Closing in on Epic Title Drought

[MafiaMan]

Just to biggy back on what you said. If anything, the UND defense the last two years has been one of the top in the country. Look how the d-core has played the last two seasons. I don't think that's by accident. There's no big, slow footed d-man that look like pylons out there.

Sorry, you lost me at "biggy back."

[fightingsioux4life]

Ya, Boston College only has 4 titles in 15 years.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, when do you start blaming the players for not winning? You can't just throw Hak under the bus without throwing the players too. You can't tell me that Hak got outcoached on Thursday night....Hak wasn't the one who let in two soft goals; so do we blame the all mighty Karl Goerhing for not coaching Zane well enough? Schmaltz apparently not being in position towards the end of the game, do we blame Berry?

These are things people dont want to talk about because apparently anyone can coach the players that are currently on the roster and take them to the FF. 

Pattyn said it best in between periods on Thursday "they need to man up and play". When your captain is saying that in an interview, he isn't calling out his coach, he is calling out all of those guys with a jersey on that they need to get their head out of their asses and pick it up.

You are right, it is 4 titles and not 5.  My bad, next time I will look it up first. 

 

As for the rest of your post, the players do what they are told by the coaches.  Hakstol likes his players to play certain systems, which I think sometimes limits their creativity.  Once you get to this point in the season, you need all cylinders firing to win.  Our lack of goal scoring in some of these games is a problem and at least some of that can be blamed on Hakstol's "Baseline" B.S.  You cannot expect your goalie to shut everybody out all the time, so you better be able to "put the biscuit in the basket", as it were.

 

Also, as I have said before, once you get into March and April, the differences between the teams in terms of talent levels gets narrower and narrower.  That is where coaching, strategy and preparation come into play.  Now, I don't know if this was the main factor on Thursday, but I think it was during some previous failed Frozen Four appearances and that is why some people are so frustrated right now.  It isn't just what happened on Thursday, it's the cumulative effect of a 1-6 Frozen Four record over the past 11 years.

 

And finally, when you are the CEO of an organization (as Hakstol is), the buck stops with you.  Not the captain of the team.  Not your assistants (something Denny Green never figured out).  You.  That is why in collegiate (and more so in professional) sports, you don't get rid of all the players (that would make you an expansion team), you get rid of the coach and/or the G.M.

 

Hakstol is the only common denominator during the past 11 years, so he will get criticized when the team fails.  And I think he understands that it goes with the territory.  Too bad some of our fans don't understand it.

[MafiaMan]

fs4l, I can only handle reading one of your books a day...I'll get to that last post tomorrow.

[fightingsioux4life]

They also had down seasons that were completely different from anything Hakstol has ever had.

Well, Bob Babich was fired after a 2-8 season, but Rocky's "down season" was 6-4 in 1996.  Which once again illustrates the difference between the two schools in standards and what constitutes "excellence" in athletics.

[fightingsioux4life]

fs4l, I can only handle reading one of your books a day...I'll get to that last post tomorrow.

ROFL, I like to be thorough!  But yeah, I do get a little long-winded!

[jdub27]

Well, Bob Babich was fired after a 2-8 season, but Rocky's "down season" was 6-4 in 1996. Which once again illustrates the difference between the two schools in standards and what constitutes "excellence" in athletics.

There was more to Rocky moving on then his on the field results but how ever you need to mold the story to help your cause.

[MafiaMan]

Rocky and Bullwinkle aside, it sure would be nice if the Bison won a championship once in a while...

Oh, wait, this is a UND hockey thread...

[90siouxfan]

First of all, don't ever tell me to shut up.  Ever.  This is a fan message board and I will express my opinion whether you like it or not.

 

Second of all, I don't answer to you and neither does anybody else.  You are not "lord and master" of Fighting Sioux Fandom.  If anybody deserves that title, it would be Al Pearson.

 

And finally, no, I am not calling for Hakstol's head.  Changing head coaches is a very serious decision that can have very long-lasting consequences and shouldn't be done willy-nilly.  Replacing Gino with Blaiser was necessary back in 1994 as the program was decaying and not getting any better.  But most of the time, it isn't that easy to determine what the right course of action is.  And this is one of those ambiguous situations.  It is very similar to the situation that Gopher fans were in with Doug Woog in the 1980's and 90's.  Lots of regular season wins, lots of NCAA tournament appearances, a half-dozen trips to the Frozen Four.....but zero NCAA titles.  Some Gopher fans liked Woog and his consistent winning, while others were getting tired of waiting for that elusive fourth NCAA title.  That same debate is now playing out on siouxsports.com.

 

What I find amusing is that some of the same people on here who are saying Hakstol is the greatest thing since sliced bread and color television are probably the same people who used to mock and ridicule the Gophers and Woog for choking in the postseason year after year after year (the term "Golden Chokers" immediately comes to mind).  Talk about a 180 degree flip-flop.  I also used to criticize the Gophers and Woog for repeatedly choking when the chips were down and I am now holding Hakstol and UND's program to that same standard.  I and a few others are being consistent about my criticisms, while others on here have totally changed their perception of what success should consist of based on whose ox is getting gored.

 

I have nothing against Dave Hakstol as a person and I am not at all hungry to throw a family man out on his butt with a pink slip.  But my first loyalty is to UND as an institution (not just athletics, but that is certainly part of it), not any individual person.  And the lack of NCAA titles under Hakstol is a problem for the program.  NCAA titles are not everything, but they are a key component to making a program great, not merely good.  Would NDSU football be considered "great" if they had two runner-up finishes and two semifinal appearances instead of four straight FCS titles?  I think we all know the answer to that.  And I don't think Craig Bohl would have that job in Wyoming right now or the job at NDSU for that matter.

 

I have noticed the very protective Grand Forks media (Schlossman, Miller, Hennessy) loves to compare UND to Boston College when it comes to winning percentage, NCAA appearances, NCAA tournament wins.....and then conveniently leave out the inconvenient truth that over the past 15 years, Boston College and Jerry York have 5 NCAA titles and North Dakota and Dave Hakstol have ZERO.  If you are going to compare the programs, put ALL the statistics there, not just the ones that make Hakstol look good.  But that is what the Grand Forks media does; anything that might make the program look less-than-great gets left out.  Hakstol is probably the most protected head coach of any sport outside of NDSU football in the region.  And that isn't necessarily a good thing.

 

In closing, people like myself do not have a blood lust to see someone fired and thrown out of their job (Hakstol).  But when the marquee program on UND's campus (and, I would argue, the entire state of North Dakota) continues to fail on the biggest stage (the Frozen Four), we get concerned.  We understand that NCAA titles are what at program builds its long-term championship legacy and heritage on.  Don't get me wrong, I love those three straight Final Five titles we won from 2010-2012.  I loved the WCHA regular season titles we won under Hakstol in 2009 and 2011.  And I will be cheering along with everyone else when our first NCHC regular season title banner gets raised in the Fall.  But in order to build and keep a reputation as an elite college hockey program, it is necessary to hang NCAA banners on a somewhat regular basis.  Otherwise, you get put into the same category of the 1980s and 90s Minnesota Gopher teams: very consistently good, but not great.  Not elite.  And if I am wrong about all this, then we might as well anoint the Buffalo Bills as the Team of the 1990s.

 

That is my position on the issue.  That is other people's position on the issue.  And I stand by it.  And I sleep very well at night, thank you very much.

 

Any questions?

So it wasn't you? You sure seem defensive

[90siouxfan]

Blais' teams lost many first round NCAA games, but when they made the Frozen Four they won.

Hak's teams normally win the regionals, but can't get over the hump in the FF.

Hak has a higher NCAA win % than Blais, but people here are calling for his head. He should just plan on losing more first round games to save the team for next year, like Blais seemed to do.

maybe the 10 days between regional is a problem, can we play an exhibition with a CHL or pro team between regionals and FF? I only slightly kidding as I suspect some of the players are pretty beat up

[90siouxfan]

ROFL, I like to be thorough!  But yeah, I do get a little long-winded!

Isn't most of it a tag line? I may have to go back but I am way behind on several threads

[ringneck28]

I truly feel that part of the problem is the business like attitude that Hak institutes for theFF. I think that some of this may come from the fact that he has not won at either his college or pro playing career. He doesn't have that to show the guys, so he coaches like it was a business.

[choyt3]

Too business-like? Thus, too focused? So what's the suggestion? Optional practices and no curfew?

[jk]

I truly feel that part of the problem is the business like attitude that Hak institutes for theFF. I think that some of this may come from the fact that he has not won at either his college or pro playing career. He doesn't have that to show the guys, so he coaches like it was a business.

That felt like part of the problem in 2011, but not a bit in the last two years.  They were on their toes both games, and they made a habit of the most simple straightforward hockey play:  Get the puck and bodies to the net.  It just didn't result in the deflection, rebound type goal enough, but they tried it a bunch.

[MafiaMan]

I truly feel that part of the problem is the business like attitude that Hak institutes for theFF. I think that some of this may come from the fact that he has not won at either his college or pro playing career. He doesn't have that to show the guys, so he coaches like it was a business.

It wasn't Hak's order to the team not to touch the Broadmoor Trophy and I've never heard him spit out the tired "unfinished business" line...

[farce poobah]

I'd like to see Pattyn stay on as a coach.

[stoneySIOUX]

Hak wasn't "handed" anything. He was given a very difficult job with plenty of pressure and plenty of support.

Maybe I'm getting old or maybe I don't like people who hide behind a blog and call for someone's head when they themselves don't have a stake in this program other than to tell Gopher fans we won 8 and they only have 5 or whatever they have.

When Ralph made his announcement that he was donating $100,000,000 there were a handful of people invited to a meeting room at Hyslop after the ceremony. Ralph was there. I was there. Where tf were you and don't pretend you have the faintest f'ing idea what Ralph would say or do. Ralph would give Hakstol and his staff a cocktail and tell them they did a great job and keep it up. He would tell them he appreciated the effort. He would tell Hak he prepared well and did a hell of a job. He would probably tell a story of one of his failures and how there were dumb asses in his life who had no faith in him or his dreams and ideas. He would tell Hak don't worry about the pissants he has his back. Then he would light up a cigarette and have another cocktail. Then he would say "Dave is there anything else I can do to help?". He would never do the chickenshit stuff you and a couple of other Pee Wee B guys are doing right after a game when these guys laid it in the line for you and I as fans but mostly for each other and the traditional of this school and program. Ralph would throw your sorry ass out of the room. Hakstol would still be coach cuz Ralph understood as well as anyone that in the end the road to success has ups and downs and you don't let the failures or setbacks keep you form accomplishing your goals. He would measure a man like an old soldier does. He could go to war with Hak. You sir, would not be in that band of brothers. Knock off your whiney I deserve a Natty and we haven't won won since Dean bull$%!# and do some self reflection as to why you have never been nor ever will be one that people would go to war with. The moderators may boot me but they allow you to say dumb ass stuff about others and they should. But then you need to accept that the overwhelming majority of people with an IQ above 80 and or know something about hockey are tired of your shtick.

Great... Great, great, great, great stuff.

[Cratter]

Where's the Urban Myers of college hockey hiding?

[GDPritch]

The problem is who...and would they improve the results? Two things about Hakstol that nobody can argue with, he's been able to consistently recruit the best players in the country and he's been able to gain momentum almost every year going into the playoffs, although unfortunately it has fallen a game or two short. Could we realistically expect a new coach to be able to do those things? It would be a real risk unless there was somebody really proven looking to move, but those kind of guys don't jump around much. 

 

It's not like we're talking about a coach who has stunk it up for 10 years, he wins at about a .650 clip and gets to the tournament every year, that's what makes it hard to think about replacing him. I'm as sick as anyone about these last 10 years and losing games to BC midgets and Michigan unconscious goalies and .6 Goofs and now BU PP's, I've about frickin had it with these NCAA letdowns, but I'm old enough to have gone through 2 stretches of real bad Sioux hockey teams and I have to tell you there is nothing worse than living through 6 or 7 years of that, and I'd hate to lose a coach who knows how to win games and risk being mediocre or worse again for a while.

 

I don't know what the answer is, I don't believe in jinxes but the Curse of the Bambino seems to be on this team right now.

Agree 100%.  I'm being partially glib but is it the curse of the anti-nickname crowd against the new Ralph?  I may be wrong but no natty since winning it all in 2000 (correct?) and moving into the new Ralph in 01 yet we've had arguably (up for debate, I realize being we haven't won a natty) since then maybe the best run 15 year continuous run ever for  Fighting Sioux hockey ever (minus a natty, I hear ya!).  Yes, Hak's had a terrible NCAA run luck-wise but even Dean had some really good teams 01 - 04 that seemed to hit a bad/unlucky streak in those 4 seasons. Not into karma (good or bad) but just saying.  I mean, the way our luck has gone these last 15 years in the NCAA tourney, despite playing better than the other teams in well over half the games we've lost to end the season, with all the strange things going on it's really getting to be like WTH is going on here?   

[GDPritch]

John Fox was fired after leading his team to a Super Bowl and NFCCG in back to back seasons. 

 

Why?  Because he couldn't close the deal!  And in Denver it's Superbowl or bust.   Not too crazy to expect the same with arguably the best college hockey team in the nation year in and year out. 

 

We should be in the frozen four.  Too much talent year after year not to be in it.  Like someone else said...most of us could have gotten some of these teams to the frozen four.  Time to hire someone who can WIN one. 

Football is a much different game, even in a one and done scenario.  In the playoffs in football I would venture to say the best team OR team that plays best wins 90% of the time.  In one and done college hockey I would say that might be at best 65% maybe?  And in football the "best" team during the regular season gets to play all games at home except for neutral site Super Bowl.  That certainly ain't the case in college hockey.  Completely different scenario, game, conditions and circumstances.  Can't compare the two, not apples v apples.

[tnt]

Agree 100%. I'm being partially glib but is it the curse of the anti-nickname crowd against the new Ralph? I may be wrong but no natty since winning it all in 2000 (correct?) and moving into the new Ralph in 01 yet we've had arguably (up for debate, I realize being we haven't won a natty) since then maybe the best run 15 year continuous run ever for Fighting Sioux hockey ever (minus a natty, I hear ya!). Yes, Hak's had a terrible NCAA run luck-wise but even Dean had some really good teams 01 - 04 that seemed to hit a bad/unlucky streak in those 4 seasons. Not into karma (good or bad) but just saying. I mean, the way our luck has gone these last 15 years in the NCAA tourney, despite playing better than the other teams in well over half the games we've lost to end the season, with all the strange things going on it's really getting to be like WTH is going on here?

Curse of Brad Schlossman. So now, not only do we have to confront the question, is it nice to be in it every year with the chance to win it sooner or later, but is the great coverage Schlossman gives us, worth the possibility that he is cursing us with his presence at the Frozen Four!?

[Cratter]

Football is a much different game, even in a one and done scenario.  In the playoffs in football I would venture to say the best team OR team that plays best wins 90% of the time.  In one and done college hockey I would say that might be at best 65% maybe?  And in football the "best" team during the regular season gets to play all games at home except for neutral site Super Bowl.  That certainly ain't the case in college hockey.  Completely different scenario, game, conditions and circumstances.  Can't compare the two, not apples v apples.

This is probably a guess because there's never a "best of" in football to prove otherwise.

[GDPritch]

The high amount of passion here indicates how much people care about this program.  There is no doubt that Hak has recruited well and he and his teams work their butts off.  Given the tournament success of his two predecessors, the million dollar question is - are we just the most unlucky program ever, or is there something we need to change?  The games we have lost usually have a series of bad bounces, odd penalties, and weak goals - on the other hand in almost every game we get less than stellar goalie play and start out behind.  I wish I knew the answer.  I don't have any idea what is causing this.  I do know that every frozen 4 year I have high expectations based on a different reason - this year we have a Hoby Baker finalist goalie or this year we have the best defense in the nation, or this year we have the best line in the country, or this year we are going in on a roll.  Doesn't matter - results are the same and it is frustrating. I'll be the first to admit that I don't have any idea what needs to change.  I'm not in the fire Hak group, but as we see on this board, Sioux fans are not really the type to hang participation banners.  I hope Hak figures it out soon.   

well put Irish. I'm in the same boat thought-wise as you.

[Cratter]

Ralph always said luck was when preparation meets opportunity.

[GDPritch]

What would the dynasty look like if the boys were playing DIII hockey? I only state that because the quality of players at the true pinnacle of college football is very different than those that play at UND and Bison level right now. I realize the Bison have come in and beat some FBS schools, bit they aren't exactly playing Alabama, Florida Ohio State, LSU, and USC.

Reminder to all that ndsu is playing at lower tier D1-AA ftbl level (they're damn good at it, I grant you that) with few NFL draft picks and not at the top tier college hockey level with NHL picks filling rosters.  Not apples to apples. 

[Cratter]

Reminder to all that ndsu is playing at lower tier D1-AA ftbl level (they're damn good at it, I grant you that) with few NFL draft picks and not at the top tier college hockey level with NHL picks filling rosters. Not apples to apples.

They still play against teams with the same amount of scholarships and teams within the same classification like UND hockey.

It would be like Omaha who just started hockey in 1997 suddenly start dominating college hockey.