that opportunity. Anyway food for thought.

NTDP is juniors....basically.  So I guess I’m confused.  When school becomes too easy they move kids up, or developed advanced classes.  That’s what they have done with sports. Push kids and they become better.

[petey23]

1 hour ago, iramurphy said:

 You are correct about the Elite league schedule.  I think it was part of the response when Glen Sonmor and Lou Nanne were pissed cuz the Gophers had gone too long without winning a National Championship  They lobbied the MSHSL to add more games. They were convinced that the Boston schools and other eastern schools were having their successful run cuz many kids out east were playing 60 games per year and our HS kids were playing 18. The tough thing for me is:  what is best for the young athlete?  Guys like Dr. Mike Stuart, Chairman of Sports Med at Mayo (who had 3 sons play in the NHL), Dr. James Andrews one of the most respected Sports Medicine orthopedic surgeons in the world and many others   are trying to get kids and their parents to stop playing only one sport and also to stop playing one sport year round without taking breaks because every study shows these kids have more injuries than kids who are multi sport athletes. I do not believe these kids are any more likely to play college hockey because they play Juniors before they finish high school nor do I see any real benefit for the kids to play in the Elite league in the fall.  These physicians and others  are also trying to eliminate checking from Bantam level hockey,  which I think should have been done years ago when they eliminated checking in Pee Wee hockey.  We might need some beer and Pizza to continue this but I applaud all kids who stay in high school to play with their teammates.  They can play summer select team hockey to play against "better competition" but I don't  believe they need to play in the Elite league or Juniors before high school graduation to get a scholarship to play college hockey. Playing on the NTDP team has advantages to kids with that the Elite League and Juniors don't have so I would understand kids who take advantage of that opportunity. Anyway food for thought.

I agree for the most part.

If you are good enough in todays age with the technology available...they will find you.

I do think it is different for a kid from North Dakota or almost any other state other than Minnesota though...especially as it relates to the National Development Team. Bad habits can drift into your game when you are not being challenged so even a kid playing in a AAA midget program who is head and shoulders above his teammates and competition but not elite enough for the USNDT has to weigh the options of playing in the USHL or NAHL.

[AlphaMikeFoxtrot]

It's too bad MN doesn't have a USHL team in Rochester or a suburb (WI included). The problem of whether or not they are mature enough to leave home is somewhat nullified.  Waterloo/Sioux Falls/Fargo aren't close enough to help with homesickness.

[SiouxScore]

5 hours ago, iramurphy said:

Can anyone think of a kid who declined to play either in on the NTDP, the fall Elite league or Juniors before finishing high school who should have played in college but didn't make it?  I think the NTDP is an opportunity that I would consider allowing my kid to leave home before finishing HS in order to take advantage of those opportunities.  I would not support my kid leaving early to play juniors.  If he is good enough to play junior while still in HS he can play juniors after HS.  I believe the fall Elite league should be disbanded.  Too many kids miss HS soccer, FB or other HS sports and those kids typically are going to get to play juniors or college hockey regardless of the Elite league.  Does anyone one have an example.  The thinking is these kids need this to play against better competition.  If they are good enough does it really benefit them to leave HS early?  Not sure this conversation should be here, but it fits this discussion.  I would like to see Kunz play for his HS team then go to Juniors.  The NTDP is a different opportunity than Juniors or the Elite league.  Thoughts?

I like the Elite League I feel like it has helped MN high school hockey keep some high end talent that previously would have went to juniors. Also it is flexible enough to allow guys to continue to be multi-sport athletes if they choose. I know a number of guys have played a football game Friday night and played in the elite league Saturday and Sunday even kids that have to travel 3-4 hours each week do it. I also really like the before and after option for Juniors. Still get the increased number of games but still get to represent your community and play high school hockey with your buddies I believe Ryder Donovan will do this next season. 

If they are good enough does it really benefit them to leave HS early? Each case is different. Depends on the kids maturity level and other things like that. Biggest thing to me is the kid being pushed to be a better player or can they coast at the same level they've been playing at and still continue to dominate. I think a guy like Kunz would benefit from going to JRs because Red River isn't pushed a whole lot. It would really benefit them to try to schedule some metro MN teams and test themselves more outside of ND. A guy like Donovan probably wouldn't benefit as much just because he is pushed more with the competition that Duluth East faces for the most part.

[iramurphy]

3 minutes ago, SiouxScore said:

I like the Elite League I feel like it has helped MN high school hockey keep some high end talent that previously would have went to juniors. Also it is flexible enough to allow guys to continue to be multi-sport athletes if they choose. I know a number of guys have played a football game Friday night and played in the elite league Saturday and Sunday even kids that have to travel 3-4 hours each week do it. I also really like the before and after option for Juniors. Still get the increased number of games but still get to represent your community and play high school hockey with your buddies I believe Ryder Donovan will do this next season. 

If they are good enough does it really benefit them to leave HS early? Each case is different. Depends on the kids maturity level and other things like that. Biggest thing to me is the kid being pushed to be a better player or can they coast at the same level they've been playing at and still continue to dominate. I think a guy like Kunz would benefit from going to JRs because Red River isn't pushed a whole lot. It would really benefit them to try to schedule some metro MN teams and test themselves more outside of ND. A guy like Donovan probably wouldn't benefit as much just because he is pushed more with the competition that Duluth East faces for the most part.

You make some good points concerning the Elite league at least allowing kids to play their fall sport.  I'm not sure it's a good idea to play HS FB or soccer Friday night then play 2 or 3 hockey games the next 2 days.  We had trouble keeping track of one of our HS FB player's concussions when he was playing the Elite league. My question is:  are there kids who don't get to play college hockey because they didn't leave  HS early?  I realize the decision is up to the kid and the parents but I contend the kids would end up playing juniors after HS and eventually play college hockey anyway.  The kids may play for a coach who doesn't get the best out of them at whatever level they play.  At RR or Central, the Fargo schools, Bismarck schools, and many of the Minnesota schools they have the facilities and opportunity to continue to better themselves without having to leave HS.  I know the game experience and quality of competition is a factor, but I am not convinced it is that important to the kid.  Can't they continue to develop at home and play in the Spring hockey select teams for a couple of months and another couple of months on a select team in the summer?  They will need to adjust to the speed of the game in Juniors but if they continue to work on their fundamental skills and spend the necessary time in the weight room/ speed strength training, is it even necessary or beneficial to leave HS?   By the time the kid gets to college he should have been able to adjust to the bigger, faster, stronger competition at juniors.  Ok, I don't want to screw the dead horse.  Just some ramblings instead of going to St. Paul for the Frozen Four.  Good discussion.

 

[scpa0305]

1 hour ago, SiouxScore said:

I like the Elite League I feel like it has helped MN high school hockey keep some high end talent that previously would have went to juniors. Also it is flexible enough to allow guys to continue to be multi-sport athletes if they choose. I know a number of guys have played a football game Friday night and played in the elite league Saturday and Sunday even kids that have to travel 3-4 hours each week do it. I also really like the before and after option for Juniors. Still get the increased number of games but still get to represent your community and play high school hockey with your buddies I believe Ryder Donovan will do this next season. 

If they are good enough does it really benefit them to leave HS early? Each case is different. Depends on the kids maturity level and other things like that. Biggest thing to me is the kid being pushed to be a better player or can they coast at the same level they've been playing at and still continue to dominate. I think a guy like Kunz would benefit from going to JRs because Red River isn't pushed a whole lot. It would really benefit them to try to schedule some metro MN teams and test themselves more outside of ND. A guy like Donovan probably wouldn't benefit as much just because he is pushed more with the competition that Duluth East faces for the most part.

Good post, definitely depends on the situation/type of player.  Spot on with Kunz however playing another year in GF won’t necessarily hurt him all that much. He’s an odd one, you almost have to treat him as a soph due to his birthdate.

One other thing I would point out is when the player/team plan to have the player come to college. The days of even playing AA MN hockey and going to college the next year are almost unheard (middelstadt is the outlier these days).  The gap between college hockey and high school is  huge. In almost cases a player needs to play juniors prior to playing high end college hockey.  I slightly disagree on the Donovan angle, I think a kid like that (who’s already played 4 years of high school hockey) should test himself at the next level.  Duluth does play a decent schedule but definitely not a lake conference schedule. Biasedly, I want him to be more ready come his freshmen year.  The kid has to want to do it however, can’t force those types of decisions.

[siouxforcefans]

15 hours ago, iramurphy said:

You make some good points concerning the Elite league at least allowing kids to play their fall sport.  I'm not sure it's a good idea to play HS FB or soccer Friday night then play 2 or 3 hockey games the next 2 days.  We had trouble keeping track of one of our HS FB player's concussions when he was playing the Elite league. My question is:  are there kids who don't get to play college hockey because they didn't leave  HS early?  I realize the decision is up to the kid and the parents but I contend the kids would end up playing juniors after HS and eventually play college hockey anyway.  The kids may play for a coach who doesn't get the best out of them at whatever level they play.  At RR or Central, the Fargo schools, Bismarck schools, and many of the Minnesota schools they have the facilities and opportunity to continue to better themselves without having to leave HS.  I know the game experience and quality of competition is a factor, but I am not convinced it is that important to the kid.  Can't they continue to develop at home and play in the Spring hockey select teams for a couple of months and another couple of months on a select team in the summer?  They will need to adjust to the speed of the game in Juniors but if they continue to work on their fundamental skills and spend the necessary time in the weight room/ speed strength training, is it even necessary or beneficial to leave HS?   By the time the kid gets to college he should have been able to adjust to the bigger, faster, stronger competition at juniors.  Ok, I don't want to screw the dead horse.  Just some ramblings instead of going to St. Paul for the Frozen Four.  Good discussion.

 

Only replying to the bolded point; For a lot of these kids, they go to juniors to try to get into a "better" school.  Cruising through HS in rural Michigan might get you a look from Lake Superior State, but how can you show that you've got the talent to get a look from UND or BC (or whoever you want to pick as the big names), if you don't get on the ice and show it against better competition?  If you're trying to get into college before turning 20, you might need to play that senior season in juniors to get the offer you want from the school you want. 

Following the Fargo Force closely for the last decade, I can't tell you how many players have de-committed from a school when they were able to secure an offer from a bigger name.  Until they sign their letter, they have options. 

[UNDBB75]

A classic example is the Potulny boys.  Both played football at RR and hockey. Grant (I believe) played his whole high school career then 2 years of juniors and Ryan left after his sophomore year.  I don't know the dynamics behind it.  Maybe the ultimate goal was so they could play together in college. Either way both made it to a major program. 

[gfhockey]

Seems like all the gfc kids go to und and have limited success and gfrr kids go elsewhere and usually over achieve what they were expected to do. 

[scpa0305]

37 minutes ago, UNDBB75 said:

A classic example is the Potulny boys.  Both played football at RR and hockey. Grant (I believe) played his whole high school career then 2 years of juniors and Ryan left after his sophomore year.  I don't know the dynamics behind it.  Maybe the ultimate goal was so they could play together in college. Either way both made it to a major program. 

No it wasn’t so they could play together at all, that happened later.  Grant was not nearly as good as Ryan.  Grant worked his way up to MN (even when Blais turned him down).  Ryan was sought after from the time he was 13.

[siouxfan512]

11 minutes ago, scpa0305 said:

No it wasn’t so they could play together at all, that happened later.  Grant was not nearly as good as Ryan.  Grant worked his way up to MN (even when Blais turned him down).  Ryan was sought after from the time he was 13.

Hindsight is 20/20, but I would have gladly had them both. Grant certainly turned out to be nice player, and it never hurts to have alumni that like to coach.

[geaux_sioux]

36 minutes ago, gfhockey said:

Seems like all the gfc kids go to und and have limited success and gfrr kids go elsewhere and usually over achieve what they were expected to do. 

Yea, like LaDue.

[franchise]

21 hours ago, scpa0305 said:

No I get it.  Biasedly, I’m hoping he pulls a Blake McLaughlin.

I wouldn't mind

[scpa0305]

34 minutes ago, siouxfan512 said:

Hindsight is 20/20, but I would have gladly had them both. Grant certainly turned out to be nice player, and it never hurts to have alumni that like to coach.

Agreed.  Irmen too. When Blais turned down Grant he lost Ryan and Danny too.