2019 Non-UND FCS Thread

[geaux_sioux]

1 hour ago, Bison06 said:

I used to fall mostly on your side of the discussion, but now find myself advocating more for the student-athletes rights.

Most people who haven’t been NCAA student-athletes don’t understand the extent to which the university you play for and/or the NCAA truly own your name and likeness. Sure, we all see the high profile cases where the university is making millions off of an individual eg. free publicity gained from an athlete winning the heisman. But what they don’t see are the simple examples. Say a UND player is from a small town and has made a name for himself and wants to run a camp with their name attached to it in their home town. They can’t.
Another example, I worked at a bar to make money while playing college football. One day I showed up and they wanted to take pictures of me interacting with the bar patrons for a new menu, they wanted to pay me a few hundred bucks for my time and to use my likeness moving forward. This is an NCAA violation under the current rules and I would have had my scholarship revoked for profiting from my likeness. These smaller examples is where I really side with the student athlete.

It’s a full time job. Additionally, students on academic scholarships can make money on those same skills while in school without their scholarship being revoked.

[Bison06]

15 minutes ago, geaux_sioux said:

It’s a full time job. Additionally, students on academic scholarships can make money on those same skills while in school without their scholarship being revoked.

Absolutely.  I’m not sure what the end result looks like, but as it currently stands, I believe it’s extremely unfair to college athletes.

Where I see issues potentially is in recruiting. If a player has value and can profit from his own likeness, I’m not sure how you would police local businesses hiring athletes as spokespeople as a way to sweeten the pot in a recruiting. The capitalist in me says if a business thinks a kid brings their business value and wants to pay him, then have at it. But I see it potentially becoming a problem too. 

[SiouxVolley]

11 hours ago, jdub27 said:

Source?

It’s likely the CFP payouts go up over two times just based on familiarity with consumers.  Beyond that the playoff will likely expand, making more games part of it, so 50-100% expansion if not more just based on a bigger tournament.  Am projecting the G5 will go to a G8, so it will be divided further.  Any FCS school that has the capability to move up before 2025 in a conference would be foolish not to partake in the financial bounty and move up.

https://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/article/Expansion-may-be-answer-14972893.php

[gundy1124]

8 hours ago, Bison06 said:

I used to fall mostly on your side of the discussion, but now find myself advocating more for the student-athletes rights.

Most people who haven’t been NCAA student-athletes don’t understand the extent to which the university you play for and/or the NCAA truly own your name and likeness. Sure, we all see the high profile cases where the university is making millions off of an individual eg. free publicity gained from an athlete winning the heisman. But what they don’t see are the simple examples. Say a UND player is from a small town and has made a name for himself and wants to run a camp with their name attached to it in their home town. They can’t.
Another example, I worked at a bar to make money while playing college football. One day I showed up and they wanted to take pictures of me interacting with the bar patrons for a new menu, they wanted to pay me a few hundred bucks for my time and to use my likeness moving forward. This is an NCAA violation under the current rules and I would have had my scholarship revoked for profiting from my likeness. These smaller examples is where I really side with the student athlete.

The Northern??  Just a guess.

[Bison06]

7 hours ago, gundy1124 said:

The Northern??  Just a guess.

Haha, I don’t have the proper equipment to succeed there.

[MIBT]

On 1/15/2020 at 5:31 PM, Bison06 said:

Absolutely.  I’m not sure what the end result looks like, but as it currently stands, I believe it’s extremely unfair to college athletes.

Where I see issues potentially is in recruiting. If a player has value and can profit from his own likeness, I’m not sure how you would police local businesses hiring athletes as spokespeople as a way to sweeten the pot in a recruiting. The capitalist in me says if a business thinks a kid brings their business value and wants to pay him, then have at it. But I see it potentially becoming a problem too. 

This is exactly why I think this is a very bad and dangerous idea. Let's say school A is recruiting Jonny Linebacker and let him know if he enrolls and hosts a camp in his hometown over the summer, a "sponsor" will pay him $100k annually to do it. School B finds out and says if you enroll here and speak to a group of alumni at homecoming, we feel the value of that is $200k. This is 100% a recruiting issue and a huge pandora's box that would ultimately end the NCAA as we know it. The colleges were never intended to be a minor leagues for professional sports. Baseball has this right and they are still one of only 5 money makers for the NCAA (basketball, wrestling, hockey, and lacrosse are the others) of their 85 championship sports across all divisions. If you want to make money developing your skills, do the bus routes in the minor leagues. If you want to get an education paid for while playing your sport and possibly go pro, then take the college scholarship route. Both are very good options.

[Bison06]

1 hour ago, MIBT said:

This is exactly why I think this is a very bad and dangerous idea. Let's say school A is recruiting Jonny Linebacker and let him know if he enrolls and hosts a camp in his hometown over the summer, a "sponsor" will pay him $100k annually to do it. School B finds out and says if you enroll here and speak to a group of alumni at homecoming, we feel the value of that is $200k. This is 100% a recruiting issue and a huge pandora's box that would ultimately end the NCAA as we know it. The colleges were never intended to be a minor leagues for professional sports. Baseball has this right and they are still one of only 5 money makers for the NCAA (basketball, wrestling, hockey, and lacrosse are the others) of their 85 championship sports across all divisions. If you want to make money developing your skills, do the bus routes in the minor leagues. If you want to get an education paid for while playing your sport and possibly go pro, then take the college scholarship route. Both are very good options.

Agree 100% that it would create the above scenario and that is a problem that would need to be addressed properly through very specific rules if this is to happen. The trouble with “they were never intended to be minor leagues” is they have become de facto minor leagues with no other viable route to become a pro in many sports, football being the most obvious. The NFL gets to have a minor league without the costs and the NCAA and it’s member institutions get free labor to make literal billions. 

I think hockey and baseball have the best scenario for high school athletes. You want to get an education? Go through the NCAA. You want to just play your sport and try to go pro, we have the minor leagues for that. 
 

As it stands now, a high school football or basketball star is basically forced to become an NCAA student athlete if they’d like to play professionally.(basketball could go to Europe, but that pipeline has only worked for one American star that I’m aware of, Jennings)
 

It certainly isn’t a simple solution and your points are well taken and true. Hopefully the NCAA can come to a solution that has the interests of these athletes in mind and not exclusively their own interests.

[bison73]

2 hours ago, MIBT said:

This is exactly why I think this is a very bad and dangerous idea. Let's say school A is recruiting Jonny Linebacker and let him know if he enrolls and hosts a camp in his hometown over the summer, a "sponsor" will pay him $100k annually to do it. School B finds out and says if you enroll here and speak to a group of alumni at homecoming, we feel the value of that is $200k. This is 100% a recruiting issue and a huge pandora's box that would ultimately end the NCAA as we know it. The colleges were never intended to be a minor leagues for professional sports. Baseball has this right and they are still one of only 5 money makers for the NCAA (basketball, wrestling, hockey, and lacrosse are the others) of their 85 championship sports across all divisions. If you want to make money developing your skills, do the bus routes in the minor leagues. If you want to get an education paid for while playing your sport and possibly go pro, then take the college scholarship route. Both are very good options.

Guess what? That already happens now. Except its under the table.

[MIBT]

12 hours ago, Bison06 said:

Agree 100% that it would create the above scenario and that is a problem that would need to be addressed properly through very specific rules if this is to happen. The trouble with “they were never intended to be minor leagues” is they have become de facto minor leagues with no other viable route to become a pro in many sports, football being the most obvious. The NFL gets to have a minor league without the costs and the NCAA and it’s member institutions get free labor to make literal billions. 

I think hockey and baseball have the best scenario for high school athletes. You want to get an education? Go through the NCAA. You want to just play your sport and try to go pro, we have the minor leagues for that. 

As it stands now, a high school football or basketball star is basically forced to become an NCAA student athlete if they’d like to play professionally.(basketball could go to Europe, but that pipeline has only worked for one American star that I’m aware of, Jennings)

It certainly isn’t a simple solution and your points are well taken and true. Hopefully the NCAA can come to a solution that has the interests of these athletes in mind and not exclusively their own interests.

There is a huge difference between generating billions of dollars of revenue and making billions of dollars. Contrary to popular belief the school and conference athletic budgets and especially the NCAA budgets are very tight. There are a lot of expenses tied up in those revenue dollars. There are some coaches who make ridiculous money but that number is probably less than 100. The G5 and FCS coaches make good livings, but they don't get that income for a long period of time in most cases. D2 and D3 coaches aren't in poverty, but they aren't making any more than the average person at their age and stage of career. The FCS football championship doesn't pay for itself. Some costs are underwritten by the other championships that do make more than they spend (most of it basketball). The individual schools though are able to use football to pay for many of the other non-revenue producing sports. A good friend of mine has a son who plays for a B1G school and the amount of services and perks they get above and beyond scholarship and COA is impressive.

College sports were never intended to be minor leagues for professional sports, but it's not their problem to solve that the professional leagues have failed to create their own professional minor leagues. The NCAA is responsible for all divisions and all sports so we are talking like 2% of the student athletes causing this issue. The juice isn't worth the squeeze for them to get into the issues of paying student athletes or governing external payments.

11 hours ago, bison73 said:

Guess what? That already happens now. Except its under the table.

I'm sure it does at some level, but it would be so much worse if these laws and policies are enacting. You are potentially getting into labor laws and athletes becoming employees. This would make them subject to income tax. It sounds great in a vacuum, but we can't possibly know all the ramifications of doing it. Ultimately boosters want to use their money to influence what student athletes come to their school. This is not being done to ultimately benefit the student athlete.

[UND1983]

12 hours ago, bison73 said:

Guess what? That already happens now. Except its under the table.

Yes but now it would be common at many levels instead of just the top players

[Bison06]

36 minutes ago, MIBT said:

There is a huge difference between generating billions of dollars of revenue and making billions of dollars. Contrary to popular belief the school and conference athletic budgets and especially the NCAA budgets are very tight. There are a lot of expenses tied up in those revenue dollars. There are some coaches who make ridiculous money but that number is probably less than 100. The G5 and FCS coaches make good livings, but they don't get that income for a long period of time in most cases. D2 and D3 coaches aren't in poverty, but they aren't making any more than the average person at their age and stage of career. The FCS football championship doesn't pay for itself. Some costs are underwritten by the other championships that do make more than they spend (most of it basketball). The individual schools though are able to use football to pay for many of the other non-revenue producing sports. A good friend of mine has a son who plays for a B1G school and the amount of services and perks they get above and beyond scholarship and COA is impressive.

College sports were never intended to be minor leagues for professional sports, but it's not their problem to solve that the professional leagues have failed to create their own professional minor leagues. The NCAA is responsible for all divisions and all sports so we are talking like 2% of the student athletes causing this issue. The juice isn't worth the squeeze for them to get into the issues of paying student athletes or governing external payments.

I'm sure it does at some level, but it would be so much worse if these laws and policies are enacting. You are potentially getting into labor laws and athletes becoming employees. This would make them subject to income tax. It sounds great in a vacuum, but we can't possibly know all the ramifications of doing it. Ultimately boosters want to use their money to influence what student athletes come to their school. This is not being done to ultimately benefit the student athlete.

I agree and am aware of the school's budgets. Which is why I'm not advocating for these funds to be paid from the university in the form of a stipend or salary to the players. I'm simply advocating for the players to be allowed to profit from their own likeness and name on their own if they choose to do so.

To give the NCAA a pass on your second paragraph, implies that the NCAA and the pro leagues don't collaborate to create mutually beneficial rules, which happens constantly. Who does it help to have the "one and done rule" in college basketball? Well, the NBA gets to let top players develop one more year before they need to invest and they get to further vet them against a higher level of competition. The NCAA benefits from having the top talent not skip over them and go straight to the NBA. The only party it doesn't benefit in the slightest is the athlete. The NCAA and NBA have created a captive situation and are in effect forcing these athletes to go to college against their will in most cases. Risking further injury before getting paid.

Of course, there would need to be proper oversight, I'm not advocating for the wild west. But say Joe Burrow had a year of eligibility left and planned to play next year. If he wanted to run the Joe Burrow QB camp for highschool kids in Baton Rouge, why shouldn't he be able to do that?

[Mama Sue]

Bison06: I basically disagree with everything... sponsorship never equaled the schools paying...where did that come from?
when they go pro, have them sell their likeness to General Mills for the. Wheaties box. Until then shut up and put up.... I do not think it is appropriate for public tax money to go to this and you KNOW, totally KNOW each college would pay a whole new department to manage sponsorship of athletes.

if the wash machine ain’t broke, don’t spend time and money to fix it.

[Bison06]

3 minutes ago, Mama Sue said:

Bison06: I basically disagree with everything... sponsorship never equaled the schools paying...where did that come from?
when they go pro, have them sell their likeness to General Mills for the. Wheaties box. Until then shut up and put up.... I do not think it is appropriate for public tax money to go to this and you KNOW, totally KNOW each college would pay a whole new department to manage sponsorship of athletes.

if the wash machine ain’t broke, don’t spend time and money to fix it.

Two things:

1. Your hostility is completely unfounded, this has been a civil conversation about a very hotly debated topic in college athletics right now.

2. If it ain't broke don't fix it? It's broken, it's been broken for a long time, fixing it is an absolute necessity. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/30/sports/college-athletes-paid-california.html

[NEBison]

2 hours ago, Mama Sue said:

Bison06: I basically disagree with everything... sponsorship never equaled the schools paying...where did that come from?
when they go pro, have them sell their likeness to General Mills for the. Wheaties box. Until then shut up and put up.... I do not think it is appropriate for public tax money to go to this and you KNOW, totally KNOW each college would pay a whole new department to manage sponsorship of athletes.

if the wash machine ain’t broke, don’t spend time and money to fix it.

This is a god awful take.

[JohnboyND7]

We had lawyers from a big firm come and discuss these topics to us at my law school.  

The vibe they were giving off was that it is unlikely to be "free market" anytime soon. 

[geaux_sioux]

23 minutes ago, JohnboyND7 said:

We had lawyers from a big firm come and discuss these topics to us at my law school.  

The vibe they were giving off was that it is unlikely to be "free market" anytime soon. 

Black free market it is

[Mama Sue]

Shakespeare: Me thinks she doth protest too much!

yup, black market for sure

siouxphan: do you see multiple juice sponsorships in the future???

[Bison06]

1 hour ago, Mama Sue said:

Shakespeare: Me thinks she doth protest too much!

yup, black market for sure

siouxphan: do you see multiple juice sponsorships in the future???

Answer this direct question:

If James Johanneson wanted to put on a running back camp in Fargo over the summer for Fargo South High School using his name and making money for his personal time, what is your argument for why that is bad?

[Mama Sue]

This is NOT a one college, one sport, one player question. The focus is much broader... much. There are too many implications to consider...things get way out of hand.

Sadly, you seem to see this from a very narrow perspective. Your player knew the rules when he signed up. He can do the camp after he graduates. Shouldn’t he be focused on the team and his S & C and not on promoting himself to adoring youth all summer long?

What is wrong is the rather selfish “I want” mentality. I just would not support this type of sponsorships for college athletes. That is my opinion, that’s all.

[Bison06]

So a 4th year biology student at UND can take the knowledge that UND provided and teach a summer biology camp for an appropriate wage, but a UND football player doing the equivalent with the skills and knowledge they have will result in a revocation of their scholarship and you think that’s “selfish”? 

[bison73]

3 hours ago, Mama Sue said:

This is NOT a one college, one sport, one player question. The focus is much broader... much. There are too many implications to consider...things get way out of hand.

Sadly, you seem to see this from a very narrow perspective. Your player knew the rules when he signed up. He can do the camp after he graduates. Shouldn’t he be focused on the team and his S & C and not on promoting himself to adoring youth all summer long?

What is wrong is the rather selfish “I want” mentality. I just would not support this type of sponsorships for college athletes. That is my opinion, that’s all.

What you dont understand is it has nothing to do with the rules he signed up under as the rules have changed. This is in play. The NCAA just has to figure out how to manage it.

 

Promoting himself to adoring youth??????

[NoiseInsideMyHead]

Arguably, the rules were never about fairness or equity, but were put in place to prevent runaway corruption or worse. High-profile sanctions suggest that the system can work, though we can certainly debate specific outcomes and enforcement levels. Most of the anecdotal knowledge about under-the-table deals for star athletes is either fantasy, urban legend, or incapable of proof under current compliance practices. A zero-tolerance model seems harsh, but it’s perhaps preferable to one that now forces schools to try and decipher between bona fide commercial activity and sham transactions.

On the plus side, I think that the increase in income tax collections for Uncle Sam will help the economy. This is a 2-way street, and Joe QB may end up regretting the sunlight on his cozy deals with boosters and used car lots.

[Mama Sue]

Well said!

[Bison06]

The ideal scenario is both basketball and football having a viable alternative to the NCAA as a route to the pros. If that existed  then none of this would be an issue. Of course the NCAA would lobby very hard against that as it would be a death blow for them. 
Having an alternative league allows all parties to get exactly what they want. Member institutions can keep their rules and players who have zero interest in pretending to be students for 2-3 years can get paid while preparing for their professional career.

[JohnboyND7]

2 hours ago, Bison06 said:

The ideal scenario is both basketball and football having a viable alternative to the NCAA as a route to the pros. If that existed  then none of this would be an issue. Of course the NCAA would lobby very hard against that as it would be a death blow for them. 
Having an alternative league allows all parties to get exactly what they want. Member institutions can keep their rules and players who have zero interest in pretending to be students for 2-3 years can get paid while preparing for their professional career.

Basketball does have a viable alternative and has for decades. It's called overseas leagues. 

I don't see how minor league basketball or football would negatively impact college sports. I am not sure minor leagues are financially viable anyway.