DU/MSUM for the title

[Dustin]

4 hours ago, InHeavenThereIsNoBeer said:

Reposting from a March 2nd post I made this year with adjustments for DU's 2022 title.

I've added in quotations how many seasons since that program's most recent title.

	Titles	Years Eligible	Avg Years Between Titles
Denver(0)	9	71	7.9
Michigan(24)	9	74	8.2
Nodak(6)	8	73	9.2
Wisco(16)	6	57	9.5
Gophers(19)	5	74	14.8
BC(10)	5	7458	14.8
UMD(2)	3	58	19.3

 

This is solely focusing on national titles. You add in league titles and the picture gets even more clear we aren't watching average hockey at The Ralph every Friday and Saturday night.  Anyone who says otherwise is trying to stir something up or just needs more attention.

I went even more in depth and took into account the times that teams played in the championship game, but ultimately lost (NCAA runner-up):

Denver - 12 championship games (9 titles), avg=5.9 years between championship game appearances, 31 year title game gap, 35 year title gap

Michigan - 12 championship games (9 titles), avg=6.2 years between championship game appearances, 19 year title game gap, 32 year title gap

North Dakota - 13 championship games (8 titles), avg=5.6 years between championship game appearances, 11 year title game gap, 17 year title gap

Wisconsin - 9 championship games (6 titles), avg=6.3 years between championship game appearances, 14 year title game gap, 17 year title gap (current streak)

Minnesota - 13 championship games (5 titles), avg=6.2 years between championship game appearances, 13 year title game gap, 23 year title gap

Boston College - 10 championship games (5 titles), avg=7.4 years between championship game appearances, 23 year title game gap, 52 year title gap

UMD - Doesn't count in my opinion, as they are not one of the elite programs throughout the history of the NCAA tournament, but a program not mentioned above...

Boston University - 11 championship games (5 titles), avg=6.7 years between championship game appearances, 17 year title game gap, 17 year title gap

 

I guess where I'm going with all this, North Dakota has been the most consistent college hockey program throughout the history of the NCAA tournament.  Tied for most championship games played (13 appearances).  Shortest average time between title game appearances (5.6 years).  Shortest gap in title game appearances (11 years).  Tied for shortest title gap (17 years).  Not a decade has gone by without UND playing in a championship game.  Only one decade resulted in no championships (1970s).  No other program can boast that level of consistency.

[Fighting Sioux 23]

5 minutes ago, Dustin said:

I went even more in depth and took into account the times that teams played in the championship game, but ultimately lost (NCAA runner-up):

Denver - 12 championship games (9 titles), avg=5.9 years between championship game appearances, 31 year title game gap, 35 year title gap

Michigan - 12 championship games (9 titles), avg=6.2 years between championship game appearances, 19 year title game gap, 32 year title gap

North Dakota - 13 championship games (8 titles), avg=5.6 years between championship game appearances, 11 year title game gap, 17 year title gap

Wisconsin - 9 championship games (6 titles), avg=6.3 years between championship game appearances, 14 year title game gap, 17 year title gap (current streak)

Minnesota - 13 championship games (5 titles), avg=6.2 years between championship game appearances, 13 year title game gap, 23 year title gap

Boston College - 10 championship games (5 titles), avg=7.4 years between championship game appearances, 23 year title game gap, 52 year title gap

UMD - Doesn't count in my opinion, as they are not one of the elite programs throughout the history of the NCAA tournament, but a program not mentioned above...

Boston University - 11 championship games (5 titles), avg=6.7 years between championship game appearances, 17 year title game gap, 17 year title gap

 

I guess where I'm going with all this, North Dakota has been the most consistent college hockey program throughout the history of the NCAA tournament.  Tied for most championship games played (13 appearances).  Shortest average time between title game appearances (5.6 years).  Shortest gap in title game appearances (11 years).  Tied for shortest title gap (17 years).  Not a decade has gone by without UND playing in a championship game.  Only one decade resulted in no championships (1970s).  No other program can boast that level of consistency.

Nice work, although I'm pretty sure Minnesota only has 12 championship game appearances.  

[Dustin]

2 minutes ago, Fighting Sioux 23 said:

Nice work, although I'm pretty sure Minnesota only has 12 championship game appearances.  

I see you are correct. I will update accordingly.

[Dustin]

5 minutes ago, Dustin said:

I see you are correct. I will update accordingly.

Updated:

Denver - 12 championship games (9 titles), avg=5.9 years between championship game appearances, 31 year title game gap, 35 year title gap

Michigan - 12 championship games (9 titles), avg=6.2 years between championship game appearances, 19 year title game gap, 32 year title gap

North Dakota - 13 championship games (8 titles), avg=5.6 years between championship game appearances, 11 year title game gap, 17 year title gap

Wisconsin - 9 championship games (6 titles), avg=6.3 years between championship game appearances, 14 year title game gap, 17 year title gap (current streak)

Minnesota - 12 championship games (5 titles), avg=6.2 years between championship game appearances, 13 year title game gap, 23 year title gap

Boston College - 10 championship games (5 titles), avg=7.4 years between championship game appearances, 23 year title game gap, 52 year title gap

UMD - Doesn't count in my opinion, as they are not one of the elite programs throughout the history of the NCAA tournament, but a program not mentioned above...

Boston University - 11 championship games (5 titles), avg=6.7 years between championship game appearances, 17 year title game gap, 17 year title gap

 

I guess where I'm going with all this, North Dakota has been the most consistent college hockey program throughout the history of the NCAA tournament.  Most championship games played (13 appearances).  Shortest average time between title game appearances (5.6 years).  Shortest gap between title game appearances (11 years).  Tied for shortest title gap (17 years).  Not a decade has gone by without UND playing in a championship game.  Only one decade resulted in no championships (1970s).  No other program can boast that level of consistency.

[Dustin]

If I were to rate the elite college hockey programs, it would go as follows:

1. North Dakota (based on all the info presented earlier, plus numerous regular season and post-season conference championships)

2. Minnesota (bests #3 Wisconsin based on their conference resume, something that Wisconsin lacks, and more title game appearances)

3. Wisconsin (not nearly as streaky as #2 Minnesota with the natties, but trails in conference hardware and title game appearances)

4. Denver (very streaky with the natties with a long gap, but is tied for the most natties, and has decent conference hardware)

5. Boston University (very comparable to #6 BC, but has never gone through a super long drought)

6. Boston College (very comparable to #5 BU, but with a very super long title drought)

7. Michigan (really only one era of dominance, and that was when only a few teams even made the NCAA tournament.  Very long title droughts, longest is 32 years, current is 25 years.  The only reason they're even in the elite club is their (now tied) record number of championships)

I'd be curious to know how your list differs, if it does...

[Shawn-O]

"Comparison is the thief of joy" -- Theodore Roosevelt   

[bale31]

So, a couple of interesting stories told last night at the MSU welcome home event. FIrst one from the AD. He told a story about the Denver AD berating him for 10 minutes in front of all their colleagues during the conference split about how MSU will never compete for national titles because they didn't have the institutional committment to compete. That has definitely stuck with the administration and they are very bitter about it. 

Secondly, Hastings mentioned that after the team got up the escalator on the red carpet this last weekend, the guy from the NCAA said they had not had that kind of atmosphere that MSU had during that arrival. 

I have to admit, the atmosphere in Boston was amazing. It was crazy to walk around the city and have people stop us as we were wearing out MSU gear just to tell us they were cheering for us (admittedly, that may have had to do with who the other 3 teams were though too). 

[InHeavenThereIsNoBeer]

3 hours ago, Shawn-O said:

"Comparison is the thief of joy" -- Theodore Roosevelt   

"Logic is the thief of overreaction" -InHeavenThereIsNoBeer(just now)

[The Sicatoka]

 

[nodakvindy]

14 hours ago, Dustin said:

If I were to rate the elite college hockey programs, it would go as follows:

1. North Dakota (based on all the info presented earlier, plus numerous regular season and post-season conference championships)

2. Minnesota (bests #3 Wisconsin based on their conference resume, something that Wisconsin lacks, and more title game appearances)

3. Wisconsin (not nearly as streaky as #2 Minnesota with the natties, but trails in conference hardware and title game appearances)

4. Denver (very streaky with the natties with a long gap, but is tied for the most natties, and has decent conference hardware)

5. Boston University (very comparable to #6 BC, but has never gone through a super long drought)

6. Boston College (very comparable to #5 BU, but with a very super long title drought)

7. Michigan (really only one era of dominance, and that was when only a few teams even made the NCAA tournament.  Very long title droughts, longest is 32 years, current is 25 years.  The only reason they're even in the elite club is their (now tied) record number of championships)

I'd be curious to know how your list differs, if it does...

I'd bump Denver up to #2, they have titles in 5 decades, second only to UND with six. They have also done it under four coaches. They have conference titles nearly on par with Minnesota and far surpass Wisconsin. BC and BU really are a toss-up, but BC has more Frozen Fours so would give them nod based on that. 

Weathering coaching departures is probably what makes the elite programs. Michigan couldn't do it after Vic Heyliger, Denver struggled after Murray Armstrong, BU has been inconsistent in post Jack Parker years. BC will be interesting case when York retires (they have struggled in his twilight years).  UNDs only down time was the Bjorkman era. 

[The Sicatoka]

"Fighting Sioux 23" at USCHO has a monster formulaic they use. 

This thread starts in 2017 and is current up to last week. 

https://fanforum.uscho.com/forum/college-hockey/men-s-division-i/33984-the-greatest-programs-of-all-time-1-60 

[siouxkid12]

15 hours ago, Dustin said:

If I were to rate the elite college hockey programs, it would go as follows:

1. North Dakota (based on all the info presented earlier, plus numerous regular season and post-season conference championships)

2. Minnesota (bests #3 Wisconsin based on their conference resume, something that Wisconsin lacks, and more title game appearances)

3. Wisconsin (not nearly as streaky as #2 Minnesota with the natties, but trails in conference hardware and title game appearances)

4. Denver (very streaky with the natties with a long gap, but is tied for the most natties, and has decent conference hardware)

5. Boston University (very comparable to #6 BC, but has never gone through a super long drought)

6. Boston College (very comparable to #5 BU, but with a very super long title drought)

7. Michigan (really only one era of dominance, and that was when only a few teams even made the NCAA tournament.  Very long title droughts, longest is 32 years, current is 25 years.  The only reason they're even in the elite club is their (now tied) record number of championships)

I'd be curious to know how your list differs, if it does...

The fact that you won't put Duluth in as an elite program is flawed. 

[brianvf]

30 minutes ago, siouxkid12 said:

The fact that you won't put Duluth in as an elite program is flawed. 

How so?
They're similar to LSSU in my opinion.
Both won all three of their titles in a short timeframe, but haven't done much else outside of that limited time.

Would you classify LSSU as an elite program?

If UMD continues to excel and take home national titles over the next decade, then we can talk IMO.

[siouxkid12]

18 minutes ago, brianvf said:

How so?
They're similar to LSSU in my opinion.
Both won all three of their titles in a short timeframe, but haven't done much else outside of that limited time.

Would you classify LSSU as an elite program?

If UMD continues to excel and take home national titles over the next decade, then we can talk IMO.

You could say that about almost any school that won titles (I know LSSU won in the late 80's/90's) before the 80's. Not many schools offered hockey as a school sponsored sport. Where do you draw the line? The fact of the matter if you look at the last 20 years; Duluth, Denver and Boston College have been the elite hockey schools in college hockey.

[brianvf]

29 minutes ago, siouxkid12 said:

You could say that about almost any school that won titles (I know LSSU won in the late 80's/90's) before the 80's. Not many schools offered hockey as a school sponsored sport. Where do you draw the line? The fact of the matter if you look at the last 20 years; Duluth, Denver and Boston College have been the elite hockey schools in college hockey.

If you're looking at the elite college hockey programs of all-time, it can't just be limited to the last 20 years though.
Then you'd have to omit Michigan since they haven't won anything in that timeframe.
But it'd be crazy to have a list of the best college hockey programs and not have Michigan on it.

If UMD continues to be a relevant player in the hunt for national titles over the next decade, then I think you could include them in the list of college hockey elite.
Until then, it's hard to justify putting them in the elite category when they didn't do anything in the 50 years prior to their 2011 title.

[Dustin]

39 minutes ago, siouxkid12 said:

Where do you draw the line?

Right now I draw the line at more than 4 natties and less than 4 natties (presently there is no school with exactly 4).  I put UMD in the second tier with schools that have won multiple titles (so not a one and done) but not in the upper echelon of programs that have at least a ring for every finger on one hand.  Other schools in this tier include Michigan St., LSSU, Maine, Cornell, Michigan Tech, Colorado College, and RPI.  Now, UMD is on the best upward trajectory of any of those schools, and would be at least one, probably two, titles away from being added to the list of elite, depending on when it happens and how many more the other schools have accumulated.

[The Sicatoka]

33 minutes ago, brianvf said:

... when they didn't do anything in the 50 years prior to their 2011 title.

C'mon, they lost a 4OT title game to BGSU.  

[brianvf]

2 minutes ago, The Sicatoka said:

C'mon, they lost a 4OT title game to BGSU.  

That's a darn shame.   

[Fighting Sioux 23]

7 hours ago, The Sicatoka said:

"Fighting Sioux 23" at USCHO has a monster formulaic they use. 

This thread starts in 2017 and is current up to last week. 

https://fanforum.uscho.com/forum/college-hockey/men-s-division-i/33984-the-greatest-programs-of-all-time-1-60 

If you look at the first post of that thread, it has links to the prior threads (back when USCHO capped threads at 1000 posts).  I've been posting the formula results over there since 2010.

[fightingsioux4life]

23 hours ago, Dustin said:

I went even more in depth and took into account the times that teams played in the championship game, but ultimately lost (NCAA runner-up):

Denver - 12 championship games (9 titles), avg=5.9 years between championship game appearances, 31 year title game gap, 35 year title gap

Michigan - 12 championship games (9 titles), avg=6.2 years between championship game appearances, 19 year title game gap, 32 year title gap

North Dakota - 13 championship games (8 titles), avg=5.6 years between championship game appearances, 11 year title game gap, 17 year title gap

Wisconsin - 9 championship games (6 titles), avg=6.3 years between championship game appearances, 14 year title game gap, 17 year title gap (current streak)

Minnesota - 13 championship games (5 titles), avg=6.2 years between championship game appearances, 13 year title game gap, 23 year title gap

Boston College - 10 championship games (5 titles), avg=7.4 years between championship game appearances, 23 year title game gap, 52 year title gap

UMD - Doesn't count in my opinion, as they are not one of the elite programs throughout the history of the NCAA tournament, but a program not mentioned above...

Boston University - 11 championship games (5 titles), avg=6.7 years between championship game appearances, 17 year title game gap, 17 year title gap

 

I guess where I'm going with all this, North Dakota has been the most consistent college hockey program throughout the history of the NCAA tournament.  Tied for most championship games played (13 appearances).  Shortest average time between title game appearances (5.6 years).  Shortest gap in title game appearances (11 years).  Tied for shortest title gap (17 years).  Not a decade has gone by without UND playing in a championship game.  Only one decade resulted in no championships (1970s).  No other program can boast that level of consistency.

Should we hang banners for that?

[nodakvindy]

6 hours ago, brianvf said:

How so?
They're similar to LSSU in my opinion.
Both won all three of their titles in a short timeframe, but haven't done much else outside of that limited time.

Would you classify LSSU as an elite program?

If UMD continues to excel and take home national titles over the next decade, then we can talk IMO.

But LSSU did absolutely nothing outside their 88 to 94 stretch. UMD made a final in 84 and have produced the most Hobey winners.

They are definitely a notch below the 5 timer club, but trending in right direction. I'd say they are most likely school to be the next to 5. They have been more relevant this century than Wisconsin, Michigan or BU. How they continue after Sandelin's departure will determine if the make the full jump to elite. 

 

[farce poobah]

26 minutes ago, fightingsioux4life said:

Should we hang banners for that?

The banners are already hanging.

 

[Goon]

13 hours ago, bale31 said:

So, a couple of interesting stories told last night at the MSU welcome home event. FIrst one from the AD. He told a story about the Denver AD berating him for 10 minutes in front of all their colleagues during the conference split about how MSU will never compete for national titles because they didn't have the institutional commitment to compete. That has definitely stuck with the administration and they are very bitter about it. 

I'd like to hear more about this. 

[brianvf]

2 hours ago, nodakvindy said:

But LSSU did absolutely nothing outside their 88 to 94 stretch. UMD made a final in 84 and have produced the most Hobey winners.

LSSU almost went back to back to back…only thing that prevented that was the 1993 Kariya-led Maine team. 
It’s hard to count individual awards that are voted on by a committee as evidence of an elite program. 
They're very similar programs. Both have three titles all within a one decade span but haven’t done much outside of that decade. 
I feel the judgement is skewed because UMDs titles are more recent. If their titles were all flipped and UMD hadn’t won a title since 1994, would they still be considered elite?

[bale31]

8 hours ago, Goon said:

I'd like to hear more about this. 

That was all he said. To be honest, I don't think it was that the Denver AD thought it or the conference switch happened (I believe this was part of that process), it was the unprofessional undressing of a colleague in front of their peers.