UND to cut women's hockey

[AJS]

Anytime there is talk about female sports getting cut, it's followed shortly by lawsuits from that team. Does anyone know of this actually taking place? Seems like it's always a lot more talk, I hope so anyway. I have no doubt that bringing in the Title IX lawyers that UND has everything in order, but a lawsuit would really cause a giant headache for the University. Based on the way things went last week, it wouldn't surprise me if the Women's hockey team went that way.

[Shawn-O]

23 minutes ago, UND1983 said:

The lawsuit is coming.  But, that is why they hired the Title IX experts.  

Wondering if the lawsuit may be coming from the S&D, as well?  They have just as good of a case.  

Dumb question, can someone help me understand the basis of a potential lawsuit?  The scholarships are being honored, of course.  Where is there harm?  

[SJHovey]

This is just my personal opinion, and I recognize many people here, at UND, or around the country in general may disagree with this opinion, but I think it is a mistake to judge the merits of the women's hockey program, or any other college athletic program, by the number of fans it draws to its games.  I don't think that can or should be a consideration.

The way I look at it, a University's athletic offerings should be as broad as it's educational offerings.  Just because very few people may study English Lit for a major, that doesn't mean the University should drop it.  We want a broad base of educational opportunities to attract a broad base of students.

The same with our sports teams. 

During the seven years I was at UND I attended many men's hockey games, quite a few football and basketball games, and about three baseball games.  That's it.  No swimming meets.  No track meets.  No soccer or field hockey or volleyball or anything else.  But that doesn't mean the programs should be dropped.

By offering all these programs, we attract a class of students with a broader array of sports interests.  We offer scholarships to people who are good at swimming, but not so good at basketball.  These are loss leader programs.  We lose money on them, but you need to have them.  You need them to be a University.  It's a matter of figuring out how to fund them.

To me, the failure of the University is in its relationship with the legislature and governor, and the University's failure to address, in advance, money problems which were clearly heading its way.

[UND1983]

1 minute ago, Shawn-O said:

Dumb question, can someone help me understand the basis of a potential lawsuit?  The scholarships are being honored, of course.  Where is there harm?  

I don't know that answer but my contact in the AD is planning on it.  Might never happen but they are ready.  

The women's hockey program is equating themselves with the Men's program because they play the same sport.  That is their fatal flaw and the flaw in pretty much every supporter's argument that I have read online.  

[90siouxfan]

10 minutes ago, SJHovey said:

This is just my personal opinion, and I recognize many people here, at UND, or around the country in general may disagree with this opinion, but I think it is a mistake to judge the merits of the women's hockey program, or any other college athletic program, by the number of fans it draws to its games.  I don't think that can or should be a consideration.

The way I look at it, a University's athletic offerings should be as broad as it's educational offerings.  Just because very few people may study English Lit for a major, that doesn't mean the University should drop it.  We want a broad base of educational opportunities to attract a broad base of students.

The same with our sports teams. 

During the seven years I was at UND I attended many men's hockey games, quite a few football and basketball games, and about three baseball games.  That's it.  No swimming meets.  No track meets.  No soccer or field hockey or volleyball or anything else.  But that doesn't mean the programs should be dropped.

By offering all these programs, we attract a class of students with a broader array of sports interests.  We offer scholarships to people who are good at swimming, but not so good at basketball.  These are loss leader programs.  We lose money on them, but you need to have them.  You need them to be a University.  It's a matter of figuring out how to fund them.

To me, the failure of the University is in its relationship with the legislature and governor, and the University's failure to address, in advance, money problems which were clearly heading its way.

Are you implying these students are receiving degrees in their chosen sport?  What is the cost per student for an English Lit degree?

 

 

[cberkas]

12 minutes ago, SJHovey said:

This is just my personal opinion, and I recognize many people here, at UND, or around the country in general may disagree with this opinion, but I think it is a mistake to judge the merits of the women's hockey program, or any other college athletic program, by the number of fans it draws to its games.  I don't think that can or should be a consideration.

The way I look at it, a University's athletic offerings should be as broad as it's educational offerings.  Just because very few people may study English Lit for a major, that doesn't mean the University should drop it.  We want a broad base of educational opportunities to attract a broad base of students.

The same with our sports teams. 

During the seven years I was at UND I attended many men's hockey games, quite a few football and basketball games, and about three baseball games.  That's it.  No swimming meets.  No track meets.  No soccer or field hockey or volleyball or anything else.  But that doesn't mean the programs should be dropped.

By offering all these programs, we attract a class of students with a broader array of sports interests.  We offer scholarships to people who are good at swimming, but not so good at basketball.  These are loss leader programs.  We lose money on them, but you need to have them.  You need them to be a University.  It's a matter of figuring out how to fund them.

To me, the failure of the University is in its relationship with the legislature and governor, and the University's failure to address, in advance, money problems which were clearly heading its way.

If the team was doing what Duluth, Minnesota, and Wisconsin do in the NCAAs (win titles) people would show up. I'm sure that the attendance starts to decrease once it looks like they have to win the WCHA to make the NCAAs.

Losing $2 million is the reason why people agree with UND cutting the sport. It sucks that it happened but it had to be done. 

The ladies need to start being proactive in finding a way to get money instead of stomping their feet and draging the University, that they love, through the mud.

The women's team could make some money by sell ad space on their jerseys.

[UNDBIZ]

5 minutes ago, cberkas said:

The women's team could make some money by sell ad space on their jerseys.

Why would a business pay to place an advertisement on the jersey of a team nobody watches?

[Siouxperfan7]

5 minutes ago, cberkas said:

If the team was doing what Duluth, Minnesota, and Wisconsin do in the NCAAs (win titles) people would show up. I'm sure that the attendance starts to decrease once it looks like they have to win the WCHA to make the NCAAs.

Losing $2 million is the reason why people agree with UND cutting the sport. It sucks that it happened but it had to be done. 

The ladies need to start being proactive in finding a way to get money instead of stomping their feet and draging the University, that they love, through the mud.

The women's team could make some money by sell ad space on their jerseys.

Probably not allowed by the NCAA, but think of the possibilities?!!

[cberkas]

1 minute ago, UNDBIZ said:

Why would a business pay to place an advertisement on the jersey of a team nobody watches?

It's a better idea then what they have come up with so far, which is nothing.

 

[cberkas]

1 minute ago, Siouxperfan7 said:

Probably not allowed by the NCAA, but think of the possibilities?!!

The NBA thought about doing it, I want to say the NHL did too.

[UNDvince97-01]

I have said this for at least 2 years on here and in conversation with many people, but I will ask it again....

On which grounds is a Title IX lawsuit against UND going to be even be considered by a judge?  Which criteria and what would their argument be?  Any law firm looking to file suit has to look at it and say "we have no chance".  It would be bad publicity for any firm to even take it up - and a complete waste of time and money.

I have been researching Title IX for a couple years now, specifically in relation to UND's situation.  They literally have no grounds.  I'm no judge or legal expert, but common sense and the numbers and facts would reveal it to be a frivolous lawsuit at best and it would be thrown out by any competent judge (I know, I know). 

I'm open to any argument on this to make a lawsuit plausible.  Someone set me straight please and we can debate it from there...

[Shawn-O]

Armchair attorney for a day:  I would guess they would go after the more qualitative, least data-driven argument (Prong 3).  Hurt feelings will the plantiff's friend, data and hard facts, the enemy.  

 

http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/inclusion/title-ix-frequently-asked-questions#how

[SIOUXFAN97]

i look forward to the lawsuit to finally end the this nonsense...and heck we might even get baseball back!

[MafiaMan]

58 minutes ago, cberkas said:

The NBA IS doing it, I want to say the NHL did too.

Fixed your post...starting next season.  

[petey23]

43 minutes ago, UNDvince97-01 said:

I have said this for at least 2 years on here and in conversation with many people, but I will ask it again....

On which grounds is a Title IX lawsuit against UND going to be even be considered by a judge?  Which criteria and what would their argument be?  Any law firm looking to file suit has to look at it and say "we have no chance".  It would be bad publicity for any firm to even take it up - and a complete waste of time and money.

I have been researching Title IX for a couple years now, specifically in relation to UND's situation.  They literally have no grounds.  I'm no judge or legal expert, but common sense and the numbers and facts would reveal it to be a frivolous lawsuit at best and it would be thrown out by any competent judge (I know, I know). 

I'm open to any argument on this to make a lawsuit plausible.  Someone set me straight please and we can debate it from there...

Depends on the judge. If you get a judge who looks at facts and figures then this is over before it starts, if you get a judge who rules on emotion and thinks it is his/her job to make up things as they go along...well, then it will turn into a huge clusterf^ck

[UND1983]

#endthefight

Solid all-around effort by the WH team.  Bitch, complain, play the victim, start a hashtag, claim sexism.  Then, quit.  

[fightingsioux4life]

14 minutes ago, SIOUXFAN97 said:

i look forward to the lawsuit to finally end the this nonsense...and heck we might even get baseball back!

Baseball does not work in our climate. Neither does softball, which I would have eliminated along with the others a couple of weeks ago.

[Siouxperfan7]

15 minutes ago, UND1983 said:

#endthefight

Solid all-around effort by the WH team.  Bitch, complain, play the victim, start a hashtag, claim sexism.  Then, quit.  

I wouldn't us the word quit.   More like accepting reality and moving on.  Either way I hope players see this is the smarter more practical thing they should be doing instead of making t shirts with hashtag slogans on them.  

[UND1983]

1 minute ago, Siouxperfan7 said:

I wouldn't us the word quit.   More like accepting reality and moving on.  Either way I hope players see this is the smarter more practical thing they should be doing instead of making t shirts with hashtag slogans on them.  

They quit.

The baseball team fought it, got together with alumni, and presented a proposal, at least.  WH didn't do anything other than meet with Kennedy, find out how much they needed, and then quit. 

[Sioux>Bison]

1 hour ago, SJHovey said:

This is just my personal opinion, and I recognize many people here, at UND, or around the country in general may disagree with this opinion, but I think it is a mistake to judge the merits of the women's hockey program, or any other college athletic program, by the number of fans it draws to its games.  I don't think that can or should be a consideration.

The way I look at it, a University's athletic offerings should be as broad as it's educational offerings.  Just because very few people may study English Lit for a major, that doesn't mean the University should drop it.  We want a broad base of educational opportunities to attract a broad base of students.

The same with our sports teams. 

During the seven years I was at UND I attended many men's hockey games, quite a few football and basketball games, and about three baseball games.  That's it.  No swimming meets.  No track meets.  No soccer or field hockey or volleyball or anything else.  But that doesn't mean the programs should be dropped.

By offering all these programs, we attract a class of students with a broader array of sports interests.  We offer scholarships to people who are good at swimming, but not so good at basketball.  These are loss leader programs.  We lose money on them, but you need to have them.  You need them to be a University.  It's a matter of figuring out how to fund them.

To me, the failure of the University is in its relationship with the legislature and governor, and the University's failure to address, in advance, money problems which were clearly heading its way.

Heck if we need all of the sports then why not just add more! Just need to figure out the funding but that isn't hard right? I don't know why these people think we NEED way more sports teams than our fellow peer schools.

[UNDvince97-01]

58 minutes ago, Shawn-O said:

Armchair attorney for a day:  I would guess they would go after the more qualitative, least data-driven argument (Prong 3).  Hurt feelings will the plantiff's friend, data and hard facts, the enemy.  

 

http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/inclusion/title-ix-frequently-asked-questions#how

Currently, Prong 3 is debatable at best in the facilities criteria.  However, once UND Womens Soccer moves into The Engelstad, the facilities argument is dead. There are 11 criteria in Prong 3 regarding "treatment" that are otherwise also covered by UND.

UND currently already has Prongs 1 (Participation) and 2 (Athletic Financial Assistance) lock, stock and barrel.

Furthermore, if I'm UND I would file a counter-lawsuit to recover the University's costs of counsel after the frivolous Title IX lawsuit gets thrown out by any judge with common sense.

OK, your turn for rebuttal...

[AJS]

5 minutes ago, UND1983 said:

They quit.

The baseball team fought it, got together with alumni, and presented a proposal, at least.  WH didn't do anything other than meet with Kennedy, find out how much they needed, and then quit. 

So if it was up to you, you want them to continue fighting this? I know, I was happy to see the transfer and hope there are more to come and quickly. The quicker there is acceptance, the quicker everyone can move on.

[UND1983]

1 minute ago, AJS said:

So if it was up to you, you want them to continue fighting this? I know, I was happy to see the transfer and hope there are more to come and quickly. The quicker there is acceptance, the quicker everyone can move on.

No, I couldn't care less what they do.  But thought they would put up more of a fight than this after trying to elicit so much outrage via Twitter and putting down every UND admin they could.  Thought they might try something after the initial media storm.  They had nothing, apparently.

[UND1983]

After listening to Jocelyn right now with Mac Talk I am ready to debate which was the bigger victory for US Hockey:  US Women over Canada in 2017 World's...or... US Men over Russia in 1980.  

[Shawn-O]

9 minutes ago, UNDvince97-01 said:

Currently, Prong 3 is debatable at best in the facilities criteria.  However, once UND Womens Soccer moves into The Engelstad, the facilities argument is dead. There are 11 criteria in Prong 3 regarding "treatment" that are otherwise also covered by UND.

UND currently already has Prongs 1 (Participation) and 2 (Athletic Financial Assistance) lock, stock and barrel.

Furthermore, if I'm UND I would file a counter-lawsuit to recover the University's costs of counsel after the frivolous Title IX lawsuit gets thrown out by any judge with common sense.

OK, your turn for rebuttal...

Oh I'm with you on this one.  I think any Title IX suit would be a waste of everyone's time.   I found the only angle I could even fathom.